Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
- Thread starter Cdn Blackshirt
- Start date
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(Obtained by CBC)
F
fraserdw
Guest
There was an Op Ed piece in the Saint John paper 2 months ago by a Commander who was on the Sub procurement team. Basically, he said the PMO forced these subs on the navy. I spoke with a CWO who is my cousin and he said the standing joke is that the subs should be re-named the HMCS Jean Cretin (sic), HMCS Paul Martin and HMCS Bill Graham to ensure a proper tribute is paid to that decision!
FSTO
Army.ca Veteran
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Evan Solomon spins the conspiracy theory.; "They took her out at NIGHT!!!";" Only a 1 page report on the BOI"; "Sailors lives at RISK!". CBC thinks it has uncovered the smoking gun.
But Rear Admiral Norman quickly deflates the CBC balloon.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/02/13/ns-hmcs-corner-brook-damage.html
God I love it when the CBC looks like idiots. :nod:
But Rear Admiral Norman quickly deflates the CBC balloon.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/02/13/ns-hmcs-corner-brook-damage.html
God I love it when the CBC looks like idiots. :nod:
- Reaction score
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Fact Sheet
Royal Canadian Navy Submarines: Fleet Status
RCN FS 12.001 - February 17, 2012
Victoria-class Achievements
The Canadian Victoria-class submarine fleet has been actively sailing since 2003 and has accumulated approximately 900 days at sea, participating in exercises at home and overseas, patrolling our coastal areas including the Arctic and participating in international operations. Highlights of the Victoria-class achievements are as follows:
Both HMC Submarines Windsor and Corner Brook have participated in multiple personnel and team training activities.
HMCS Windsor sailed from June 2005 to December 2006 and spent 146 days at sea in 2006 alone. The boat participated in a number of large US-Canadian exercises and advanced and improved special operations forces capabilities, while training with Canadian ships in essential warfare skills. Windsor participated in the first-ever parachute rendezvous at sea practiced with Canada's Patrol Pathfinders (Canadian Army paratroopers). The boat also conducted several sovereignty patrols off Canada's east coast for intelligence gathering, surveillance and reconnaissance.
HMCS Corner Brook spent 463 days at sea between October 2006 and mid-June 2011. The boat participated in various NATO and Canada/U.S. exercises where she received high praise for her contribution as a simulated enemy to assist in the training of NATO and US surface and air forces. Corner Brook deployed to the Arctic in support of Operation NANOOK in August 2007 and again in August 2009, where she participated in a counter-narcotics exercise and conducted covert surveillance patrols in the vicinity of Baffin Island. In March 2008 and again in 2011, the boat also deployed as part of Operation CARIBBE, a US-led, multi-national effort to interdict drug trafficking in the waters of the Caribbean Basin and the Eastern Pacific.
Submarine Fleet Status
Canada’s submarine fleet is scheduled to achieve full operational capability in 2013; at which point Canada will have three of four submarines available for operations including a high readiness submarine available in both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. As part of the ongoing submarine operational cycle, the fourth submarine will rotate into an Extended Docking Work Period (EDWP). An EDWP is a deep maintenance period that provides the submarines’ 200-plus systems with the repairs, maintenance, and upgrades needed to enable six years of effective operation. The current status of the Victoria-class fleet is as follows:
HMCS Chicoutimi
Chicoutimi is currently in an EDWP. This work is being conducted under the Victoria In-Service Support Contract (VISSC) at Victoria Shipyards Co. Ltd. in Esquimalt, B.C. The work is scheduled to be complete in time for the submarine to be available for operations in 2013.
HMCS Corner Brook
In spring 2011, Corner Brook transited from CFB Halifax to CFB Esquimalt to prepare for the submarine’s VISSC EDWP, to be conducted at Victoria Shipyards Co. Ltd in Esquimalt, B.C. by Babcock Canada Inc.
On June 4, 2011, Corner Brook ran aground while conducting submerged manoeuvres during submarine officer training in the vicinity of Nootka Sound on the west coast of Vancouver Island.
On June 10, 2011, a Board of Inquiry (BOI) was convened to gain a clear understanding of the circumstances surrounding the grounding of Corner Brook. The mandate of the BOI was to investigate the cause and contributing factors that may have led to the grounding of Corner Brook, and to identify preventative measures, if any.
A schematic of HMCS Corner Brook.
Additional information about the Corner Brook grounding incident and BOI is accessible here (news release) and here (BOI Executive Summary).
The full extent of the damage to Corner Brook will be assessed during her ongoing Extended Limited Maintenance Period (ELMP). This period of minimal maintenance is programmed to primarily arrest system degradation while the submarine awaits her turn in deep maintenance known as an Extended Docking Work Period (EDWP). The actual repairs to the submarine will occur during the scheduled EDWP at Victoria Shipyards Co. Ltd, which is to commence in January 2013.
Due to contractual and program management reasons relating to DND's In-Service Support Contract, only one submarine at a time is to be in deep maintenance. Corner Brookwill therefore be maintained at the minimum level necessary, as she awaits her scheduled EDWP, which will occur upon completion of Chicoutimi’s EDWP.
HMCS Victoria
Victoria was undocked on April 18, 2011 and began a series of in-harbour tests and trials which included training to conduct operational torpedo firings. Concurrently, the submarine’s crew conducted personnel training and exercises.
In November 2011, Victoria officially completed its VISSC EDWP at DND Fleet Maintenance Facility (FMF) Cape Breton in Esquimalt, B.C. Victoria’s EDWP was the first refit and maintenance activity of this type and intensity ever undertaken on a Victoria-class submarine. The valuable lessons learned from this first EDWP are being applied to subsequent activities. A previous dent located in Victoria’s hull was repaired during her EDWP and there are no diving restrictions on the submarine.
In December 2011, Victoria proceeded to sea to conduct equipment trials and crew training during which she successfully completed the Surfaced Safety phase of her readiness certification.
In January 2012, Victoria conducted the first dive of this operational cycle as well as the submarine’s Dived Safety phase of her workups. Concurrently, the submarine conducted additional post-EDWP sea acceptance trials.
Current planning would see Victoria authorized to fire torpedoes, the crew certified, and both being declared fully operational in 2012. This process is known as a Tiered Readiness Program or TRP for short.
HMCS Windsor
Windsor’s EDWP is expected to be complete in 2012. The work is being performed at Fleet Maintenance Facility Cape Scott in Halifax, NS. HMCS Windsor would then follow a Tiered Readiness Program similar to that of Victoria and be declared fully operational in 2013.
The following table provides a general overview of the current status of Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) Victoria-class submarines:
Submarines EDWP (Extended Docking Work Period) Ready for operational employment Next Scheduled EDWP
(Extended Docking Work Period)
HMCS
VICTORIA 2005 - 2011 2012 2016 - 2018
HMCS
WINDSOR 2007 - 2012 2013 2018 - 2020
HMCS
CHICOUTIMI 2010 - 2012 2013 2020 - 2022
HMCS
CORNER BROOK 2013 - 2015 2016 2022 - 2024
Information about the above table
All dates are approximate as schedules can change according to the needs of the RCN.
A Victoria-class submarine is considered to have achieved operational status when it has been materially certified (successful completion of alongside tests and trials); manned with a qualified & experienced crew; and has been deemed safe to sail, conduct trials and execute operations in accordance with their readiness status.
The extent of a submarine’s capability is fundamentally a product of the states of personnel, materiel and collective team training resident within it. Once operational, a Victoria-class submarine will undergo a period of sea training to either achieve Standard Readiness (i.e. capable of conducting core naval training and executing assigned CF continental and expeditionary missions that do not entail the possibility of high intensity, full spectrum combat) or High Readiness (capable of conducting the full-spectrum of combat operations).
Victoria In-Service Support Contract (VISSC)
In 2008, Treasury Board approved the expenditure of up to $1.5 billion over a period of up to 15 years for the in-service support for the Victoria-class submarines. DND is currently in the first five year option of this support, contracted to the Canadian Submarine Management Group, now renamed Babcock Canada Inc. All Victoria-class EDWP's during this in-service support contract will be funded and managed through VISSC.
Given that submarines are amongst the most highly complex machines that exist, maintaining them can be a costly process. Highly rigorous and regularly scheduled maintenance periods are an essential element of the operational cycle of any class of submarine.
Royal Canadian Navy Submarines: Fleet Status
RCN FS 12.001 - February 17, 2012
Victoria-class Achievements
The Canadian Victoria-class submarine fleet has been actively sailing since 2003 and has accumulated approximately 900 days at sea, participating in exercises at home and overseas, patrolling our coastal areas including the Arctic and participating in international operations. Highlights of the Victoria-class achievements are as follows:
Both HMC Submarines Windsor and Corner Brook have participated in multiple personnel and team training activities.
HMCS Windsor sailed from June 2005 to December 2006 and spent 146 days at sea in 2006 alone. The boat participated in a number of large US-Canadian exercises and advanced and improved special operations forces capabilities, while training with Canadian ships in essential warfare skills. Windsor participated in the first-ever parachute rendezvous at sea practiced with Canada's Patrol Pathfinders (Canadian Army paratroopers). The boat also conducted several sovereignty patrols off Canada's east coast for intelligence gathering, surveillance and reconnaissance.
HMCS Corner Brook spent 463 days at sea between October 2006 and mid-June 2011. The boat participated in various NATO and Canada/U.S. exercises where she received high praise for her contribution as a simulated enemy to assist in the training of NATO and US surface and air forces. Corner Brook deployed to the Arctic in support of Operation NANOOK in August 2007 and again in August 2009, where she participated in a counter-narcotics exercise and conducted covert surveillance patrols in the vicinity of Baffin Island. In March 2008 and again in 2011, the boat also deployed as part of Operation CARIBBE, a US-led, multi-national effort to interdict drug trafficking in the waters of the Caribbean Basin and the Eastern Pacific.
Submarine Fleet Status
Canada’s submarine fleet is scheduled to achieve full operational capability in 2013; at which point Canada will have three of four submarines available for operations including a high readiness submarine available in both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. As part of the ongoing submarine operational cycle, the fourth submarine will rotate into an Extended Docking Work Period (EDWP). An EDWP is a deep maintenance period that provides the submarines’ 200-plus systems with the repairs, maintenance, and upgrades needed to enable six years of effective operation. The current status of the Victoria-class fleet is as follows:
HMCS Chicoutimi
Chicoutimi is currently in an EDWP. This work is being conducted under the Victoria In-Service Support Contract (VISSC) at Victoria Shipyards Co. Ltd. in Esquimalt, B.C. The work is scheduled to be complete in time for the submarine to be available for operations in 2013.
HMCS Corner Brook
In spring 2011, Corner Brook transited from CFB Halifax to CFB Esquimalt to prepare for the submarine’s VISSC EDWP, to be conducted at Victoria Shipyards Co. Ltd in Esquimalt, B.C. by Babcock Canada Inc.
On June 4, 2011, Corner Brook ran aground while conducting submerged manoeuvres during submarine officer training in the vicinity of Nootka Sound on the west coast of Vancouver Island.
On June 10, 2011, a Board of Inquiry (BOI) was convened to gain a clear understanding of the circumstances surrounding the grounding of Corner Brook. The mandate of the BOI was to investigate the cause and contributing factors that may have led to the grounding of Corner Brook, and to identify preventative measures, if any.
A schematic of HMCS Corner Brook.
Additional information about the Corner Brook grounding incident and BOI is accessible here (news release) and here (BOI Executive Summary).
The full extent of the damage to Corner Brook will be assessed during her ongoing Extended Limited Maintenance Period (ELMP). This period of minimal maintenance is programmed to primarily arrest system degradation while the submarine awaits her turn in deep maintenance known as an Extended Docking Work Period (EDWP). The actual repairs to the submarine will occur during the scheduled EDWP at Victoria Shipyards Co. Ltd, which is to commence in January 2013.
Due to contractual and program management reasons relating to DND's In-Service Support Contract, only one submarine at a time is to be in deep maintenance. Corner Brookwill therefore be maintained at the minimum level necessary, as she awaits her scheduled EDWP, which will occur upon completion of Chicoutimi’s EDWP.
HMCS Victoria
Victoria was undocked on April 18, 2011 and began a series of in-harbour tests and trials which included training to conduct operational torpedo firings. Concurrently, the submarine’s crew conducted personnel training and exercises.
In November 2011, Victoria officially completed its VISSC EDWP at DND Fleet Maintenance Facility (FMF) Cape Breton in Esquimalt, B.C. Victoria’s EDWP was the first refit and maintenance activity of this type and intensity ever undertaken on a Victoria-class submarine. The valuable lessons learned from this first EDWP are being applied to subsequent activities. A previous dent located in Victoria’s hull was repaired during her EDWP and there are no diving restrictions on the submarine.
In December 2011, Victoria proceeded to sea to conduct equipment trials and crew training during which she successfully completed the Surfaced Safety phase of her readiness certification.
In January 2012, Victoria conducted the first dive of this operational cycle as well as the submarine’s Dived Safety phase of her workups. Concurrently, the submarine conducted additional post-EDWP sea acceptance trials.
Current planning would see Victoria authorized to fire torpedoes, the crew certified, and both being declared fully operational in 2012. This process is known as a Tiered Readiness Program or TRP for short.
HMCS Windsor
Windsor’s EDWP is expected to be complete in 2012. The work is being performed at Fleet Maintenance Facility Cape Scott in Halifax, NS. HMCS Windsor would then follow a Tiered Readiness Program similar to that of Victoria and be declared fully operational in 2013.
The following table provides a general overview of the current status of Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) Victoria-class submarines:
Submarines EDWP (Extended Docking Work Period) Ready for operational employment Next Scheduled EDWP
(Extended Docking Work Period)
HMCS
VICTORIA 2005 - 2011 2012 2016 - 2018
HMCS
WINDSOR 2007 - 2012 2013 2018 - 2020
HMCS
CHICOUTIMI 2010 - 2012 2013 2020 - 2022
HMCS
CORNER BROOK 2013 - 2015 2016 2022 - 2024
Information about the above table
All dates are approximate as schedules can change according to the needs of the RCN.
A Victoria-class submarine is considered to have achieved operational status when it has been materially certified (successful completion of alongside tests and trials); manned with a qualified & experienced crew; and has been deemed safe to sail, conduct trials and execute operations in accordance with their readiness status.
The extent of a submarine’s capability is fundamentally a product of the states of personnel, materiel and collective team training resident within it. Once operational, a Victoria-class submarine will undergo a period of sea training to either achieve Standard Readiness (i.e. capable of conducting core naval training and executing assigned CF continental and expeditionary missions that do not entail the possibility of high intensity, full spectrum combat) or High Readiness (capable of conducting the full-spectrum of combat operations).
Victoria In-Service Support Contract (VISSC)
In 2008, Treasury Board approved the expenditure of up to $1.5 billion over a period of up to 15 years for the in-service support for the Victoria-class submarines. DND is currently in the first five year option of this support, contracted to the Canadian Submarine Management Group, now renamed Babcock Canada Inc. All Victoria-class EDWP's during this in-service support contract will be funded and managed through VISSC.
Given that submarines are amongst the most highly complex machines that exist, maintaining them can be a costly process. Highly rigorous and regularly scheduled maintenance periods are an essential element of the operational cycle of any class of submarine.
- Reaction score
- 68
- Points
- 680
Schematic of HMCS Corner Brook
The following Victoria-class Submarine schematic depicts the general impact area on the bow of Her Majesty's Canadian Submarine (HMCS) Corner Brook as a result of a grounding incident. Corner Brook ran aground while conducting submerged manoeuvres during submarine officer training in the vicinity of Nootka Sound on the west coast of Vancouver Island on June 4, 2011.
The BLUE area represents damage to Corner Brook's fibreglass bow dome which covers the sonar array that is external to the pressure hull. An initial "in-water" damage assessment indicated some damage to the fibreglass bow dome, which could mean that there may be damage to the sonar array it contains as well as a minor leak in a forward ballast tank. The watertight integrity of the submarine, specifically the pressure hull, remained intact and at no time were the crew in danger after the grounding incident.
A determination of the full extent of the damage will be made during the upcoming docked Extended Limited Maintenance Period (ELWP). The repairs themselves will be performed during Corner Brook's scheduled Victoria In-Service Support Contact (VISSC) Extended Docking Work Period (EDWP) at Victoria Shipyards Co. Ltd., commencing in 2013, upon completion of HMCS Chicoutimi's EDWP.
The following Victoria-class Submarine schematic depicts the general impact area on the bow of Her Majesty's Canadian Submarine (HMCS) Corner Brook as a result of a grounding incident. Corner Brook ran aground while conducting submerged manoeuvres during submarine officer training in the vicinity of Nootka Sound on the west coast of Vancouver Island on June 4, 2011.
The BLUE area represents damage to Corner Brook's fibreglass bow dome which covers the sonar array that is external to the pressure hull. An initial "in-water" damage assessment indicated some damage to the fibreglass bow dome, which could mean that there may be damage to the sonar array it contains as well as a minor leak in a forward ballast tank. The watertight integrity of the submarine, specifically the pressure hull, remained intact and at no time were the crew in danger after the grounding incident.
A determination of the full extent of the damage will be made during the upcoming docked Extended Limited Maintenance Period (ELWP). The repairs themselves will be performed during Corner Brook's scheduled Victoria In-Service Support Contact (VISSC) Extended Docking Work Period (EDWP) at Victoria Shipyards Co. Ltd., commencing in 2013, upon completion of HMCS Chicoutimi's EDWP.
drunknsubmrnr
Sr. Member
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This looks a lot worse than it really is.
We occasionally banged the Oberons off of the bottom or the jetty as well. It's not the end of the world.
We occasionally banged the Oberons off of the bottom or the jetty as well. It's not the end of the world.
- Reaction score
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Lookit how busy HMCS Victoria is!
RCN Info-machine, 20 Feb 12
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20 February, 2012
ESQUIMALT, BRITISH COLUMBIA
HMCS Victoria transits in the vicinity of Esquimalt during sea training trials and exercises on February 20, 2012.
Her Majesty’s Canadian Submarine (HMCS) Victoria conducted diving operations today in the local waters near Victoria, B.C. Today’s dive was witnessed by General Walt Natynczyk, Chief of the Defence Staff, and Vice-Admiral Paul Maddison, Commander, Royal Canadian Navy.
HMCS Victoria is currently at sea conducting equipment trials and crew training such that the submarine can be declared fully operational in 2012.
Photo Jacek Szymanski, Navy Public Affairs, © 2012 DND-MDN Canada
ESQUIMALT, BRITISH COLUMBIA
HMCS Victoria transits in the vicinity of Esquimalt during sea training trials and exercises on February 20, 2012.
Her Majesty’s Canadian Submarine (HMCS) Victoria conducted diving operations today in the local waters near Victoria, B.C. Today’s dive was witnessed by General Walt Natynczyk, Chief of the Defence Staff, and Vice-Admiral Paul Maddison, Commander, Royal Canadian Navy.
HMCS Victoria is currently at sea conducting equipment trials and crew training such that the submarine can be declared fully operational in 2012.
Photo Jacek Szymanski, Navy Public Affairs, © 2012 DND-MDN Canada
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Here is the video 
Image Tech, Jacek Szymanski, collected footage from the VIC day sail on Monday. Attached is a link to the B-Roll being distributed to the media today via the Combat Camera web site.
http://vimeo.com/37181280
I hope the rain gear the CDS has is a trial set. I wouldn't wear the pusser stuff either.
Image Tech, Jacek Szymanski, collected footage from the VIC day sail on Monday. Attached is a link to the B-Roll being distributed to the media today via the Combat Camera web site.
http://vimeo.com/37181280
I hope the rain gear the CDS has is a trial set. I wouldn't wear the pusser stuff either.
- Reaction score
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Interesting video and neat to see how the subs operate. Don't know much about subs but I couldn't help but notice some of the conning/engine orders the CO was giving near the end of the video. Just curious but is the general/standard format of conning orders on subs different from surface ships?
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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US floats nuclear subs option
John Kerin
US ambassador Jeffrey Bleich says Washington views Australia’s subs program as crucial to security in the Asia-Pacific region. Photo: Andrew Meares
“All options are being considered other than nuclear propulsion which the government has ruled out,” says Defence Minister Stephen Smith. Photo: Alex Ellinghausen
Senior Lowy Institute fellow Alan Dupont says a nuclear submarine would meet all the requirements of the 2009 defence white paper. Photo: Justin McManus
Virginia class at a glance
Type: Attack submarine
Cost: $2.5 billion
Displacement: 7900 metric tonnes (submerged)
Length: 240 metres
Beam: 10 metres
Propulsion: S9G reactor
Speed: 25+ knots (46km/h)
Range: unlimited
Crew: 135
Armament: 12 Tomahawk cruise missiles, 4 533mm torpedo tubes
Built: 2000 - present
Active: 8
Planned: 30
Ships in class include: Virginia, Texas, Hawaii, North Carolina, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Missouri, California, Mississippi, Minnesota, North Dakota, John Warner
The United States has indicated for the first time it would be willing to lease or sell a nuclear submarine to Australia in a move that will inflame tensions with China and force the Coalition to declare its policy on bolstering regional defence.
US Ambassador to Australia Jeffrey Bleich told The Australian Financial Review yesterday that whichever option Canberra pursued as a replacement for its Collins class submarines, Washington viewed Australia’s subs program as crucial to security in the Asia-Pacific region.
“Decisions about the design of the Australian submarine are up to Australia’s leaders, including whether they pursue diesel power or nuclear power,” Mr Bleich said. “Whatever they decide the US is willing to help.’’
His comments suggest the US would be open to discussing nuclear submarine technologies with Australia at a time of severe budget constraints here and in the US, despite Defence Minister Stephen Smith restating Labor’s opposition to any nuclear submarine purchase. But Australian sources maintain they have been told by opposition figures that Coalition leader Tony Abbott will consider the nuclear option if he wins an election due in 2013.
Opposition defence spokesman David Johnston has gone as far as saying the Coalition would support Labor if it sought to examine the nuclear submarine option. Neither Mr Abbott’s office nor Mr Johnston were prepared to comment on Mr Bleich’s intervention last night
But leading defence analysts, including former Liberal minister Peter Reith, have urged both sides of politics to consider nuclear subs.
A senior Defence source said Australia would probably be able to buy a 7500 tonne Virginia Class submarine for around $2.5 billion, but because it would come off a mature production line its price would reduce over time.
Labor has been considering the purchase of 12 conventional submarines to replace the Collins, with an Australian designed and built option costing up to $36 billion, or $3 billion each.
Respected senior Lowy Institute fellow Alan Dupont told the Financial Review that given what was at stake, “no option should be ruled out’’.
“If you are talking about spending $36 billion on a replacement for the Collins class then why shouldn’t the nuclear option be put under the microscope?’’ Dr Dupont said. “A nuclear submarine would meet all the requirements of the 2009 defence white paper and go beyond them.’’
Former prime minister Kevin Rudd’s 2009 defence white paper, predicated on the potential threat posed by China, called for 12 submarines, much larger than the Collins class – around 4000 tonnes compared to the current 3050 tonnes.
They were to be armed with torpedoes, cruise missiles, mini-subs for special forces and state of the art combat and communication systems.
Kokoda Foundation founder Ross Babbage, a proponent of the nuclear submarine option, said a smaller fleet of nuclear powered boats would serve Australia better than any available conventional submarine. “You would not need 12, you could probably get away with 9 or 10, they are much larger than a conventional sub, can carry more weapons and would have far greater range and endurance than a conventional sub,’’ he said.
“It would also be great step forward in terms of Australia’s interoperability with the United States.’’
Though the idea has been criticised as unworkable because Australia doesn’t have a nuclear industry to support a nuclear submarine fleet defence sources suggest the Australian fleet could be maintained at a US base in the Pacific Ocean or a US nuclear submarine base could be established in Australia.
Mr Smith will take a submission to Cabinet within weeks to fund the concept design phase of the future conventional submarine project.
The government has approached three European conventional submarine builders about off-the-shelf options including Spanish based Navantia which builds the S-80, French based DCNS which builds the Scorpene and German based HDW which builds the Type 212 and Type 214 submarines.
All three subs have been dismissed as too small to meet Australia’s requirements but each manufacturer is understood to have also proposed larger 4000 tonne submarine designs.
Mr Smith told an Australian Defence Magazine conference on Tuesday all options for a conventional submarine from a proven fully military off the shelf design though to a completely new submarine were under consideration.
“All options are being considered other than nuclear propulsion which the government has ruled out.”
John Kerin
US ambassador Jeffrey Bleich says Washington views Australia’s subs program as crucial to security in the Asia-Pacific region. Photo: Andrew Meares
“All options are being considered other than nuclear propulsion which the government has ruled out,” says Defence Minister Stephen Smith. Photo: Alex Ellinghausen
Senior Lowy Institute fellow Alan Dupont says a nuclear submarine would meet all the requirements of the 2009 defence white paper. Photo: Justin McManus
Virginia class at a glance
Type: Attack submarine
Cost: $2.5 billion
Displacement: 7900 metric tonnes (submerged)
Length: 240 metres
Beam: 10 metres
Propulsion: S9G reactor
Speed: 25+ knots (46km/h)
Range: unlimited
Crew: 135
Armament: 12 Tomahawk cruise missiles, 4 533mm torpedo tubes
Built: 2000 - present
Active: 8
Planned: 30
Ships in class include: Virginia, Texas, Hawaii, North Carolina, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Missouri, California, Mississippi, Minnesota, North Dakota, John Warner
The United States has indicated for the first time it would be willing to lease or sell a nuclear submarine to Australia in a move that will inflame tensions with China and force the Coalition to declare its policy on bolstering regional defence.
US Ambassador to Australia Jeffrey Bleich told The Australian Financial Review yesterday that whichever option Canberra pursued as a replacement for its Collins class submarines, Washington viewed Australia’s subs program as crucial to security in the Asia-Pacific region.
“Decisions about the design of the Australian submarine are up to Australia’s leaders, including whether they pursue diesel power or nuclear power,” Mr Bleich said. “Whatever they decide the US is willing to help.’’
His comments suggest the US would be open to discussing nuclear submarine technologies with Australia at a time of severe budget constraints here and in the US, despite Defence Minister Stephen Smith restating Labor’s opposition to any nuclear submarine purchase. But Australian sources maintain they have been told by opposition figures that Coalition leader Tony Abbott will consider the nuclear option if he wins an election due in 2013.
Opposition defence spokesman David Johnston has gone as far as saying the Coalition would support Labor if it sought to examine the nuclear submarine option. Neither Mr Abbott’s office nor Mr Johnston were prepared to comment on Mr Bleich’s intervention last night
But leading defence analysts, including former Liberal minister Peter Reith, have urged both sides of politics to consider nuclear subs.
A senior Defence source said Australia would probably be able to buy a 7500 tonne Virginia Class submarine for around $2.5 billion, but because it would come off a mature production line its price would reduce over time.
Labor has been considering the purchase of 12 conventional submarines to replace the Collins, with an Australian designed and built option costing up to $36 billion, or $3 billion each.
Respected senior Lowy Institute fellow Alan Dupont told the Financial Review that given what was at stake, “no option should be ruled out’’.
“If you are talking about spending $36 billion on a replacement for the Collins class then why shouldn’t the nuclear option be put under the microscope?’’ Dr Dupont said. “A nuclear submarine would meet all the requirements of the 2009 defence white paper and go beyond them.’’
Former prime minister Kevin Rudd’s 2009 defence white paper, predicated on the potential threat posed by China, called for 12 submarines, much larger than the Collins class – around 4000 tonnes compared to the current 3050 tonnes.
They were to be armed with torpedoes, cruise missiles, mini-subs for special forces and state of the art combat and communication systems.
Kokoda Foundation founder Ross Babbage, a proponent of the nuclear submarine option, said a smaller fleet of nuclear powered boats would serve Australia better than any available conventional submarine. “You would not need 12, you could probably get away with 9 or 10, they are much larger than a conventional sub, can carry more weapons and would have far greater range and endurance than a conventional sub,’’ he said.
“It would also be great step forward in terms of Australia’s interoperability with the United States.’’
Though the idea has been criticised as unworkable because Australia doesn’t have a nuclear industry to support a nuclear submarine fleet defence sources suggest the Australian fleet could be maintained at a US base in the Pacific Ocean or a US nuclear submarine base could be established in Australia.
Mr Smith will take a submission to Cabinet within weeks to fund the concept design phase of the future conventional submarine project.
The government has approached three European conventional submarine builders about off-the-shelf options including Spanish based Navantia which builds the S-80, French based DCNS which builds the Scorpene and German based HDW which builds the Type 212 and Type 214 submarines.
All three subs have been dismissed as too small to meet Australia’s requirements but each manufacturer is understood to have also proposed larger 4000 tonne submarine designs.
Mr Smith told an Australian Defence Magazine conference on Tuesday all options for a conventional submarine from a proven fully military off the shelf design though to a completely new submarine were under consideration.
“All options are being considered other than nuclear propulsion which the government has ruled out.”
John Ivison: Sinking Canada’s troubled sub program at budget time may make fiscal sense
Article Link
John Ivison Feb 28, 2012
There are signs the worst fears of federal public servants and Canada’s military will not be realized in a budget the Finance Minister, Jim Flaherty, has promised will be “moderate” and “not Draconian.”
Word circulating within government is that the budget will cut around $5-billion from federal operating costs. The size of the federal bureaucracy will be reduced by around 25,000 to 30,000 jobs (out of more than 350,000) but that will be done over a period of three years — and around half of those positions will be eliminated by attrition.
If this proves to be the extent of the cuts, it will come as something of a relief to unions that have been bracing for double that number of job losses. It seems certain that Conservative austerity measures won’t come close to the 45,000 positions made redundant by Paul Martin in his 1995 budget (although his generous early retirement and early departure packages meant there were few involuntary layoffs, which may not be the case this time around.)
Nowhere will the relief be more palpable than in the Department of National Defence, where there have been fears that the Royal Canadian Navy’s submarine program is in danger of being deep-sixed. The good news for them is that sources suggest the submarine fleet will survive Mr. Flaherty’s budget axe.
Yet, the budget is not yet set in stone and perhaps Mr. Flaherty should think again. There is a good argument to be made that he could save hundreds of millions of dollars by shutting down a program that has been plagued by poor judgment and bad luck for more than a decade.
The Liberal government bought four second-hand subs for $750-million from the British in 1998 and renamed them the Victoria class — HMCS Victoria, HMCS Windsor, HMCS Chicoutimi and HMCS Corner Brook.
Since then, billions more have been spent trying to “Canadianize” the subs, including thousands of dollars blown trying to stop pigeons roosting in them, such is the length of time they have been in dry-dock. At various times over the past 10 years, the whole fleet has been out of commission.
More on link
Article Link
John Ivison Feb 28, 2012
There are signs the worst fears of federal public servants and Canada’s military will not be realized in a budget the Finance Minister, Jim Flaherty, has promised will be “moderate” and “not Draconian.”
Word circulating within government is that the budget will cut around $5-billion from federal operating costs. The size of the federal bureaucracy will be reduced by around 25,000 to 30,000 jobs (out of more than 350,000) but that will be done over a period of three years — and around half of those positions will be eliminated by attrition.
If this proves to be the extent of the cuts, it will come as something of a relief to unions that have been bracing for double that number of job losses. It seems certain that Conservative austerity measures won’t come close to the 45,000 positions made redundant by Paul Martin in his 1995 budget (although his generous early retirement and early departure packages meant there were few involuntary layoffs, which may not be the case this time around.)
Nowhere will the relief be more palpable than in the Department of National Defence, where there have been fears that the Royal Canadian Navy’s submarine program is in danger of being deep-sixed. The good news for them is that sources suggest the submarine fleet will survive Mr. Flaherty’s budget axe.
Yet, the budget is not yet set in stone and perhaps Mr. Flaherty should think again. There is a good argument to be made that he could save hundreds of millions of dollars by shutting down a program that has been plagued by poor judgment and bad luck for more than a decade.
The Liberal government bought four second-hand subs for $750-million from the British in 1998 and renamed them the Victoria class — HMCS Victoria, HMCS Windsor, HMCS Chicoutimi and HMCS Corner Brook.
Since then, billions more have been spent trying to “Canadianize” the subs, including thousands of dollars blown trying to stop pigeons roosting in them, such is the length of time they have been in dry-dock. At various times over the past 10 years, the whole fleet has been out of commission.
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Oldgateboatdriver
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Snakedoc said:
Assuming you are referring to the "slow astern main motor" sentence, the answer to your question is: no, the format is standard, its just that those are parts of the standard orders you don't hear often when your a skimmer person.
Our standard format provides for identification of engines or motors or trusters, depending on what drives you: A submarine is propelled, in all mode, by its electrical motor - hence the order refers to it that way - for MCDV's, it is "trusters", not engines, which is reserved for diesel, steam and gas turbines propelling a ship through gearbox and shafts only.
As for the "main" as opposed to "both" or port/starboard, it is standard for single propeller ships (that is used on AOR's for instance - as in "stop main engine".
Journalists sub-par on sub debate
March 3, 2012 - 4:29am By TIM DUNNE
Article Link
When New York Times writer Paul Krugman observed, "The people who talk the most understand the least," he could easily have been thinking about some Canadian television reporters and commentators as they breathlessly told of the damage to the submarine HMCS Corner Brook.
The boat struck bottom in 45 metres of water near Nootka Sound on western Vancouver Island, June 4 of last year, cutting a four-by-five-metre hole in the boat’s front. CBC TV News showed "exclusive" photographs and alluded to efforts by the Royal Canadian Navy to covertly raise the vessel out of the water "under cover of darkness."
Last week, CBC Newsworld’s Power Panel, comprising CBC’s national affairs journalist and representatives of several communications and government relations agencies, spoke about Canada’s four submarines that "basically don’t work," "that have always been broken," and that "haven’t been able to deploy or deploy properly."
Missing from the debate was that the damage was to the front of the submarine’s fibreglass casing. Four metres inside the damaged casing is the pressure hull, made of 3.8-centimetre HY 80 steel, and this is the main compartment where the crew and controls are located. While the vessel is in the water, the space between the casing and the pressure hull is flooded.
The special high yield (HY) steel alloy is designed to military specification to allow submarines to withstand the pressures of deep dives. This special steel has a yield stress of 80,000 pounds per square inch, corresponding to a depth of about 1,800 feet. While the casing was damaged, the pressure hull, able to withstand incredible stresses, was untouched.
There have been questions about why the navy took the ship out of the water at 4 a.m., "under cover of darkness." The RCN’s deputy commander, Rear-Admiral Mark Norman, explained that the 3,500-tonne submarine was raised out of the water on the navy’s syncrolift, timed to take advantage of high tide and to minimize water turbulence from other vessel traffic in the harbour.
There were suggestions that the navy was reluctant to release information about the accident.
The grounding happened on June 4 and the RCN issued a news release the following day, announcing that the submarine "struck bottom while conducting submerged manoeuvres during advanced submarine officer training." The board of inquiry, convened on June 10 to investigate the matter, released its results on Dec. 16.
Canada’s submarine community could be forgiven for their disappointment at the level of ignorance demonstrated by some commentators about the employment and deployment of our Victoria-class submarines. These vessels, an essential component of the RCN’s fleet, have actively contributed to the navy’s exercises and operations, accumulating some 900 days at sea since they came into service in 2003.
HMCS Windsor spent 146 days at sea in 2006 alone, and participated in several large U.S.-Canada training activities and exercises, and conducted several sovereignty patrols off Canada’s East Coast for intelligence gathering, surveillance and reconnaissance.
HMCS Corner Brook spent 463 days at sea from October 2006 until her June 4 accident. She participated in various NATO and Canada-U.S. exercises, and deployed to the Arctic in 2007 and again in August 2009, where she conducted a counter-narcotics exercise and covert surveillance patrols near Baffin Island. In 2008 and 2011, the boat deployed to the Caribbean Basin and the Eastern Pacific as part of Operation CARIBBE, a U.S.-led, multinational effort to interdict drug trafficking.
HMCS Corner Brook’s grounding should not be trivialized. It was a serious incident and had the potential to be a tragedy. However, commentators should not overstate the accident and ignore the important contributions which Canada’s submarines make to training, sovereignty and prevention of drug trafficking.
The accident was the result of human error, not the submarine’s systems. The boat’s commanding officer was reassigned ashore, indicating a loss of confidence in his ability to exercise sound judgment.
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March 3, 2012 - 4:29am By TIM DUNNE
Article Link
When New York Times writer Paul Krugman observed, "The people who talk the most understand the least," he could easily have been thinking about some Canadian television reporters and commentators as they breathlessly told of the damage to the submarine HMCS Corner Brook.
The boat struck bottom in 45 metres of water near Nootka Sound on western Vancouver Island, June 4 of last year, cutting a four-by-five-metre hole in the boat’s front. CBC TV News showed "exclusive" photographs and alluded to efforts by the Royal Canadian Navy to covertly raise the vessel out of the water "under cover of darkness."
Last week, CBC Newsworld’s Power Panel, comprising CBC’s national affairs journalist and representatives of several communications and government relations agencies, spoke about Canada’s four submarines that "basically don’t work," "that have always been broken," and that "haven’t been able to deploy or deploy properly."
Missing from the debate was that the damage was to the front of the submarine’s fibreglass casing. Four metres inside the damaged casing is the pressure hull, made of 3.8-centimetre HY 80 steel, and this is the main compartment where the crew and controls are located. While the vessel is in the water, the space between the casing and the pressure hull is flooded.
The special high yield (HY) steel alloy is designed to military specification to allow submarines to withstand the pressures of deep dives. This special steel has a yield stress of 80,000 pounds per square inch, corresponding to a depth of about 1,800 feet. While the casing was damaged, the pressure hull, able to withstand incredible stresses, was untouched.
There have been questions about why the navy took the ship out of the water at 4 a.m., "under cover of darkness." The RCN’s deputy commander, Rear-Admiral Mark Norman, explained that the 3,500-tonne submarine was raised out of the water on the navy’s syncrolift, timed to take advantage of high tide and to minimize water turbulence from other vessel traffic in the harbour.
There were suggestions that the navy was reluctant to release information about the accident.
The grounding happened on June 4 and the RCN issued a news release the following day, announcing that the submarine "struck bottom while conducting submerged manoeuvres during advanced submarine officer training." The board of inquiry, convened on June 10 to investigate the matter, released its results on Dec. 16.
Canada’s submarine community could be forgiven for their disappointment at the level of ignorance demonstrated by some commentators about the employment and deployment of our Victoria-class submarines. These vessels, an essential component of the RCN’s fleet, have actively contributed to the navy’s exercises and operations, accumulating some 900 days at sea since they came into service in 2003.
HMCS Windsor spent 146 days at sea in 2006 alone, and participated in several large U.S.-Canada training activities and exercises, and conducted several sovereignty patrols off Canada’s East Coast for intelligence gathering, surveillance and reconnaissance.
HMCS Corner Brook spent 463 days at sea from October 2006 until her June 4 accident. She participated in various NATO and Canada-U.S. exercises, and deployed to the Arctic in 2007 and again in August 2009, where she conducted a counter-narcotics exercise and covert surveillance patrols near Baffin Island. In 2008 and 2011, the boat deployed to the Caribbean Basin and the Eastern Pacific as part of Operation CARIBBE, a U.S.-led, multinational effort to interdict drug trafficking.
HMCS Corner Brook’s grounding should not be trivialized. It was a serious incident and had the potential to be a tragedy. However, commentators should not overstate the accident and ignore the important contributions which Canada’s submarines make to training, sovereignty and prevention of drug trafficking.
The accident was the result of human error, not the submarine’s systems. The boat’s commanding officer was reassigned ashore, indicating a loss of confidence in his ability to exercise sound judgment.
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Sub in refit to get wet for first time in 5 years; HMCS Windsor faces sea trials till at least September
The Chronicle-Herald
DATE: 2012.04.10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HMCS WINDSOR, the submarine undergoing a multimillion-dollar refit in Halifax, will touch water Wednesday morning for the first time in five years, The Chronicle Herald has learned.
"This is a huge milestone," military affairs writer Tim Dunne said in an interview Monday about the Windsor's undocking.
The process is to begin at 6 a.m., with the boat being lowered extremely slowly into Halifax Harbour over a six-hour period that's set to coincide with the tide going out. It will be 20 years almost to the day since the Royal Navy launched the submarine as HMS Unicorn on April 16, 1992.
Once the vessel is fully in the water, two tugboats will tow it over to an outdoor jetty in preparation for sea trials, which are expected to last until at least September.
The navy says the sub is scheduled to be operational by early next year.
Rear Admiral David Gardam is expected to attend Wednesday's event, and about one-third of the 53-member crew will be on board as the vessel is undocked.
The Windsor entered dry dock in 2007 after spending 146 days at sea the year before, taking part in training exercises with the U.S. navy and conducting sovereignty patrols off the East Coast, gathering intelligence and conducting surveillance and reconnaissance.
The navy was unable to do an interview Monday. While it has not said what the refit has cost, there are reports the $17-million budget for 2010 topped out at $47 million.
With dryland tests now complete aboard the Windsor, all systems have been certified as working properly, clearing the way for Wednesday's undocking.
The sub now sits on chocks on a Syncrolift, a dock that raises and lowers. At 6 a.m., the lift, powered by 34 motors, will begin lowering the 2,400-tonne submarine into the water.
The vessel is expected to be floating by noon, when the tide will be fully out and the water will likely be calm.
Divers will pull the chocks away and two tugs will haul the Windsor to a jetty near the battery shop, where it will be tied up so that more equipment can be tested while wet. Two periscopes will be installed and fuel added, allowing the engines to run for the first time since the sub entered dry dock.
HMCS Windsor is one of four submarines Canada bought from Britain for an initial purchase price of $750 million in 1998. Collectively, the four have spent 900 days at sea since coming into service in Canada in 2003, though their tenure has been marred by accidents and bad press.
HMCS Corner Brook struck bottom in 45 metres of water near Nootka Sound off western Vancouver Island last June, cutting a hole in the sub's outer fibreglass casing. Before that, it had taken part in NATO and Canada-U.S. training exercises, two deployments to the Arctic and two deployments with a U.S.-led multinational anti-drug operation, one in the Caribbean and the other in the Eastern Pacific.
HMCS Victoria is ahead of the Windsor in its refit and has just completed its second set of torpedo firings during sea trials off Canada's West Coast.
The fourth sub, HMCS Chicoutimi, caught fire during its maiden voyage in 2004, killing Lt. Chris Saunders, 32. It is undergoing a refit in Victoria and is expected to be operational next year.
While a number of critics don't agree, Dunne said Canada, with its almost 250,000 kilometres of coastline, needs a submarine fleet to protect its sovereignty, fight the drug trade and provide a valuable training platform for both the Canadian navy and its allies.
"The things a submarine has going for it is its stealth, its endurance and its deployability," said Dunne, who is writing an article for Vanguard, a trade magazine for Canada's defence and security industries, on why Canada needs submarines.
"They can choose when to disclose their presence, they don't have to disclose their presence, and they're virtually undetectable in the water," he said.
In fact, 40 countries worldwide have 450 submarines. North Korea and India have aggressive submarine construction programs and China added 13 subs to its fleet from 2002 to 2004, for a total of 31 new subs in a 10-year period ending in 2005.
Canada has diesel-electric subs. When they switch to battery power, "they are absolutely silent," Dunne said, while the nuclear-powered subs the Americans and British are using generate noise. Dunne said that makes Canada extremely attractive to those countries when they want to conduct anti-submarine warfare training.
"There's such a lack of knowledge about what the submarines are and what they're doing and why they're needed," he said.
"Not only are they worth the expense, if we have to buy four new submarines, we could expect to spend $5 billion to $6 billion. We bought four slightly used Upholder-class submarines for $750 million. With the refit work, there are estimates they cost upwards of $2 billion. That's still a far cry from $5 billion to $6 billion."
And submarines are, by nature, more expensive than ships because they have to safely operate underwater. In this case, expenses were compounded because they sat dockside in England for four years before Canada bought them.
"Submarines are second only to the space shuttle in complexity," Dunne said, and safety requirements demand more stringent testing and trials. "They are not taking any chances when it comes to safety."
Sub in refit to get wet for first time in 5 years; HMCS Windsor faces sea trials till at least September
The Chronicle-Herald
DATE: 2012.04.10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HMCS WINDSOR, the submarine undergoing a multimillion-dollar refit in Halifax, will touch water Wednesday morning for the first time in five years, The Chronicle Herald has learned.
"This is a huge milestone," military affairs writer Tim Dunne said in an interview Monday about the Windsor's undocking.
The process is to begin at 6 a.m., with the boat being lowered extremely slowly into Halifax Harbour over a six-hour period that's set to coincide with the tide going out. It will be 20 years almost to the day since the Royal Navy launched the submarine as HMS Unicorn on April 16, 1992.
Once the vessel is fully in the water, two tugboats will tow it over to an outdoor jetty in preparation for sea trials, which are expected to last until at least September.
The navy says the sub is scheduled to be operational by early next year.
Rear Admiral David Gardam is expected to attend Wednesday's event, and about one-third of the 53-member crew will be on board as the vessel is undocked.
The Windsor entered dry dock in 2007 after spending 146 days at sea the year before, taking part in training exercises with the U.S. navy and conducting sovereignty patrols off the East Coast, gathering intelligence and conducting surveillance and reconnaissance.
The navy was unable to do an interview Monday. While it has not said what the refit has cost, there are reports the $17-million budget for 2010 topped out at $47 million.
With dryland tests now complete aboard the Windsor, all systems have been certified as working properly, clearing the way for Wednesday's undocking.
The sub now sits on chocks on a Syncrolift, a dock that raises and lowers. At 6 a.m., the lift, powered by 34 motors, will begin lowering the 2,400-tonne submarine into the water.
The vessel is expected to be floating by noon, when the tide will be fully out and the water will likely be calm.
Divers will pull the chocks away and two tugs will haul the Windsor to a jetty near the battery shop, where it will be tied up so that more equipment can be tested while wet. Two periscopes will be installed and fuel added, allowing the engines to run for the first time since the sub entered dry dock.
HMCS Windsor is one of four submarines Canada bought from Britain for an initial purchase price of $750 million in 1998. Collectively, the four have spent 900 days at sea since coming into service in Canada in 2003, though their tenure has been marred by accidents and bad press.
HMCS Corner Brook struck bottom in 45 metres of water near Nootka Sound off western Vancouver Island last June, cutting a hole in the sub's outer fibreglass casing. Before that, it had taken part in NATO and Canada-U.S. training exercises, two deployments to the Arctic and two deployments with a U.S.-led multinational anti-drug operation, one in the Caribbean and the other in the Eastern Pacific.
HMCS Victoria is ahead of the Windsor in its refit and has just completed its second set of torpedo firings during sea trials off Canada's West Coast.
The fourth sub, HMCS Chicoutimi, caught fire during its maiden voyage in 2004, killing Lt. Chris Saunders, 32. It is undergoing a refit in Victoria and is expected to be operational next year.
While a number of critics don't agree, Dunne said Canada, with its almost 250,000 kilometres of coastline, needs a submarine fleet to protect its sovereignty, fight the drug trade and provide a valuable training platform for both the Canadian navy and its allies.
"The things a submarine has going for it is its stealth, its endurance and its deployability," said Dunne, who is writing an article for Vanguard, a trade magazine for Canada's defence and security industries, on why Canada needs submarines.
"They can choose when to disclose their presence, they don't have to disclose their presence, and they're virtually undetectable in the water," he said.
In fact, 40 countries worldwide have 450 submarines. North Korea and India have aggressive submarine construction programs and China added 13 subs to its fleet from 2002 to 2004, for a total of 31 new subs in a 10-year period ending in 2005.
Canada has diesel-electric subs. When they switch to battery power, "they are absolutely silent," Dunne said, while the nuclear-powered subs the Americans and British are using generate noise. Dunne said that makes Canada extremely attractive to those countries when they want to conduct anti-submarine warfare training.
"There's such a lack of knowledge about what the submarines are and what they're doing and why they're needed," he said.
"Not only are they worth the expense, if we have to buy four new submarines, we could expect to spend $5 billion to $6 billion. We bought four slightly used Upholder-class submarines for $750 million. With the refit work, there are estimates they cost upwards of $2 billion. That's still a far cry from $5 billion to $6 billion."
And submarines are, by nature, more expensive than ships because they have to safely operate underwater. In this case, expenses were compounded because they sat dockside in England for four years before Canada bought them.
"Submarines are second only to the space shuttle in complexity," Dunne said, and safety requirements demand more stringent testing and trials. "They are not taking any chances when it comes to safety."
