Status on Victoria-class Submarines?

[Stoker]

I think Chief Stoker meant that some submariners are there because the boats don't sail much, not general service personnel avoiding boats because they sail too much. I could be wrong, after all I was never one of the "elite" just a "skimmer".  If you ever want to know how superior a submariner is, just ask him, he'll tell you...over and over. ;D

Thanks that's exactly what I meant. I have heard many of the elite brag on exactly how little sea time they exactly did. Nature of their service I guess, free hotel rooms and all. >

 

[MSEng314]

The Victoria Class has a fixed crew size due to escape capacities (PM me with your forces.gc.ca address and I will explain more fully if you wish).  Ergo there isn't bunk space to do trades training such as HOD packages.  It would work better for you to do your AILS, AILV, etc and then start sailing aboard a boat while the knowledge is fresh.

The STO at MOG 5 could explain in more detail - drop down to '4 Trap' on NC Jetty and ask around.

Yeah I understand that subs are not like surface ships and that the space for trainees onboard is very limited, it's just frustrating to get briefings saying that we need more people to volunteer for training, and then when I ask about it I'm told basically "come back in a couple years when you're more qualified." Oh well, like I said, I'll just keep working hard at my current posting, and maybe someday when the stars align I'll be able to do it.

 

[The Bread Guy]

According to the attached written response to an MP's question, here's the latest estimates re:  when the subs'll be back at 'er: 

.... The Victoria-class will achieve steady-state in the second half of 2013, at which point Canada will have two submarines available for operations, one each on the Atlantic and Pacific Coasts.  The third operational submarine will be available at a lower level of readiness and will be employed for tasks such as crew training and domestic operations.......

• HMCS VICTORIA returned to sea in December 2011.
• HMCS WINDSOR will complete her Extended Docking Work Period and begin sailing in mid-2012.
• HMCS CHICOUTIMI will complete her Extended Docking Work Period and begin sailing in 2013.
• HMCS CORNER BROOK will enter an Extended Docking Work Period in 2013 (on completion of HMCS CHICOUTIMI's Extended Docking Work Period) and return to the fleet in 2016.

(....)

 

[SeaDog]

I'd like to make two points.  First off, Lex Parsimoniae is correct.  To further add to his response, it is not only a question of bunking.  Even though a person may become a submariner, they are still required to advance within their individual trade.  If certain trade quals are not met prior to joining boats, it will be harder to load you on a career course in the future (which may be surface-centric) in order to advance in your trade.

The second item I would like to address is Chief Stoker's comments about sea time.  I have never heard any submariner brag about not having to sail.  Since I've joined submarines I have sailed as often, if not more than I did on skimmers. Even with only having one boat running, I've still managed to put to sea, as a minimum, for about 4-6 months a year. Although you hear much in the media about submarines being "not operational", please do not confuse that with not being at sea. By operational they are referring to weapons readiness. In one recent year alone COR conducted work ups, a trip across the Atlantic, several international exercises, an arctic sovereignty patrol and an operational narcotics interdiction patrol.  In one year. In fact COR got the CDS unit commendation.  We all know guys who avoid sea-time.  I've seen my share of "NATO knee" when I was in the surface world - and yet I would avoid making sweeping assertions about malingering there. As for the hotels - I'll start feeling guilty about hotels in foreign port (and SA - can't forget the SA) when subs get fitted with cabins, email, internet connectivity at sea, television sattelite, satellite telephones, beer machines, the ability to do laundry, toilets that don't require you dissecting your own feces with a high-power salt water gun, and enough fresh water to shower everyday.   

 

[Occam]

These may be of interest to those following the thread:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/agged/6726453711/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/agged/6726454055/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/agged/6726454387/

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Interesting pictures. Glad to see how well the crash bulkhead held up.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

Interesting pictures. Glad to see how well the crash bulkhead held up.

Still...Must have seemed like the end of the world for those on board. Wow. I read the story but first pics I've seen.

 

[Hurricane]

What happened to the Corner Brook?

 

[Occam]

What happened to the Corner Brook?

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/marpac/4/4-w_eng.asp?id=1159

 

[Fishbone Jones]

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/marpac/4/4-w_eng.asp?id=1159

So, reading that, the sub travels in a kind of bubble. The skin of the bubble is it's outer wall of protection or limit of contact. That bubble's position in space is a guessimate based on the three planes (X,Y,Z). The larger, and more frequent, the hazards, the bigger the bubble. The bubble expands exponentially the longer the sub is under and the further it travels.

Have I got that right?

 

[Pat in Halifax]

You're thinking about this way too hard!!
It's Friday - Give it a rest!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You're thinking about this way too hard!!
It's Friday - Give it a rest!

In the man cave with the wood stove going and the wine open. No problem. 8)

 

[Occam]

So, reading that, the sub travels in a kind of bubble. The skin of the bubble is it's outer wall of protection or limit of contact. That bubble's position in space is a guessimate based on the three planes (X,Y,Z). The larger, and more frequent, the hazards, the bigger the bubble. The bubble expands exponentially the longer the sub is under and the further it travels.

Have I got that right?

More or less.  You start off with a known position based on an accurate fix, or a GPS reading.  The various sensors (gyros, accelerometers, etc.) have known error factors.  The longer you travel without another accurate fix being made, the greater the effect of those error factors will have on the pool of errors.  It's not exponential, but it is cumulative.

If you're on a heading of 000 degrees at a given speed, with sensors that are accurate to +/- 10 degrees over a known distance, then after a unit of time, you could be on a heading ranging from 350 to 010.  After two units of time, you could be on a heading of 340 through 020.  That gives you the possible angular error, which widens as you travel.  You would also get an error from speed, which would give you a minimum/maximum distance traveled over a given period of time.  Draw a circle between the angular and the distance errors and you get the pool of error circle.  Travel more, the circle gets bigger.  That's a rough and dirty way of illustrating it - gyros and accelerometers are a lot more accurate than that, but the errors do become significant - obviously.  ;D

 

[Stoker]

I'd like to make two points.  First off, Lex Parsimoniae is correct.  To further add to his response, it is not only a question of bunking.  Even though a person may become a submariner, they are still required to advance within their individual trade.  If certain trade quals are not met prior to joining boats, it will be harder to load you on a career course in the future (which may be surface-centric) in order to advance in your trade.

The second item I would like to address is Chief Stoker's comments about sea time.  I have never heard any submariner brag about not having to sail.  Since I've joined submarines I have sailed as often, if not more than I did on skimmers. Even with only having one boat running, I've still managed to put to sea, as a minimum, for about 4-6 months a year. Although you hear much in the media about submarines being "not operational", please do not confuse that with not being at sea. By operational they are referring to weapons readiness. In one recent year alone COR conducted work ups, a trip across the Atlantic, several international exercises, an arctic sovereignty patrol and an operational narcotics interdiction patrol.  In one year. In fact COR got the CDS unit commendation.  We all know guys who avoid sea-time.  I've seen my share of "NATO knee" when I was in the surface world - and yet I would avoid making sweeping assertions about malingering there. As for the hotels - I'll start feeling guilty about hotels in foreign port (and SA - can't forget the SA) when subs get fitted with cabins, email, internet connectivity at sea, television sattelite, satellite telephones, beer machines, the ability to do laundry, toilets that don't require you dissecting your own feces with a high-power salt water gun, and enough fresh water to shower everyday.   

There are exceptions to everything I guess and sailors complain and boast. Yes I have heard plenty of submariners boast about the amount of sea time they have done. I also have plenty of experience working with submariners as well.
I do realize that the creature comforts on a Victoria class are spartan, but a hell a lot better than the O Boats were. Yes there are spurts of actual sea time for the subs and hopefully they will spend more time at sea in the future, but the operational history and actual sea time from the delivery and as of today is not very impressive.
If we had lots of cash, ships, boats ,personnel etc I would say have at er however with the state of the navy is in with less than 1000 days at sea in 14 years and they haven't even fired a torpedo yet.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

In the man cave with the wood stove going and the wine open. No problem. 8)

I am actually on IR here in Ottawa. In my "cell", I have gathered the necessities: 15 cans of Kieths, a bag of Doritos, wings (from Loblaws) in the oven and "A Bridge Too Far" in the BR disc player! Game on!
BTW-I sent those pics to submariner freinds-They had not seen them and one of these guys was noticebly upset.
As for the comments and this may give away my identity, I worked in the early '90s at the now defunct First Canadian Submarine Squadron (Yes, I still have that patch on an old WD jacket) and I cannot see that group fitting into your group of people who do not want to sail. A unique breed-yes, but from that point on in my career, I have always held this group of individuals in highest regard-They do the shit that, frankly, I don't want to do.
To them I say, get ready guys-I suspect your operational seatime is about to increase dramatically in to the next 12-18 months...and to them I say, you have my support and undying respect.
BTW, if you guys are still trying to figure out who I am, I used to paint the crests and make the mahogany backings with a certain MS HT. (...Or as someone else already said: "Pat, we figured out long ago who you were!")
Good Luck! 

 

[Occam]

BTW-I sent those pics to submariner freinds-They had not seen them and one of these guys was noticebly upset.

I'm getting the impression that it was pretty easy to keep everything out of view - until they put her up on the VSL lift.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

If you're on a heading of 000 degrees at a given speed, with sensors that are accurate to +/- 10 degrees over a known distance, then after a unit of time, you could be on a heading ranging from 350 to 010.  After two units of time, you could be on a heading of 340 through 020. 

Not quite, Occam. It's hard enough to comprehend for a poor soldier like Recceguy , we should not make it even harder. With a known error, the angle differential remains constant so long as you steer on that heading. Thus, after two units of time, your heading is still within the error of 350 to 010, but the area of error generated has doubled in width.

To picture what is happening, imagine that on a chart, you draw a line going north (000) starting at a known point and, based on set speed, using a drawing compass, mark a point on that line where you will be after a certain unit of time (yes, it is a DR position - going basic here for non navigation types). from your original point, you then draw a line to the left at a 10 degree angle (thus 350) and the same to the right (for the 010). You then take you compass again and draw an arc joining the right and left heading error lines at the place you expect to be for that unit of time at the speed minus error distance - then the same at the speed plus error distance. That is your pool of error. Where it gets more complicated is when you change course and speed as the errors now all have to be accounted for from the corners of the pool of error.

As for depth, the rule is, quite simply, never dive below the shallowest sounding-plus-safety-margin found within the pool of error.

 

[jollyjacktar]

HMCS Corner Brook collision damage extensive
HMCS Corner Brook hit the ocean floor off B.C. in June 2011
CBC News
Posted: Feb 13, 2012 5:03 PM AT
Last Updated: Feb 13, 2012 4:40 PM AT

The damage done to HMCS Corner Brook last summer when it hit the ocean floor was more extensive than first reported, CBC News has learned by obtaining exclusive pictures of the submarine.  The Canadian navy admitted that the submarine crashed off British Columbia in June, but it never described the amount of damage or released a photograph.
"I was gobsmacked. I had no idea that this level of damage had occurred," said Senator Colin Kenny, the former head of the Senate defence committee. "That may explain why the navy took it out of the water at night." 

The submarine's damage was "horrific," Kenny said, and he worries about the state of Canada's submarine fleet and about the 60 sailors who were aboard.  "I think the psychological impact of what can be described as a near-death experience would have a profound effect on some of these individuals. I hope they are getting the care and support that they need," he added.

The submarine hit the bottom when it was 45 metres below the surface. The navy's official board of inquiry blamed Lt.-Cmdr. Paul Sutherland, the sub's captain, for the collision.
The navy released a one-page summary of the board's report on the accident. When asked about the pictures CBC News acquired, officials would only say the damage is being assessed.  Kenny said the navy's response was not good enough.

Canada bought four used British subs more than a decade ago and so far, it has spent an estimated $3 billion on the fleet.  HMCS Chicoutimi was struck by a deadly fire just hours into its first voyage under a Canadian flag.  HMCS Victoria has a dented hull and is restricted from diving deep.  HMCS Windsor has been dismantled in Halifax, with its refit years behind schedule and millions of dollars over budget.  Not one submarine is capable of firing a torpedo.

The navy wouldn't comment further to CBC News about the damage to HMCS Corner Brook, but some familiar with the submarine say the sub's pressure hull, the area in which the sailors are housed, may be heavily damaged and that would mean the sub will never go to sea again.  "Canada needs a submarine fleet, and to have this boat not be available would be tragic," Kenny said

Two photos at story link.  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/02/13/ns-hmcs-corner-brook-damage.html

 

[The Bread Guy]

Interesting phrasing from the story:

.... The damage done to HMCS Corner Brook last summer when it hit the ocean floor was more extensive than first reported, CBC News has learned by obtaining exclusive pictures of the submarine ....

I wouldn't consider photos posted to a public Flickr stream all that "exclusive".

 

[aesop081]

Kenny said the navy's response was not good enough.

:

What should they have said, Mr. Kenny ?

Interesting phrasing from the story:I wouldn't consider photos posted to a public Flickr stream all that "exclusive".

That's the kind of journalism $1B gets you..........