Sept 2023 UKR Vet Recognition Incident (merged from several threads)

[FJAG]

More about former 14th Waffen SS Division members in Canada, and the awkwardness of university endowments in their names. I also wasn’t aware that we gave a Nazi soldier the Order of Canada back in the 80s.

I think that one has to be very careful of how one uses the words "Nazi soldier" when talking about someone who fought for the Axis. Having fought for the Axis is not synonymous with "war criminal".

After the war Canada accepted hundreds of thousands of Germans and Italians (who fought under another fascist, Mussolini). That was mostly because at the time Canada wanted the standard white Christian immigrant to swell its society (as can be seen by the mass internment of Japanese-Canadians during the war). Ten's of thousands of those had fought in WW2. My father was one of them. He fought for Germany and Germany, at the time was ruled by the Nazi party. He fought defending Sicily from invasion and was captured there and spent the last two years of the war as a POW in Scotland. When he applied to immigrate his family to Canada, he was welcomed with open arms by a country that he had fought against a mere dozen years before - a time when feelings and memories of the war were still raw.

For some reason, almost eighty years after the war ended, we have jumped into a phase of moral outrage because of this Hunka incident. For some reason the masses seem to want to equate "German soldier" with "Nazi soldier" and "war criminal". I spent 44 years in the Canadian Army many of them under a Liberal government, but never for a minute considered myself a "Liberal soldier". I doubt any of us do.

I think that we need to clearly separate the concept of a "German soldier" - even non-Germans in the Waffen SS (remember too that Waffen SS is not synonymous with SS)- as being synonymous with being a war criminal. If one finds one who actually was involved in war crimes, by all means, hang the bastard out to dry., but let's stop generalizing.

I guess Canadians aren't satisfied with tearing down statues of John A anymore and need to find something new to vent on.

 

[Remius]

New speaker has been chosen. LPC Greg Fergus.

 

[The Bread Guy]

And vice president of the federal Progressive Conservative Party. Oops.

To be scrupulously fair, not the first (or last) party faithful community-supporting professional type to be recognized by the party and/or community of the day, no matter the colour of team jersey in Ottawa.

 

[brihard]

I think that one has to be very careful of how one uses the words "Nazi soldier" when talking about someone who fought for the Axis. Having fought for the Axis is not synonymous with "war criminal".

After the war Canada accepted hundreds of thousands of Germans and Italians (who fought under another fascist, Mussolini). That was mostly because at the time Canada wanted the standard white Christian immigrant to swell its society (as can be seen by the mass internment of Japanese-Canadians during the war). Ten's of thousands of those had fought in WW2. My father was one of them. He fought for Germany and Germany, at the time was ruled by the Nazi party. He fought defending Sicily from invasion and was captured there and spent the last two years of the war as a POW in Scotland. When he applied to immigrate his family to Canada, he was welcomed with open arms by a country that he had fought against a mere dozen years before - a time when feelings and memories of the war were still raw.

For some reason, almost eighty years after the war ended, we have jumped into a phase of moral outrage because of this Hunka incident. For some reason the masses seem to want to equate "German soldier" with "Nazi soldier" and "war criminal". I spent 44 years in the Canadian Army many of them under a Liberal government, but never for a minute considered myself a "Liberal soldier". I doubt any of us do.

I think that we need to clearly separate the concept of a "German soldier" - even non-Germans in the Waffen SS (remember too that Waffen SS is not synonymous with SS)- as being synonymous with being a war criminal. If one finds one who actually was involved in war crimes, by all means, hang the bastard out to dry., but let's stop generalizing.

I guess Canadians aren't satisfied with tearing down statues of John A anymore and need to find something new to vent on.

I didn’t say “war criminal”, I said “Nazi”. I think based on the Waffen SS practice swearing loyalty to Hitler personally that describing a volunteer Waffen SS veteran as a “Nazi soldier” is fair, and I’m comfortable standing by that based on the available information. I cannot speak to what the case would have been for other elements of the German armed forces, nor would I extend that same logic automatically to conscripts.

 

[OldSolduer]

I didn’t say “war criminal”, I said “Nazi”. I think based on the Waffen SS practice swearing loyalty to Hitler personally that describing a volunteer Waffen SS veteran as a “Nazi soldier” is fair, and I’m comfortable standing by that based on the available information. I cannot speak to what the case would have been for other elements of the German armed forces, nor would I extend that same logic automatically to conscripts.

And I agree that most common soldiers in the Wehrmacht were not Nazis but loyal Germans. The SS were a different lot and its interesting to note that at the outset Himmler had standards about who was eligible to join the SS. Interestingly enough Hitler, Himmler and other Nazis would not have passed the entrance tests. The SS swore allegiance to Der Fuerher and as such in essence was a private Nazi Army.
And we are not the only ones who took in Nazis after WW2 - the NASA rocket program was headed by a German who had a huge hand in designing the V1 and V2.

 

[FSTO]

If I understand my Ukrainian friends and associates there is a divide between, essentially, the Ukrainians who escaped the Tsars and those who escaped Stalin. Different views, different churches, different parties.

My mom's family were German Mennonites from the Southern Ukraine region who came to Manitoba in the 1870's. They were escaping the Tsar and conscription (Catherine the Great granted the Mennonites freedom from conscription) but the more wealthy ones stayed in the Ukraine and then came to Canada once the Bolsheviks took their land. There is still division within that community on the Prairies to this day.

Never Forget, Never Forgive.

 

[OldSolduer]

My mom's family were German Mennonites from the Southern Ukraine region who came to Manitoba in the 1870's. They were escaping the Tsar and conscription (Catherine the Great granted the Mennonites freedom from conscription) but the more wealthy ones stayed in the Ukraine and then came to Canada once the Bolsheviks took their land. There is still division within that community on the Prairies to this day.

Never Forget, Never Forgive.

And the Ukranian/Russian conflicts aren't the only ones.....Serb/Croat/Bosnian among others.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Let the hair splitting commence....

Head of Canadian Ukrainian group defends Nazi-linked vet lauded as hero​

Jurij Klufas says the veteran is being treated unfairly and that countries, including Canada, have cleared his division of war crimes

Head of Canadian Ukrainian group defends Nazi-linked vet lauded as hero

Jurij Klufas says the veteran is being treated unfairly and that countries, including Canada, have cleared his division of war crimes.

nationalpost.com

 

[mariomike]

- the NASA rocket program was headed by a German who had a huge hand in designing the V1 and V2.

Even wrote a song about him.

Several Bomber Command squadrons were specifically trained to carry out reprisal gas attacks against Germany. But, Eisenhower convinced Churchill that this would not be a good idea.
Harris said that even at maximum intensity V-Weapons could do less damage than a single Bomber Command attack against a German city.
Bomber Command was compelled to divert bombers to ineffectual counter-attacks against them.

My uncle participated in the bombing ( 125 Lancasters ) of the Domleger V weapon site.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I think that we need to clearly separate the concept of a "German soldier" - even non-Germans in the Waffen SS (remember too that Waffen SS is not synonymous with SS)- as being synonymous with being a war criminal. If one finds one who actually was involved in war crimes, by all means, hang the bastard out to dry., but let's stop generalizing.

While I understand the point you were making, I disagree with your contention that "Waffen SS is not synonymous with SS". How can "not the same" apply to a part of the same organization? It would be like saying that the Royal Canadian Navy is not part of the Canadian Armed Forces (as much as some would like that to be).

Who is, or is not (or should be) a "criminal" for being a member of the Waffen SS was described by the Nuremberg Tribunal. They dealt with the various entities of the SS and how each contributed to the the activities that were being judged.

The Avalon Project : Judgment : The Accused Organizations

avalon.law.yale.edu

The SS originally contained two other formations, the SS Verfuegungstruppe, a force consisting of SS members who volunteered for four years armed service in lieu of compulsory service with the Army, and the SS Totenkopf Verbaende, special troops employed to guard concentration camps, which came under the control of the SS in 1934. The SS Verfuegungstruppe was organised as an armed unit to be employed with the Army in the event of mobilisation. In the summer of 1939, ,the Verfuegungstruppe was equipped as a motorised division to form the nucleus of the forces which came to be known in 1940 as the Waffen SS. In that year the Waffen SS comprised 100,000 men, 56,000 coming from the Verfuegungsiruppe and the rest from the Allgemeine SS and the Totenkopf Verbaende. At the end of the war it is estimated to have consisted of about 580,000 men and 40 divisions. The Waffen SS was under the tactical command of the Army, but was equipped and supplied through the administrative branches of the SS and under SS disciplinary control.

The Tribunal recognized that not everyone in the Waffen SS was there by choice, but accommodated that reality. (see Conclusions)

Until 1940 the SS was an entirely voluntary organisation. After the formation of the Waffen SS in 1940 there was a gradually increasing number of conscripts into the Waffen SS. It appears that about a third of the total number of people joining the Waffen SS were conscripts, that the proportion of conscripts was higher at the end of the war than at the beginning, but that there continued to be a high proportion of volunteers until the end of the war.

It is impossible to single out any one portion of the SS which was not involved in these criminal activities. The Allgemeine SS was an active participant in the persecution of the Jews and was used as a source of concentration camp guards. Units of the Waffen SS were directly involved in the killing of prisoners of war and the atrocities in occupied countries. It supplied personnel for the Einsatzgruppen, and had command over the concentration camp guards after its absorption of the Totenkopf SS, which originally controlled the system. Various SS Police units were also widely used in the atrocities in occupied countries and the extermination of the Jews there. The SS central organisation supervised the activities of these various formations and was responsible for such special projects as the human experiments and " final solution " of the Jewish question.

The Tribunal finds that knowledge of these criminal activities was sufficiently general to justify declaring that the SS was a criminal organisation to the extent hereinafter described. It does appear that an attempt was made to keep secret some phases of its activities, but its criminal programmes were so widespread, and involved slaughter on such a gigantic scale, that its criminal activities must have been widely known. It must be recognised, moreover, that the criminal activities of the SS followed quite logically from the principles on which it was organised. Every effort had been made to make the SS a highly disciplined organisation composed of the elite of National Socialism. Himmler had stated that there were people in Germany " who become sick when they see these black coats " and that he did not expect that " they should be loved by too many ". Himmler also indicated his view that the SS was concerned with perpetuating the elite racial stock with the object of making Europe a Germanic Continent and the SS was instructed that it was designed to assist the Nazi Government in the ultimate domination of Europe and the elimination of all inferior races. This mystic and fanatical belief in the superiority of the Nordic German developed into the studied contempt and even hatred of other races which led to criminal activities of the type outlined above being considered as a matter of course if not a matter of pride. The actions of a soldier in the Waffen SS who in September, 1939, acting entirely on his own initiative, killed fifty Jewish labourers whom he had been guarding, Were described by the statement that as an SS man, he was " particularly sensitive to the sight of Jews ", and had acted " quite thoughtlessly in a youthful spit of adventure " and a sentence of three years' imprisonment imposed on him was dropped under an amnesty. Hess wrote with truth that the Waffen SS were more suitable for the specific tasks to be solved in occupied territory owing to their extensive training in questions of race and nationality. Himmler, in a series of speeches made in 1943, indicated his pride in the ability of the SS to carry out these criminal acts. He encouraged his men to be "tough and ruthless" he spoke of shooting " thousands of leading Poles ", and thanked them for their cooperation and lack of squeamishness at the sight of hundreds and thousands of corpses of their victims. He extolled ruthlessness in exterminating the Jewish race and later described this process as " delousing". These speeches show the general attitude prevailing; the SS was consistent with these criminal acts

Conclusions

Conclusions: The SS was utilised for the purposes which were criminal under the Charter involving the persecution and extermination of the Jews, brutalities and killings in concentration camps, excesses in the administration of occupied territories, the administration of the slave labour programme and the mistreatment and murder of prisoners of war. The defendant Kaltenbrunner was a member of the SS implicated in these activities. In dealing with the SS the Tribunal includes all persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS including the members of the Allgemeine SS, members of the Waffen SS, members of the SS Totenkopf Verbaende and the members of any of the different police forces who were members of the SS. The Tribunal does not include the so-called SS riding units. The Sicherheitsdienst des Reichsfuehrer SS (commonly known as the SD) is dealt with in the Tribunal's Judgment on the Gestapo and SD.

Excluding conscripts who did not participate in war crimes.

Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS as enumerated in the preceding paragraph who became or remained members of the organisation with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter or who were personally implicated as members of the organisation in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes. The basis of this finding is the participation of the organisation in war crimes and crimes against humanity connected with the war; this group declared criminal cannot include, therefore, persons who had ceased to belong to the organisations enumerated in the preceding paragraph prior to 1st September, 1939.

I agree that not everyone who was a soldier in German uniform was a "Nazi". A good example would be the 90,000 former POWs (Poles who had been conscripted into the German Army) who made up a third of the Polish Armed Forces in the West by the end of the war.

 

[Kirkhill]

And I agree that most common soldiers in the Wehrmacht were not Nazis but loyal Germans. The SS were a different lot and its interesting to note that at the outset Himmler had standards about who was eligible to join the SS. Interestingly enough Hitler, Himmler and other Nazis would not have passed the entrance tests. The SS swore allegiance to Der Fuerher and as such in essence was a private Nazi Army.
And we are not the only ones who took in Nazis after WW2 - the NASA rocket program was headed by a German who had a huge hand in designing the V1 and V2.

Apologise for hiring an abusive ex-Nazi as our teacher, private school pupils demand​

Louis Feutren was ‘unrepentant’, according to former students at St Conleth’s College, who say he grabbed their hair and made them undress

ByJames Crisp3 October 2023 • 3:30pm

Louis Feutren, a Breton nationalist and Nazi officer, fled to Ireland after the Second World War
A private school in Dublin should apologise for employing an abusive Nazi as a teacher, former pupils have said.
They accused the ex-SS officer of humiliating and beating them, including after corporal punishment was banned in Ireland in 1982.
Louis Feutren fled to Ireland in 1945 after being sentenced to death in France following the Second World War. He taught French at St Conleth’s College from 1957 to 1985.
He was a member of a Breton nationalist group that rounded up Jews and resistance fighters for the Nazis. He died in 2009.

Apologise for hiring an abusive ex-Nazi as our teacher, private school pupils demand

Louis Feutren was ‘unrepentant’, according to former students at St Conleth’s College, who say he grabbed their hair and made them undress

www.telegraph.co.uk

Father in law was a Franco-Canadian Roman Catholic from Saskatchewan who had eleven children. Two never got married. One married a Franco-Canadian Roman Catholic from Ontario. Two married Anglo-Canadians. One married a Scottish protestant. One married the daughter of a Romanian who served in U-boats. One married the son of an Austrian doctor who served Hitler. One married a Scots-Ukrainian girl. One married a Swede. One married LDS Germano-Russian.

In Calgary, as I have said previously, I worked alongside a Fallschirmjaeger officer who was born in Hitler's embassy in Switzerland because his father was in the diplomatic service. His brother was a Colonel in the Leibstandarte. He supervised a ranker from the South Saskatchewans who he had exchanged pleasantries with on Monte Cassino. He served in Crete, Russia, Italy and was ultimately captured in the Bastogne region changing road signs and directing traffic. He became a PoW in my mother's home town where he was permitted to wear his uniform when strolling along the Ayr shore with his U boat and Luftwaffe mates. He dated my mother's best friend., daughter of a local watchmaker. She was Jewish. He and my father became friends because both of them were silly enough to think that falling out of airplanes meant that they wouldn't have to walk.

My father served in Palestine through 1947. There is a Ukrainian song that has become noteworthy - Chervona Kalyna. It references a red flower. My father's outfit was known as the Kalynyots by the locals. Many of whom were just recently out of camps in Poland and Ukraine. The English translation of Kalynyot offered was Red Poppies With Black Hearts. He wore the Red Beret. The locals compared him and his mates, especially in the press in the USA, to the SS. Often the comparison was unfavourable. Dad was never much of a fan of Ben Hecht or the movie Exodus. He cleared the hold on the "Exodus" and escorted the detainees to Cyprus where they were held in British concentration camps.

' Every time a British soldier is killed in Palestine,' wrote the American playwright Ben Hecht, 'I make a little holiday in my heart'.

My Grandfather, the father of my mother, joined the RAF as a mechanic but was invalided out with ulcers. His favourite uncle was killed in the trenches in WW1 by the Germans. He became a mechanic at Prestwick. Part of the job was swamping out blood and guts from shot up aircraft before patching the holes and replacing the engines with rebuilds. Air raids passed overhead on the way to the Glasgow docks. And yet he found time to befriend a German PoW name of Richard Schulz who was allowed out of Doonfoot to work Grampa's garden. Richard used to laugh at being taught Scots instead of English. Grampa went to the Kirk. Richard went to Kirche.

Let me know which of those people I am supposed to hate.

Cheers.

Edit - A couple more to add

The girl that I dated whose mother got her first pair of shoes from Mussolini.
The guy I worked alongside who kept a photo of his Romanian father in a black uniform on his desk and who got into vicious slanging matches with our mutual boss, a Serb.

 

[The Bread Guy]

And the Ukranian/Russian conflicts aren't the only ones.....Serb/Croat/Bosnian among others.

I remember a political scientist tell me once that it’s not unheard of for expats to “feel the fire” more hotly than those still in the old country. Then again, some old countries jump all over even non-violent dissent, so not entirely surprising.

 

[Kirkhill]

I remember a political scientist tell me once that it’s not unheard of for expats to “feel the fire” more hotly than those still in the old country. Then again, some old countries jump all over even non-violent dissent, so not entirely surprising.

I don't know ragazzo del pane. You know any expats?

 

[FJAG]

I didn’t say “war criminal”, I said “Nazi”. I think based on the Waffen SS practice swearing loyalty to Hitler personally that describing a volunteer Waffen SS veteran as a “Nazi soldier” is fair, and I’m comfortable standing by that based on the available information. I cannot speak to what the case would have been for other elements of the German armed forces, nor would I extend that same logic automatically to conscripts.

I beg to differ once again.

As of 1935, the oath for a German soldier in the Wehrmacht was to Hitler as well. A similar oath applied to civil servants

"I swear by God this holy oath
that I shall render unconditional obedience
to the Leader of the German Reich and people,
Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces,
and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared
to give my life for this oath."[8]

Not to start another rumble but Canadian soldiers swear an oath to be faithful and bear true allegiance to the King. We can argue whether that is as strong as the one to Hitler but essentially it is an oath to obey the head of state and orders as issued by those appointed over one..

And I agree that most common soldiers in the Wehrmacht were not Nazis but loyal Germans. The SS were a different lot and its interesting to note that at the outset Himmler had standards about who was eligible to join the SS. Interestingly enough Hitler, Himmler and other Nazis would not have passed the entrance tests. The SS swore allegiance to Der Fuerher and as such in essence was a private Nazi Army.
And we are not the only ones who took in Nazis after WW2 - the NASA rocket program was headed by a German who had a huge hand in designing the V1 and V2.

That's true for the "Allgemeine SS" per se. They were clearly a different group both with respect to the people they took in and what their role in society was. The term itself means "protection squadron" and grew out of a small bodyguard which later went on to take out the SA (Brownshirts) Nazi Party faithful who were becoming a perceived threat to Hitler and his elite core. They were ideology driven and clearly the main body conducting war crimes.

While I understand the point you were making, I disagree with your contention that "Waffen SS is not synonymous with SS". How can "not the same" apply to a part of the same organization? It would be like saying that the Royal Canadian Navy is not part of the Canadian Armed Forces (as much as some would like that to be).

Its simply because the Waffen SS was a separate organization from the main SS. The racial purity issue alone distinguished them. The real distinction , however, was that while Himmler had overall charge of the recruiting of the Waffen SS and that they were technically a military sub-component of the SS, once units were created, they were given under operational control to the Wehrmacht for use in combat operations rather than in racial/ethnic cleansing operations and internal security matters. It was a way of boosting the Wehrmacht's combat power using foreign nationals who were not otherwise eligible to serve in the Wehrmacht.

Who is, or is not (or should be) a "criminal" for being a member of the Waffen SS was described by the Nuremberg Tribunal. They dealt with the various entities of the SS and how each contributed to the the activities that were being judged.

The Avalon Project : Judgment : The Accused Organizations

avalon.law.yale.edu

The Tribunal recognized that not everyone in the Waffen SS was there by choice, but accommodated that reality. (see Conclusions)

Conclusions

Excluding conscripts who did not participate in war crimes.

I agree that not everyone who was a soldier in German uniform was a "Nazi". A good example would be the 90,000 former POWs (Poles who had been conscripted into the German Army) who made up a third of the Polish Armed Forces in the West by the end of the war.

Note that most of the pieces that you cite talk primarily about the "Allgemeine SS" which is the core group - for lack of a better name, the "Blackshirts" - there is absolutely no question that this group and by far most of the people in it were involved in war crimes. There is no question that the Waffen-SS grew as a small entity out of the "Allgemeine SS" to take a role in combat operations. The point, however, is that there was a rapid expansion of the Waffen SS starting in 1941, which involved taking in people who in no way shape or form would have qualified for service in the "Allgemeine SS". They were recruited for and served primarily as combat troops - mostly on the Russian front.

Would there be times when certain members or units of the Waffen SS were pressed into service on SS cleansing operations. Of course they were, just as some Wehrmacht units were as well. The degree to which they could be considered liable as war criminals is, in Canada, determined in accordance with the case of R v Finta when the court addresses the issue of the defence of obedience to de facto law v superior orders.

The defence of obedience to de facto law is not the same as obedience to superior orders. Although at times, the superior orders which a soldier receives may become part of the domestic legal system, this would not change the nature of the order as far as the soldier was concerned. He or she would still be obliged to follow the order unless it were manifestly unlawful. Thus, the removal of the automatic right to claim obedience to de facto law does not affect the defence of obedience to superior orders.

It follows that the trial judge was correct in putting the defence of obedience to military orders to the jury. In so doing he was not permitting the respondent to plead obedience to the laws of Hungary in effect at the time of the alleged actions. He reminded the jury of the expert testimony to the effect that the respondent, as a Captain of the Gendarmerie, would have been subject to the orders of General Baky. Then he instructed the jury that the Baky Order was unconstitutional according to Hungarian law, but that their task was to determine whether a reasonable person in the respondent's position would have found that the order was manifestly illegal and whether the respondent would have had a choice to obey the order or not. The trial judge did not characterize the defence as being obedience to laws of Hungary in existence at the time of the alleged offences. Rather, it was properly characterized as obedience to military orders.

I can find no fault in these instructions. Once again the situation must be considered in its context. This was a time of war. The Russian armies were approaching the borders of Hungary. Hungary was in effect an occupied state. German forces were in command and in control of the country. No matter how unlawful the Baky Order was, it was open to the jury to find that it would be difficult to expect a Captain of the Gendarmerie to disobey that order and that to the accused the Baky Order was a military order. It was in that light that his defence of obeying an order from a superior had to be considered.

In effect, in the circumstances of the times, many involved in what could constitute war crimes had no choice but to obey orders at the risk of their own lives. That is always a question of fact in each particular circumstance.

Let me be clear. I'm not excusing war crimes. All that I'm saying is that you have to judge individuals by what they did as individuals in the circumstances of the times. For many people during WW2, including Poles and Ukrainians, if you wanted to fight the communists to keep them from running amok in your country, then the Waffen SS was the only game in town. People should not be judged as war criminals simply through membership in a given organization; they need to be judged by their own actions. Some organizations make it more likely that their members were war criminals but on the scale of likelihood, the Waffen SS falls closer to the Wehrmacht than the Allgemeine SS.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I remember a political scientist tell me once that it’s not unheard of for expats to “feel the fire” more hotly than those still in the old country. Then again, some old countries jump all over even non-violent dissent, so not entirely surprising.

NORAID enters the chat. Luckily, their security was awful and they were heavily handled by the FBI as a result:

The Impact of Diasporas on the Tactics of Rebel Groups: The Case of the IRA and Noraid​

Abstract​

Do diasporas affect rebel tactics in the home country? We argue that diaspora organizations can influence tactics when rebel leaders are divided, and domestic political opportunity structures are restrictive. Drawing on a variety of primary sources, we analyze the influence of the Irish-American group Noraid on the Provisional IRA tactics during four episodes of the Troubles. When the military and political leadership of the Republican movement diverged over tactics, Noraid’s militant stance and support for Gerry Adams incentivized the simultaneous adoption of both violence and cooperation. Over time, the group also helped consolidate Adams’s leadership and overcome an organizational crisis.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1057610X.2023.2178079

 

[Kirkhill]

I beg to differ once again.

As of 1935, the oath for a German soldier in the Wehrmacht was to Hitler as well. A similar oath applied to civil servants



Not to start another rumble but Canadian soldiers swear an oath to be faithful and bear true allegiance to the King. We can argue whether that is as strong as the one to Hitler but essentially it is an oath to obey the head of state and orders as issued by those appointed over one..



That's true for the "Allgemeine SS" per se. They were clearly a different group both with respect to the people they took in and what their role in society was. The term itself means "protection squadron" and grew out of a small bodyguard which later went on to take out the SA (Brownshirts) Nazi Party faithful who were becoming a perceived threat to Hitler and his elite core. They were ideology driven and clearly the main body conducting war crimes.



Its simply because the Waffen SS was a separate organization from the main SS. The racial purity issue alone distinguished them. The real distinction , however, was that while Himmler had overall charge of the recruiting of the Waffen SS and that they were technically a military sub-component of the SS, once units were created, they were given under operational control to the Wehrmacht for use in combat operations rather than in racial/ethnic cleansing operations and internal security matters. It was a way of boosting the Wehrmacht's combat power using foreign nationals who were not otherwise eligible to serve in the Wehrmacht.



Note that most of the pieces that you cite talk primarily about the "Allgemeine SS" which is the core group - for lack of a better name, the "Blackshirts" - there is absolutely no question that this group and by far most of the people in it were involved in war crimes. There is no question that the Waffen-SS grew as a small entity out of the "Allgemeine SS" to take a role in combat operations. The point, however, is that there was a rapid expansion of the Waffen SS starting in 1941, which involved taking in people who in no way shape or form would have qualified for service in the "Allgemeine SS". They were recruited for and served primarily as combat troops - mostly on the Russian front.

Would there be times when certain members or units of the Waffen SS were pressed into service on SS cleansing operations. Of course they were, just as some Wehrmacht units were as well. The degree to which they could be considered liable as war criminals is, in Canada, determined in accordance with the case of R v Finta when the court addresses the issue of the defence of obedience to de facto law v superior orders.



In effect, in the circumstances of the times, many involved in what could constitute war crimes had no choice but to obey orders at the risk of their own lives. That is always a question of fact in each particular circumstance.

Let me be clear. I'm not excusing war crimes. All that I'm saying is that you have to judge individuals by what they did as individuals in the circumstances of the times. For many people during WW2, including Poles and Ukrainians, if you wanted to fight the communists to keep them from running amok in your country, then the Waffen SS was the only game in town. People should not be judged as war criminals simply through membership in a given organization; they need to be judged by their own actions. Some organizations make it more likely that their members were war criminals but on the scale of likelihood, the Waffen SS falls closer to the Wehrmacht than the Allgemeine SS.

Analoguous organizations to the Waffen SS?

Kondor Legion?
Mac-Paps?
French Foreign Legion?
Gurkhas?

The Gurkhas are foreigners that swear personal allegiance to the British Crown as Head of State.

International Legion of Territorial Defence of Ukraine?

 

[The Bread Guy]

I don't know ragazzo del pane. You know any expats?

In another life, when I dealt with a lot of Croats here, during the 1990's, I saw that, for sure.

 

[Kirkhill]

In another life, when I dealt with a lot of Croats here, during the 1990's, I saw that, for sure.

I've met them too. But I know a lot of other expats as well.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

This whole thread has fed my need to further my understanding of the other side in WWII and some of the lesser known history thar isn't taught in Canada.

I decided to educate myself on some of the skeletons from another Axis power who seemingly walked away scot-free.

I took a look ar the list of Italian War Crimes listed from the Italo-Turkish War til the founding of the Republic in 1946.

Lots of atrocities committed across Africa, the Balkans, Greece, and the Soviet Union. They had concentration camps. They murdered civilians. They were ruthless....

And there was a distinct desire by the Allies to avoid any trial against most of the perpetrators because they feared a Communist takeover in the vacuum after Mussolini was deposed and the Monarchy was abolished.

Many former Regio Esercito, Regia Marina, and Regia Aeronautica members were never tried, were demobilized, and a lot immigrated around the world including Canada. My grandfather (Regia Marina) and great uncle (Regio Esercito) being among them. As they were both conscripted 2 months before Op Husky, were part of the Coastal Defense Forces in Sicily, and deserted quickly after they were told "thats a nice family you got there... would be a shame if something happened to them if the Allies have a hard time when they land..." by the Cosa Nostra.... I am confident they had no possible link to those atrocities.

Many others, however, we may never know. The age of some of those who were in those ranks is taking its toll faster than any judge or jury ever could.

The Italian Government still refuses to acknowledge these things ever happening. As far as they're concerned, if it happened before 1946, it's not their fault or problem :" the Fascists did bad things, they were removed, Viva Italia."

But that is how fickle history is I guess. We know better, we do better, but there are others who can't be fucked to recognize the significance of it to others. I'm certain the Albanians would be murderous if a veteran of the Regio Esercito were recognized for fighting the Communist Partisans if the narrative fit...

 

[Eaglelord17]

This whole thread has fed my need to further my understanding of the other side in WWII and some of the lesser known history thar isn't taught in Canada.

I decided to educate myself on some of the skeletons from another Axis power who seemingly walked away scot-free.

I took a look ar the list of Italian War Crimes listed from the Italo-Turkish War til the founding of the Republic in 1946.

Lots of atrocities committed across Africa, the Balkans, Greece, and the Soviet Union. They had concentration camps. They murdered civilians. They were ruthless....

And there was a distinct desire by the Allies to avoid any trial against most of the perpetrators because they feared a Communist takeover in the vacuum after Mussolini was deposed and the Monarchy was abolished.

Many former Regio Esercito, Regia Marina, and Regia Aeronautica members were never tried, were demobilized, and a lot immigrated around the world including Canada. My grandfather (Regia Marina) and great uncle (Regio Esercito) being among them. As they were both conscripted 2 months before Op Husky, were part of the Coastal Defense Forces in Sicily, and deserted quickly after they were told "thats a nice family you got there... would be a shame if something happened to them if the Allies have a hard time when they land..." by the Cosa Nostra.... I am confident they had no possible link to those atrocities.

Many others, however, we may never know. The age of some of those who were in those ranks is taking its toll faster than any judge or jury ever could.

The Italian Government still refuses to acknowledge these things ever happening. As far as they're concerned, if it happened before 1946, it's not their fault or problem :" the Fascists did bad things, they were removed, Viva Italia."

But that is how fickle history is I guess. We know better, we do better, but there are others who can't be fucked to recognize the significance of it to others. I'm certain the Albanians would be murderous if a veteran of the Regio Esercito were recognized for fighting the Communist Partisans if the narrative fit...

You can take things a step farther and question our side of WWII as well.

We consider ourselves the good guys but at the end of the day were we really or were we just better than the Axis?

Britain? Colony owning oppressor, acts of ‘valour’ in its history which would be the exact type of events condemned in WWII. Simple example being the Boer War which many of our regiments proudly display honours for. Basically we went and tried to bully and kill some farmers for the gold discovered on their land. Britain basically set the starting grounds for the concentration camps in the Boer War. They only stopped colonizing in the 60s when the Soviets armed the Africans which allowed them to fight back for once.

US? Forceful and violent colonizations for the decades leading up to WWII, Philippines (also had concentration camps), Annexation of Hawaii, not to mention all the horrors they inflicted on the natives during the 1800s. They also committed tons of war crimes during WWII which were never prosecuted or investigated. Basically killing every Japanese soldier (including the surrendering soldiers) they could up until their command literally had to make deals with their troops not to kill them because it was hampering intelligence gathering. Still to this day invading countries. Still killing lots of people and not holding anyone accountable.

Canada? War crime central for WWI. Committing genocide on our indigenous population until 1994. 60s scoop was a major acceleration done until 1983, which we have never bothered to look back and try and prosecute anyone involved in it. We like to push others on how horribly they have acted yet refuse to take a mirror and look inward.

USSR? Basically just as bad as the Nazis, only seen in a better light by most today due to the refusal to condemn their actions.

I would still say the Axis power which got away with the most was Japan though. Makes a lot of what the Nazis were doing look like childs play. They didn’t even hide it either.

Overall history isn't some black and white thing most try and make it seem like. Its easy to sit and go 'these people were evil' when the vast majority of people were simply surviving in their time. Our crimes were never scrutinized to anywhere near the same degree as some of the Axis because no one wanted to deal with it. History is written by the victors.