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Senior Officer numbers - FB post by Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau

SupersonicMax

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His numbers add up to about 66K, the last open source RegF number I can find is 68K (Canadian Armed Forces 101 - Canada.ca). I'd be curious to see his dataset, including its date. At the very least, it appears that he may be counting OCdt/NCdts in the total, who are officers, but not commissioned.
And many Air Force officer trades (specialist trades such as ACSOs, Pilots, ATC and AWC) don’t actually start leading people until they reach the rank of Major. I wonder how many of Captains and below in those trades we have.
 

MilEME09

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We've had some pretty bad recruiting/retention numbers since COVID, I've heard in the realm of -10,000 people in Reg Force. I wouldn't be surprised if we're below 60k at this point.
given what I've heard, not to mention more signing bonuses being offered I'd guess you are right
 

SeaKingTacco

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And many Air Force officer trades (specialist trades such as ACSOs, Pilots, ATC and AWC) don’t actually start leading people until they reach the rank of Major. I wonder how many of Captains and below in those trades we have.
You really, really don’t know much about what happens in the Air Force outside of a fighter wing, do you?

Supersonic Max is entirely incorrect.

ACSOs and pilots in MH Sqns are leading crews (as a minimum) within 18 months of OTU graduation. Not to mention all of the other day to day, basic officership (including PER writing) and secondary duty stuff that, by any definition is leadership and starts even before they become either Aircraft Captains or Crew Commanders.

I cannot speak for AECs, but suspect many would also take issue with the canard that RCAF officers “don’t lead”.
 

SupersonicMax

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You really, really don’t know much about what happens in the Air Force outside of a fighter wing, do you?

Supersonic Max is entirely incorrect.

ACSOs and pilots in MH Sqns are leading crews (as a minimum) within 18 months of OTU graduation. Not to mention all of the other day to day, basic officership (including PER writing) and secondary duty stuff that, by any definition is leadership and starts even before they become either Aircraft Captains or Crew Commanders.

I cannot speak for AECs, but suspect many would also take issue with the canard that RCAF officers “don’t lead”.
I have no doubt they lead other operators tactically. Fighter pilots do as well. If they lead administratively - being Flight Commanders/Commanding Officers (which seems to be the crux of the argument of the article), I stand corrected. But even in non-fighter units (perhaps other than units where Majors are Commanding Officers and Senior Captains are flight commanders, which not as common), the vast majority of Captains do not lead people outside a cockpit/aircraft.
 

Infanteer

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Isn't the cockpit/aircraft where they are supposed to lead?
 

SupersonicMax

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Isn't the cockpit/aircraft where they are supposed to lead?
Sure but when we compare NCMs vs Officer numbers the way Drapeau does, it doesn’t work. What Drapeau is arguing is related to an administrative chain of command.
 

kev994

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I have no doubt they lead other operators tactically. Fighter pilots do as well. If they lead administratively - being Flight Commanders/Commanding Officers (which seems to be the crux of the argument of the article), I stand corrected. But even in non-fighter units (perhaps other than units where Majors are Commanding Officers and Senior Captains are flight commanders, which not as common), the vast majority of Captains do not lead people outside a cockpit/aircraft.
Agree. FWSAR is very much like this. A senior Capt is usually the pilot leader in charge of maybe 6 or so other Captains. Of those Captains a few are ACs, but they would have a different crew every flight and administratively outside the plane aren’t really in charge of any people. The flight commander is usually a Maj.
 

ModlrMike

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Add to the discussion the Medical Branch. MO, NO, Physio, SocW, etc... most Med Branch officers don't actually lead troops.
 

FJAG

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Going back to 2017 numbers, the ratio of authorized Reg F officers to NCMs in the Air Force (i.e. the Air Force rather than RCAF folks employed outside the Air Force) was 2,913/9,810 or 1:3.37 which is only slightly higher than the CAF as a whole. The Army's ratio was 2,804/18,902 or 1:6.74. The RCN 1,231/6,894 or 1:5.60. VCDS was 998/1759 or 1:1.76 and CJOC was 775/1286 or 1:1.66. Of course one would expect higher ratios for headquarters organizations vs field units.

I don't want to restart the rather lengthy thread about NCM pilots but ... 😉

🍻
 

SupersonicMax

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When looking at it from a pragmatic point of view, and some of of arguments that were made (such as saving salary money), having NCM pilots wouldn’t change anything. NCM pilots, if we ever have any, better be paid as much as Officer pilots.

If all we’re trying to do is hit some magic Officer/NCM ratio, then sure, replacing some Officer pilots with NCM pilots would solve that…
I don't want to restart the rather lengthy thread about NCM pilots but ... 😉
 

Harris

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As of 19 Aug and according to Guardian, the CAF Reg Force is made up of (Read Rank, Filled, Unfilled):

Pte(B), 0, 1857
Pte, 1296, 278
Pte/Cpl, 10378, 3325
Cpl, 6657, 1908
MCpl, 7903, 2166
Sgt, 5905, 1211
WO, 3491, 672
MWO, 1808, 322
CWO, 425, 14
OCdt, 0, 3126
2Lt, 0, 615
Lt/Capt, 1650, 990
Lt, 172, 121
Capt, 4173, 1364
Maj, 3424, 763
LCol, 1231, 154
Col, 331, 24
BGen, 61, 4
MGen, 31, 1
LGen, 9, 0
Gen, 1, 0
Totals, 48946, 18915 or if all positions were filled 67861

Reserve
Pte(R), 538, 246
Pte(B), 1, 1
Pte, 292, 184
Pte/Cpl, 10282, 6721
Cpl, 1497, 2067
MCpl, 2910, 4087
Sgt, 2265, 2823
WO, 958, 1464
MWO, 457, 536
CWO, 163, 53
OCdt, 244, 114
2Lt, 68, 38
Lt/Capt, 1077, 925
Lt, 218, 151
Capt, 1147, 1425
Maj, 840, 835
LCol, 281, 255
Col, 42, 53
BGen, 6, 7
MGen, 0, 4
Totals, 23286, 21989, or if all posns were filled 45275


So the ratio of all Reg Force filled officers vs all NCO posns is 3.41. If all positions were filled that ratio changes to 2.71.
The Reserve numbers for filled posns is 4.93. If all posns were filled it changes to 4.85.

Combining the numbers of filled posns Reg and Reserve would give 3.81 and 3.35 if we were full up posn wise.

Note these numbers do not contain Rangers or COATS posns.
 

dimsum

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I don't want to restart the rather lengthy thread about NCM pilots but ... 😉
F no. We've beaten that dead horse. And NCM ACSOs and NCM AECs, and NCM AEREs, and so on.

I wonder if he suggests the 1:5 or 1:6 because that's how the Army organization works, without looking at the differences in working requirements, etc between the services. I also wonder if, as someone stated in this thread, he counted COATS officers as well.
 

SupersonicMax

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F no. We've beaten that dead horse. And NCM ACSOs and NCM AECs, and NCM AEREs, and so on.

I wonder if he suggests the 1:5 or 1:6 because that's how the Army organization works, without looking at the differences in working requirements, etc between the services. I also wonder if, as someone stated in this thread, he counted COATS officers as well.
1:5 to 1:6 but no more than 1:7, in management theory, is generally regarded as the optimal supervisor:subordinate ratio…. Maybe it comes from there, using this number without context?
 
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