Second Language Training ( SLT )

[pbi]

realize Canada is a bilingual country but IMHO the need for all the CF to conform to the french language is unnecessary.All of the provinces are trying to ensure everything is in both official languages except Quebec.How is this fair?[

That isn't really what it says. Go back and read it more closely, especially the part about weighting for junior ranks. The emphasis of the message is on senior ranks, especially more senior officers. And, anyway, there is nothing all that new about this: the officer corps has been officially working towards functional bilingualism for quite a while now: any officer who is surprised by this hasn't been paying attention. In the NCM ranks, I very much doubt we will see any real impact below CWO or maybe MWO, especially not in the Cbt A.

Cheers.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

Point taken however I dont understand why the language profile in the CF is only applicable to the french language.Are we not a diverse culture that goes to countries where say a member who speaks farsi would be an asset?There are those in the CF whos first language is neither english nor french but they arn't eligible for the extra points on the PER.Why not encourage CF members to add some diversity to the "accepted languages"?Just an idea.

 

[Infanteer]

I was under the impression that extra language abilities did count for something.  I guess I assumed wrong.

 

[Pencil Tech]

The reason is, while it would be nice if you spoke Farsi in some situations, at the senior level in the Canadian Forces you are expected to command in both official languages. I don't see why that should be a big surprise.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

And what about the junior levels?Should only those who speak french/english be rewarded with a higher PER score? I agree its important for senior officers to have the french language but there is no encouragement for CF members to learn or advance with any other language.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

The French fellows also have to take English training as well.  As I side note I know a few French CF members who passed SAR Tech selection but couldn't speak english good enough by the time final selection was made so they were cut.

 

[George Wallace]

And what about the junior levels?Should only those who speak french/english be rewarded with a higher PER score? I agree its important for senior officers to have the french language but there is no encouragement for CF members to learn or advance with any other language.

This is already in effect.   There are scores for compentency in the 'Official' Second Language abilities of those being merit listed.   The scores are not that much, but may be the tie breaker in deciding promotions and course loading at the Merit Boards in Ottawa.

Is it really fair?   Good question.   English and French are Canada's 'Official' Languages.   French is no longer the Second Language of the country, as Chinese has replaced it.   If we continue on that track, will French become a 'Dead' Language in Canada?   That is the fear of the Bloc and Separatists in Quebec.  They fear French becoming a 'Lost Language' like Latin, no longer a relevant 'Romantic Language'.

On another point; Bilingual means you speak two languages.   Only in Canada, is that 'not True'.   My wife is German, and English is her second language.   Only in Canada is she not considered Bilingual.   As was mentioned, there are many in Canada who speak other languages, some speaking several, but unless they speak both English and French, they are not considered Bilingual in Canada.  

Those who do enjoy learning French, also run into the problem that it is Parisiene French not Quebecois.   It too is a cause of consternation.   The 'Military' terms used for many things in French are not accurately translated by Civilian Translators in Ottawa.   People going on French Training and posting to units in Quebec also run into the 'Angloization' of many military terms...."Changais la Trac".

I think it is a benefit that many members of the Forces be able to speak a Second Language and it will be a benefit on Tour, but I disagree with Forced Bilingualism.   I think learning should be a volunteer and enjoyable task, not force fed.   Credit should also be given to 'Bilingualism' in languages other than English and French.   We most often require linguists and translators in languagers other than English and French while on Tour, although it is amazing to find so many people in foreign lands who speak English.

Most NATO, SEATO, NORAD, and many other Alliance Organizations use English as their "Operating Language".   The language of all Air Traffic Controllers is English.   The same can be said about many of the operations at Sea.   Most 'Computer Languages' are in English, although the French are fighting hard to have French Programming done.   English is the modern language of business these days.  It has even replaced French as the language of Diplomacy.

I do find it disconcerting that our bureaucracy figures that we MUST be Bilingual.  Being able to speak a second language has no affect on my abilities to shoot straighter.  Merit should be the only criteria for promotion.  Language abilities should remain a low priority, well below job knowledge, job performance and competency in the promotion process.  I do not like the aspect of people who are incompetent being promoted because of their Language abilities.

In the end, however, the ability to speak a second or third language is always a good goal for most these days, especially if you like to travel to distant lands for work or pleasure.  8)

 

[GINge!]

The real concern ought to be that mediocre performers (be they Anglo or Franco) who are bilingual, are being promoted ahead of outstanding performers who are unilingual.

I'm not saying bilingual leaders are not required - I am questioning the weighting of this skill in terms of potential. We spend a lot of money, time, and effort teaching soldiers a second language, and my gut check tells me that many of them never/rarely use it. There's something fundamentally wrong with an appraisal system that awards twice as many points for being able to function in a second language than it does for holding Bachelors and Masters Degrees. Most unilingual officers would be farther ahead in their military careers if they passed on a 4-year degree in favour of learning French or English. I'm sure there are other example of skills that are more relevant than bilingualism, I just picked education as its one I am familiar with. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
I do find it disconcerting that our bureaucracy figures that we MUST be Bilingual.

MUST?....when did you learn, George?

Quote,
Only in Canada is she not considered Bilingual.

...she is, just not in the two offical languages.

Quotes,
Credit should also be given to 'Bilingualism' in languages other than English and French.
Merit should be the only criteria for promotion.

...pardon? ...which one is correct?

Quote,
Those who do enjoy learning French, also run into the problem that it is Parisiene French not Quebecois.  It too is a cause of consternation.

...this is basicly a red herring, I challenge most people to take three people fresh off the "rock" and try to follow the conversation, what do we call that, St. Johnsainne English?   Heck, I can hardly understand two Brits talking.

Quotes,
[1]There are scores for compentency in the 'Official' Second Language abilities of those being merit listed.  The scores are not that much, but may be the tie breaker in deciding promotions and course loading at the Merit Boards in Ottawa.
[2]Language abilities should remain a low priority, well below job knowledge, job performance and competency in the promotion process.  I do not like the aspect of people who are incompetent being promoted because of their Language abilities.

So what you are saying is both are incompetent but the one who is incompetent in two languages will get promoted?

.....its a qualification just like a degree, a course, etc.   If this grade 10 dropout can learn it at 25 years old, so can anybody.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
There's something fundamentally wrong with an appraisal system that awards twice as many points for being able to function in a second language than it does for holding Bachelors and Masters Degrees. Most unilingual officers would be farther ahead in their military careers if they passed on a 4-year degree in favour of learning French or English.

...maybe because it's a useful skill and a degree, .......well it looks good on the wall!

 

[George Wallace]

Gee!  Bruce!

You're no fun this early Sunday Morning.  Cross cut saw, La?  ;D

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Early Sunday ??....oh yea, it is Sunday, well to a shift worker its actually Wednesday.....Tuesday will be Friday and Friday will actually be Monday, got that?

 

[Garry]

Yo George,

..."The language of all Air Traffic Controllers is English."... Essentially correct. Go to a German Fighter Base deep inside Germany, no Civilian traffic, and all the pilots and ATC speak ONLY English. Same (as you noted) everywhere else in the world, military and civilian airports, except for one place: Quebec. All ATC services are offered in both english and french, and both languages are spoken concurrently.

This is extremely dangerous (hence the reason no one else does it).

I have found reason to speak french in the field (Germany, actually, and iirc you were there)....pretty basic stuff-"right up the middle, ready?- follow me"...and even MY rudimentary french was enough.

That wiggling feeling is the tail wagging all of you pointy end types.

Cheers-Garry

 

[George Wallace]

;D

Ah, Yes!  Eine Schizzer Biere Bitter.......You know better to get lessons on the flight over now don't you.....What are friends for; if not to be abused.... ;D

 

[Jungle]

There's something fundamentally wrong with an appraisal system that awards twice as many points for being able to function in a second language than it does for holding Bachelors and Masters Degrees. Most unilingual officers would be farther ahead in their military careers if they passed on a 4-year degree in favour of learning French or English.

Uhh... WHAT ?? What good is a degree in an operational situation ? Is it more useful than being able to communicate with everybody on your team ?? Senior Leaders find themselves working more and more in "mixed and matched" outfits during ops, and you can't see the benefits of bilingualism ??
Maybe you should look for a degree in Common Sense !!   :

Edited to fix a typo  8)

 

[aesop081]

I have posted this a while ago in another thread but when i was a section commander in edmonton, speaking both french and english came in extreamely handy when someone decided to post unilingual french QL3s to the regiment.  None of the troop's senior leadership spoke french and it made O group time very difficult. They were glad i was there i can tell you that much.  There are many languages spoken in this country but all recruits speak either french or english at the very least. it may be anoying to some but the way i see it, it was crucial for me , even at the section level, to be able to communicate with ALL my subordinates.  My first order of buisness was to get both soldiers to an english course in a timely manner, which was done. being able to speak to all the troops under your command is not only good for your PER...i consider it a command resposability.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

How about a system that ensures at a certain rank level(ie: 6B course),senior levels must attain a language profile in french/or english in the french speakers case.But at lower rank levels, other language courses ie:german,russian should count towards PER points since those taking them are doing so to improve themselves.I have nothing against french, I took 12 years of french immersion and speak it fluently but wouldn't it be better if say the CF agreed to pay for second language training in any language and credit their PER's accordingly?The system recognizes furthering your education in other aspects.

 

[George Wallace]

SHELLDRAKE!!

Interesting thought.  It would further our linguistic skills on deployments and make learning a Second Language a 'pleasure' and less 'intimidating' as what is mandated now.  If young soldiers found it interesting to learn another language like German, Serbo-Croate, Russian or Chinese, they may find it easier to learn French or English later.  The Challenge they can set for themselves.

 

[Infanteer]

I like that as well.  There should be some way of the system recognizing soldiers who gain/possess extra abilities on their own.  If someone goes out a learns Arabic (or perhaps already knows it) they are bringing something extra to the Forces.

 

[aesop081]

I like that as well.   There should be some way of the system recognizing soldiers who gain/possess extra abilities on their own.   If someone goes out a learns Arabic (or perhaps already knows it) they are bringing something extra to the Forces.

Agreed. It should be like any other academic upgrading or other courses for which the military gives you "brownie" points at PER time.