Search for New Canadian Ranger Rifle (merged)

[MedCorps]

Agreed... you think it would be easy to pick off the procurement list.

Many of the other parts of this project are also COTS I suspect and should be easy to pick off the list also.  Last time I talked to the guys at DLR they said:

C6 - new SF kit, night vision attachment system, rail system of some sorts.

C7 / C8 - rail system, new cocking handle, back up sight, cam system, new rear sling attachment, maybe a power rail / battery system.

C9 - they are unsure -- needs a full user survey.

Accessories:  New slings, magazines, soft belt carriers for the C6 / C9, flashlights, cleaning kits, lasers, collimators, suppressors.  All COTS.

The weapons sight may or may not be COTS: Combined close quarter and magnified sight, maybe with a new reticle pattern. Sounds a bit like the ACOG-ECOS, but I am sure there are other COTS options available.

The procurements will be long - pistol (which as already had problems in the procurement system), M203, HMG, reduced weight ammunition (although this could be COTS, I am not sure what is on the steal case market).

Sharp shooter capacity will be long I suspect unless someone has good vision.  It is not meant to complete with Sniper Systems Project, so we will see what comes out of it as the SSP is a pretty comprehensive vision.  Anyone care to comment?

MC

 

[midget-boyd91]

lol

I have to wonder...I've never really heard any of the Rangers I've worked with (which are admittedly very few) complain about the old bang stick. Pretty easy to maintain, doesn't break in the cold, etc.

Is this the bright idea fairy coming to roost or is there an actual requirement for this?

Wook

The Enfield is built to last. There is an old I believe it was made between 1939-41 in the closet here at home that ended up being used for hunting etc for decades after the war. Still in perfect firing condition today (except lack of ammo). 
The Lee Enfield is like the original Nintendo of firearms: It ain't gonna die unless you try to kill it yourself... And then it'll probably still keep working.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The Enfield is built to last. There is an old I believe it was made between 1939-41 in the closet here at home that ended up being used for hunting etc for decades after the war. Still in perfect firing condition today (except lack of ammo). 
The Lee Enfield is like the original Nintendo of firearms: It ain't gonna die unless you try to kill it yourself... And then it'll probably still keep working.

The ammo is readily available, even at stores like Canadian Tire.

You just need an invasive government issued license (PAL) to purchase it.

 

[Tank Troll]

I have a Lee Enfield #5 Mk 1 great hunting rifle, just bought a couple hundred rounds for it 3 weeks ago no shortage of hunting ammo. How ever the military hard point might be in short supply, but that could be rectified by getting some one to make it. The Rangers I worked with and talked to wouldn't trade there Lee Enfields for any thing. That being said a lot of us felt the same about the FN.

 

[Rheostatic]

The Lee Enfield is like the original Nintendo of firearms: It ain't gonna die unless you try to kill it yourself... And then it'll probably still keep working.

Except that you don't have to blow on the cartridges to make them work.

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

This is pulled right out of the Statement of Operational Requirement:
"Canada can no longer sustain the current Canadian Ranger Rifle (CRR) – the .303 Lee Enfield Mk 4 No1 Star in service. The Lee Enfield ceased production after the end of WW II in 1950 and replacement stocks are no longer available on the international used arms market. The Director Land Procurement (DLP) has confirmed that the world-wide source of used Lee Enfield is now exhausted and certain replacement parts such as rear sights and magazines are virtually impossible to obtain in the quantities needed.  The CF Lee Enfield fleet is being maintained by using parts stripped from other disabled small arms.  The age of Lee Enfield rifle, its general condition, the lack of spare parts and the ad hoc method of support combine to convey a very negative message to the members of the Canada Ranger community."

A lot of our Rangers do like their Lee Enfield, but it is also an aging weapon that needs to be replaced.  We have a hard time keeping up with the abuse they take and keeping them going.

 

[Stoker]

This is pulled right out of the Statement of Operational Requirement:
"Canada can no longer sustain the current Canadian Ranger Rifle (CRR) – the .303 Lee Enfield Mk 4 No1 Star in service. The Lee Enfield ceased production after the end of WW II in 1950 and replacement stocks are no longer available on the international used arms market. The Director Land Procurement (DLP) has confirmed that the world-wide source of used Lee Enfield is now exhausted and certain replacement parts such as rear sights and magazines are virtually impossible to obtain in the quantities needed.  The CF Lee Enfield fleet is being maintained by using parts stripped from other disabled small arms.  The age of Lee Enfield rifle, its general condition, the lack of spare parts and the ad hoc method of support combine to convey a very negative message to the members of the Canada Ranger community."

A lot of our Rangers do like their Lee Enfield, but it is also an aging weapon that needs to be replaced.  We have a hard time keeping up with the abuse they take and keeping them going.

So why has MARSTAR a canadian company just imported containers of unissued stocks and parts, there are parts out there if they're willing to look for them.

 

[dapaterson]

So why has MARSTAR a canadian company just imported containers of unissued stocks and parts, there are parts out there if they're willing to look for them.

How long will they be available?  How reliable are the suppliers?

Better to start a replacement project while there are still options for sustainment than to wait until it's a crisis.

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

Better to start a replacement project while there are still options for sustainment than to wait until it's a crisis.

Well, now....that's just sillly!
You're a silly-talker.

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

So why has MARSTAR a canadian company just imported containers of unissued stocks and parts, there are parts out there if they're willing to look for them.

Because the NCRR is still at least 4+ years away from being delivered, we need to keep the current Enfields going.  This however is just a short term solution.

 

[Tank Troll]

How long will they be available?  How reliable are the suppliers?

Better to start a replacement project while there are still options for sustainment than to wait until it's a crisis.

STOP STOP RIGHT THERE ! We in the Canadian Forces are reactive not proacvtive

 

[PMedMoe]

STOP STOP RIGHT THERE ! We in the Canadian Forces are reactive not proacvtive

:goodpost:

Too true.  :nod:

 

[OldSolduer]

:goodpost:

Too true.  :nod:

Agreed 100%

 

[chrisf]

So why has MARSTAR a canadian company just imported containers of unissued stocks and parts, there are parts out there if they're willing to look for them.

For the same reason we (the Canadian Forces) have had to buy artillery sights from museums, and we had to source batteries for a communications system via e-bay from a surplus dealer in the states... among other things...

Those parts are antiques now, and priced as such...

Buying old parts for old weapons just leaves you with even older weapons to buy even older parts for....

 

[camouflauge]

What do Canadian Rangers Need in a New Rifle?
Ammo.

MM

:nod: LOL

 

[daftandbarmy]

The equivalent unit to our Rangers, in Denmark, is the Sirius Patrol; the Navy dog sled teams that patrol northern Greenland for months on end in the winter time.

Guess what they use as their issued weapon?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1917_Enfield

Yup, that's right, an ancestor of the Mk4 Lee-Enfield. With 10mm Glocks as a backup.

"Recently I hunted seals here in North East Greenland with 2 members of the military Siriuspatrol. One of the most strange military units in NATO. At least the only one that is transported by dog sledge, since it is still the best way of transport up here!

Well, the two soldiers carried Glock pistols to be used against polarbears. A common threat here! But for rifles they have for many years used the old american P17 30-06 from WW I since it can take the cold, that no modern rifle seem to be able to!"

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?2718-List-of-famous-users-of-swedish-guns.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Ammo is easy, hell even making new parts would be easy if the will is there.

The problem I have heard is that even rifles like the Ruger Scout  may have issues with the extreme cold thanks to the type of stainless they use. Even a "off the shelf rifle" may require modifications to make it work in the varied climates the Rangers work in. I suspect they are going to find it much harder to replace then they think. The Lee Enfield is the results of 40-60 years of evolutionary firearm design based on a significant amount of users experience throughtout the globe.

Frankly I think having a company here buys the rights to the AIA rifle, change a few things that were claimed to be wrong with it and the process will be a lot faster and more successful than what they are planning. Allow the rifle to be made commercially and exportable as well.

 

[Stoker]

Ammo is easy, hell even making new parts would be easy if the will is there.

The problem I have heard is that even rifles like the Ruger Scout  may have issues with the extreme cold thanks to the type of stainless they use. Even a "off the shelf rifle" may require modifications to make it work in the varied climates the Rangers work in. I suspect they are going to find it much harder to replace then they think. The Lee Enfield is the results of 40-60 years of evolutionary firearm design based on a significant amount of users experience throughtout the globe.

Frankly I think having a company here buys the rights to the AIA rifle, change a few things that were claimed to be wrong with it and the process will be a lot faster and more successful than what they are planning. Allow the rifle to be made commercially and exportable as well.

I guess they were already looked at

Excerpt from a Canadian government document concerning the military's Small Arms Replacement Project II (SARP 2):

13. A company based in Australia, Australian International Arms (AIA), markets a M10 No.4 Mk IV Modern Short Magazine Lee Enfield (SMLE) Rifle in 7.62mm NATO calibre. This rifle is a replica of the Lee Enfield but in appearance only. The cost of this rifle, less ancillaries is approximately $800.00 (Cdn). The CF technical authority for small arms, DSSPM 5, on 24 Jul 08 conducted an initial examination of the AIA rifle because in appearance it closely resembles the current Lee Enfield. The technical authority concluded that the rifle would not meet the Canadian Ranger’s requirement without significant modification and re-engineering because it is cheaply made.

14. The Australian International Arms M10 No 4 Mk IV SMLE Rifle fires a 7.62 x 51mm NATO cartridge and at first glance appears to meet the CF requirement as a replacement for the Canadian Ranger Rifle. The rifle is assembled from parts manufactured from throughout South-East Asia in locations such as as Viet Nam, Thailand (teak stocks) and Indonesia.    The barrel is hammer-forged in Australia. The general assessment is that the rifle is accurate and attractively priced, but it was clearly designed for the civilian recreational shooting market and it is not a military product. Many parts of the rifle are cheaply made and would likely fail under testing.

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

The NCRR is not strictly an off the shelf purchase.  There are very specific criteria that it must meet and will go through rigorous testing in order to see how it will stand up.  The Rangers in our patrol group do not baby their rifles, so they'll be tested well and thoroughly.

 

[Tank Troll]

The NCRR is not strictly an off the shelf purchase.  There are very specific criteria that it must meet and will go through rigorous testing in order to see how it will stand up.  The Rangers in our patrol group do not baby their rifles, so they'll be tested well and thoroughly.

I really hope that "rigorous testing"will be the case. I don't want to sound skeptical...............but that song has been sung before. Just about everyone here can think of a least a couple of pieces of equipment in our current inventory that is less than what was needed. For our Rangers safety and well being the testing needs to be "well and thorough" any thing less would be a great disservice to them.