Sailor Derek de Jong and Other Ship Misconducts?

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Eye in the Sky: PM inbound.

 

[OldSolduer]

Whoa- Whoa- Whoa

Canadian drinking practices are fine, It isnt an issue.
Have none of you seen  Campus PD and americans with their 21 year Age Limit.

Canadian drinking practices are an issue. That's pretty obvious.

And we are talking about Canadian sailors, not American university students. Apples meet oranges.

I tell my WOs and Sgts - I don't care what other units do.....it's what we do that concerns me.

 

[Crispy Bacon]

Drinking culture has long haunted navy, expert says

Andrew Nguyen, Ottawa Citizen

At least three incidents involving the crew of HMCS Whitehorse raise troubling questions about the broader issue of bad behaviour by navy personnel, which includes allegations of sailors passing out in bars, drunk driving and sexual misconduct.

Ken Hansen, an adjunct professor of political science at Dalhousie University who also served in the navy for more than 30 years, says there are reasons such behaviour has been allowed to escalate.

Navy Commander Vice-Admiral Mark Norman abruptly called the Whitehorse back to its port in Esquimalt, B.C. three weeks early from an international naval exercise. It’s not the first prominent case of apparent misconduct by navy personnel, but Hansen says it’s “one of the most egregious incidents involving a ship” that he’s seen.

Hansen, who specializes in maritime security and naval operational doctrine and who retired from the navy in 2009 with the rank of commander, said the pressure of navy work can be overwhelming at times, and the “combination of stress and boredom” can lead to potential alcohol abuse.

Hansen said the life of a sailor used to be fairly simple: those with little education could serve aboard a vessel. There was a stereotype of the “jolly drunken sailor” because sailors once received daily rations of about a pint of rum. “They basically spent their lives in a drunken haze,” he said.

The tradition of daily rum rations slowly disappeared from the navy and was later replaced by a bar service.

Hansen said changing the culture aboard a ship is challenging because naval history has been entwined with alcohol since the 1500s.

Indeed, alcohol abuse ran through “all the ages and all the ranks” even when he served, Hansen said. Sometimes people would get reprimanded, their bar privileges revoked.

It was understood that the combination of stress and exhaustion eventually led them to drink too much. “All of us were getting away with it at one point and we got one get-out-of-jail-free card,” he said.

“It doesn’t happen every day, sometimes it doesn’t happen every week, but every once in a while something happens and it’s booze related,” Hansen said.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Me think they got their measures wrong: Sailors were issued a "Tot" of rum - which amounted las time I checked to three ounces, not a whole pint. The drunken haze he refers to sailors living in dates back to sailing ship and it was because as you ran out of water, you had to turn to beer for onboard drinking. This disappeared with the era of the Battleships in the early 1900. Already by that time, your seaman could not be people with "little education" anymore.

In fact, this difference in education requirement between the days of sail and the days of steam are the reason why, in seagoing people in the late 19th and early 20th century the term "sailor" (for those still in sailing ships) was considered an insult when applied to those operating steamships, who preferred to be called "seaman".

 

[Mike5]

I'll second Jim Seggie's comment because it is worth repeating: Canadian drinking practices are an issue.  Canadian drinking practices at large are unhealthy and probably worthy of a seperate thread.  This is not a comment on the current story -- I am not in the RCN, was not on Whitehorse and was not in the Admiral's office so I am not going to comment on something I don't know anything about.

On a side note, it seems from the newspaper article quoted in this discussion that the press will take any benign comment and frame it as a condemnation or accusation in order to make the story sensational.  This is unfortunate as it limits constructive discussion.

 

[JesseWZ]

My responses to your points in yellow.

Whoa- Whoa- Whoa

Canadian drinking practices are fine, It isnt an issue. No, they aren't fine, and yes they are an issue. The vast majority of criminal files we deal with are alcohol related in one way or another.

We drink, We drink hard. As Canadians many of us love our beer, our hockey our Camping parties and Backyard Bonfires. 

Navy drinks very hard, a few bad apples does not spoil the whole seasons crop. Yes we are always in the media eyes, most Canadians dont care that a few boys were liquored up in San Diego.

Only reason why this spread so fast and the ship sent home- Media overplayed it, politically charged, looking for a scapegoat.  They made it worse then it is.

You're calling this one pretty early without a lot of knowledge of the details aren't you? Are you aware of all the allegations? If not, you're speaking out of your arse.

3 people of 35, of how many Canadians are down there on Exercise right now?

Three incidents involving a crew of 35. Not 3 people. Even if it was just 3 people, that is 10 % of the ships company. If you're ok with serving in a unit where 10% of the personnel can't control themselves when having some drinks, all the power to you. I'm not.

yep.

How many times in the 80s/90s did you hear about a good ole drinking time by the navy in port? Rarely if ever, my dad has told me tonnes of stories that were way worse than this from his Navy days. The internet is an amazing tool, and weapon, depending on who is using it.

You're missing the point, we serve the Canadian Public. The public, and their elected officials, have decided this is not ok. Maybe it's time we re-think our values respecting alcohol to be more in line with the Country we serve.

 

[MARS]

Only reason why this spread so fast and the ship sent home- Media overplayed it, politically charged, looking for a scapegoat.  They made it worse then it is.

Incorrect.  The ship was recalled well before the media got a hold off this.  I knew about this last Friday morning - ADT.  When did you see/read the first report in the media? The ship was recalled by the Commander of the RCN.  The media received their initial info from the NAVGEN and the associated press releases.  This was a Navy-driven reaction and a Navy decision, not a media/politically driven one.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I do not hear anyone talking about this, in fact it only made the news due to the ship being ordered back. Hell most young adults nowadays have a drinking issue, along with a recreational drug issue. Compared to the Brits and Finns we are mere amateurs in drinking. Also the westcoast generally drinks less than Prairies and East Coast. 

 

[Stoker]

First of all, Mike5, MCDV's carry both beer and hard liquor, and in the case at hand probably that alchoolized BC Cider since operating on the West Coast.

There is no storage problem. MCDV's have tons of storage room for everything, especially since there is whole compartment in each one dedicated to housing sonars which have yet to be installed on any of them. Instant huge beer store. But even without that its all factored in for storage.

We use to carry all that same stuff (beer, hard liquor, BC cider) for same size crew onboard the gate vessels with about 10% of the storage room available on a MCDV.

What compartment are you talking about that was supposed to house sonars?  Are you talking about Degaussing, can't store extra beer and pop there. The beer and pop stores on a MCDV actually is pretty small, with canteen supplies, beer and pop, booze there's not much space especially during a long deployment. The ships do not have the option to resupply during a trip either.

 

[Shamrock]

Never in the 90's did I hear anyone saying how it was done in the 60's.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Never in the 90's did I hear anyone saying how it was done in the 60's.

Was that Sarcasm? 'Cause there were still quite a few Chiefs and PO's in 93/94 that served on the Bonnie, and they never shut up about the good old days in the 60's, especially when they were drinking. 

 

[OldSolduer]

Was that Sarcasm? 'Cause there were still quite a few Chiefs and PO's in 93/94 that served on the Bonnie, and they never shut up about the good old days in the 60's, especially when they were drinking. 

It's true, I served with an old PO1 that sailed on the Bonnie. He was quoted miffed at having to don Air Force DEU because he wasn't Air Force.....he joined the Royal Canadian Navy in June 1957.

 

[Journeyman]

Media overplayed it, politically charged, looking for a scapegoat.  They made it worse then it is.

And now you're the Admiral's spokesman?  :not-again:

 

[The Bread Guy]

From the Globe and Mail:  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/navy-to-investigate-allegations-against-hmcs-whitehorse-sailors/article19649341/

It is reported that the investigation ordered into the policies governing the conduct of RCN personnel ashore was triggered by more than just the recent WHITEHORSE incidents ...

Bumped with the latest from an Access to Information Act disclosure, via the Toronto Star, with more details of the e-mail traffic ...

“I don’t know what the heck is going on with my sailors.”

That sentiment — aired by the chief petty officer on HMCS Whitehorse — best sums up a port visit in 2014 that turned into a publicity nightmare for the Royal Canadian Navy.

And the alcohol-fuelled troubles of three sailors sparked some deep reflections within navy ranks, prompting one commander to write that a “hard reset” of attitudes was needed.

The incidents involving the crew of HMCS Whitehorse in 2014 were well-publicized at the time. But documents released to Torstar News Service under Access to Information after more than a year shed some new light on the discipline woes that left navy officials shaking their heads.

The coastal defence vessel, based in Esquimalt B.C., was slated to take part in RIMPAC, billed as the world’s largest maritime exercise. But the ship’s mission was cut short by three weeks because of the onshore exploits of its sailors during a port visit in San Diego.

One sailor was held overnight in a police drunk tank; another was arrested for shoplifting and held for several days in a local jail; and a third was left facing allegations of serious misconduct though the details have remained under wraps.

In the wake of the incidents, Vice-Admiral Mark Norman, the navy commander, quickly ordered the ship home.

Documents obtained by Torstar, including email exchanges between navy commanders as the incidents unfolded, reveal disbelief and anger ...

 

[jollyjacktar]

Reading that story just pisses me off all over again.  Can't wait to read about WIN.  (sarcasm)