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Sailor Derek de Jong and Other Ship Misconducts?

GAP said:
San Diego is a port town and you expect the guys to go out and not drink?

Go out and drink, but don't get arrested doing it. There's plenty of fun being had without making an ass of yourself. Perhaps recalling the ship will have the intended consequence of letting everyone know this conduct is not acceptable, as that message hasn't seemed to hit home yet.

For all those saying: "Why is this newsworthy?" Because the CAF is held to a higher standard than joe-blow civilian, and like it or not the RCN is now basically doing the bulk of our international operations. You can't say, "Look at all these drug busts we're doing, look at us!" and not expect the media to want to report misconduct either.
 
PuckChaser said:
Go out and drink, but don't get arrested doing it. There's plenty of fun being had without making an *** of yourself. Perhaps recalling the ship will have the intended consequence of letting everyone know this conduct is not acceptable, as that message hasn't seemed to hit home yet.

For all those saying: "Why is this newsworthy?" Because the CAF is held to a higher standard than joe-blow civilian, and like it or not the RCN is now basically doing the bulk of our international operations. You can't say, "Look at all these drug busts we're doing, look at us!" and not expect the media to want to report misconduct either.

Army perspective here  - about 20 years ago we lost a regiment due to misconduct and a lot of it involved alcohol.
Since then, as far as I know, we are dry on ops and on most exercises. There was a lot of crying and moaning at first but that has gone by the wayside.
 
And the navy has changed things too already with making it drier.  When I was on OP CARIBBE for example we were dry when we were in the box.  They went further with other ships with 2 drink limits in foreign ports as well.  And I also don't get gooned at sea either, and prefer to do my drinking on ship.  Cheaper and safer.

And cutting them off entirely won't solve jack and most definitely will make jack a very un-jolly tar.  Our neighbors down south have plenty of trouble when the kids get ashore trying to make up for all the dry times.  Saw the same behavior in decompression in Cyprus and UAE as well.  The Army doesn't have all the answers to these issues.

Both soldiers and sailors have for eons got into the sauce and got into trouble and will I believe for eons to come.  It's the nature of the beast.  I read the war diaries for the LDSH from WW1, the boys were getting themselves into antics just as they do today.  This is the MSM taking any and every chance to fling poo as they do.  But of course there will be I expect a knee jerk reaction to this latest scandal.
 
SeaKingTacco said:
I would think the that the high pay-off for the RCN would be to examine with some care both how COs, XOs and Coxns are selected for their positions and the (short) length of time they are in their positions. It always comes down to leadership.
That right there.

Unfortunately, that is a longer-term fix.  Once it's in the media, "they" (media?  politicians?) want a fast fix.

"Problem + reaction" doesn't always equal "problem solved".
 
jollyjacktar said:
And the navy has changed things too already with making it drier.  When I was on OP CARIBBE for example we were dry when we were in the box.  They went further with other ships with 2 drink limits in foreign ports as well.  And I also don't get gooned at sea either, and prefer to do my drinking on ship.  Cheaper and safer.

And cutting them off entirely won't solve jack and most definitely will make jack a very un-jolly tar.  Our neighbors down south have plenty of trouble when the kids get ashore trying to make up for all the dry times.  Saw the same behavior in decompression in Cyprus and UAE as well.  The Army doesn't have all the answers to these issues.

Both soldiers and sailors have for eons got into the sauce and got into trouble and will I believe for eons to come.  It's the nature of the beast.  I read the war diaries for the LDSH from WW1, the boys were getting themselves into antics just as they do today.  This is the MSM taking any and every chance to fling poo as they do.  But of course there will be I expect a knee jerk reaction to this latest scandal.

You are correct in saying that the Army doesn't have all the answers. Many have said its leadership issues, but it's more than just  that.
Education and discipline is the key. There will always be those that step over the boundaries and you have to deal with them...not ban everything that troops get in trouble over.
 
PuckChaser said:
For all those saying: "Why is this newsworthy?" Because the CAF is held to a higher standard than joe-blow civilian, and like it or not the RCN is now basically doing the bulk of our international operations. You can't say, "Look at all these drug busts we're doing, look at us!" and not expect the media to want to report misconduct either.

Actually, I believe it is newsworthy because the admiral chose to use it to launch his "bold" initiative on drinking with it.

An internal communiqué hinting at this RCN wide review of alcohol policies that somehow finds its way into the press !!! Come on.

While recalling ships from Ops/deployments/foreign harbour visits is a rare thing, it is not unprecedented. However, you usually do it by sending the ship a classified recall message and dealing discretely, at least until the investigating of the circumstances is done and the facts ascertained, with whatever issue caused the recall when the ship is back. A good captain coming home under those circumstances will sometimes come back into harbour at night. Since MSM don't usually monitor the to-ing and fro-ing of naval vessels, that works.

As for the present case, i'll say this (personal opinion here): Sailors have gotten in trouble in foreign harbour before, and will find ways to do so in the future - and, yes, drinking will be involved at times.

This said, our crew are a subset of Canadian society, so crimes will happen from time to time, but we all know that all proportions kept the CF has a much lower rate of crimes than the civilian population. Dealing with the "shoplifting" event: Crimes in foreign ports have happened before and we have procedures for dealing with this, especially with the Americans, that satisfy both parties. It is a simple disciplinary matter, not a reason to to recall a ship.

Similarly, we have had harassment problems before and we have procedures in place. Again not a reason in itself to recall a ship.

Finally , the drinking incident (which I gather was onboard): Difficult to say without particulars, so I won't comment except to say that again, by itself it might not justify a recall.

So why recall then?

I suggest that the main reason is that those three events occurred out of the same small crew of an MCDV. It is then important for command to determine if this is just a statistical "blip" - a coincidence, or if there is an underlying problem, then likely to be found in the ship's command team. The admiral may have already lost trust in that team.

BTW, I have sailed with the French and Belgian navies, where the messes have wine and beer "on tap" for free. Their seaman drink that instead of water or milk or juices with their meal and casually when off watch. With the Brits, I found their way of handling drinking on ships to be close to ours. Finally, anyone who has sailed with the US Navy knows that sailors find a way to get alcohol onboard and drink themselves stupid even with  the consequences of such act, and that they go a lot crazier with their drinking/disciplinary problems ashore. It's not availability of alcohol onboard that is the problem, but the systems in place to prevent or control abuses (and I don't mean rationing). I'm with SKT here: I don't drink at sea but don't mind a few stiff ones in the mess when back in harbour. Funny enough, my experience is that the very large majority of sailors are very reasonable in their drinking at sea.

 
Jim Seggie said:
Pardon my ignorance but how many people crew an MCDV?

Max bunking capability is 47. That includes the upper bunk In the Captain's cabin which is reserved for senior officers.  It also includes the accommodations pod (6 bunks) which was likely filled as well.  The REMAR (core crew absolutely required to operate the ship) is 31.  The additional 15 bunks are 'owned' by the coastal Personnel Coordination Centres and are generally 'reserved' for trainees.  The amount of trainees embarked is subject to the operational requirements of the ship (I.e. Embarking a law enforcement detachment for Op Carribe, embarking a med tech/physicians assistant or public affairs/combat camera folks)
 
Well we don't have a bigger picture here as to why they were recalled.  Maybe someone important (police chief, mayor, foreign commander etc) complained and they felt the need to reassure them by recalling the whole ship. 

It may have been knee jerk but maybe it was to maintain good relations by taking decisive action.

:dunno:

In time I'm sure details will emerge.
 
According to last nights news, it probably wasn't just a matter of being drunk in a foreign port.

One of the sailors in question, according to the news, was arrested for shoplifting.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
.... our crew are a subset of Canadian society ....
If this is the case (and I believe it is), then ....
Oldgateboatdriver said:
BTW, I have sailed with the French and Belgian navies, where the messes have wine and beer "on tap" for free. Their seaman drink that instead of water or milk or juices with their meal and casually when off watch ....
.... these crews are a subset of their own populations, which (if one would consider them more like Italians than North Americans in approach) have very different ways of dealing with alcohol in general.  For example, I remember as a youth being offered a bit of wine with pop or water at the table.  This means we also have to change Canadian attitudes/practices to drinking in general, something that would take even longer than ensuring better leadership.
 
milnews.ca said:
If this is the case (and I believe it is), then ........ these crews are a subset of their own populations, which (if one would consider them more like Italians than North Americans in approach) have very different ways of dealing with alcohol in general.  For example, I remember as a youth being offered a bit of wine with pop or water at the table.  This means we also have to change Canadian attitudes/practices to drinking in general, something that would take even longer than ensuring better leadership.

Unfortunately, if you go back to the starts of North American History, you will find it all starts with the first immigrants......the Puritans and similar like minded Sects..... >:D

Attitudes towards alcohol are also changing in Europe, with more stringent legislation being brought into effect on 'impaired charges'.
 
jollyjacktar said:
.... Saw the same behavior in decompression in Cyprus and UAE as well.  The Army doesn't have all the answers to these issues.

This is the second ref in this thread comparing decompression in Cyprus to this incident. I don't think the two can be compared apples to apples - the vast majority of those on decompression in Cyprus, myself included, expunged a lot of demons there while finally getting a chance to relax after, in some cases, being stuck out in the wild west for many months. Yes, a lot of people had too much to drink, but I can attest first-hand that some of those who partook in too much alcohol did so to numb a lot of pain / finally unwind and in the process got into some trouble. Some of it was due to being dry in theatre, but I would say the majority of it was as mentioned.

Not looking to start an inside the wire / outside the wire or CA vs RCN slinging match, just pointing out that the two cannot be compared straight across  :2c:

And for the record, I drank a lot there, but I was smart enough to go to ground when I had a hard time seeing straight.
 
George Wallace said:
Unfortunately, if you go back to the starts of North American History, you will find it all starts with the first immigrants......the Puritans and similar like minded Sects..... >:D
Good point.

George Wallace said:
Attitudes towards alcohol are also changing in Europe, with more stringent legislation being brought into effect on 'impaired charges'.
While Europe seems generally more relaxed about drinking, you're right there as well. 
 
You don't even have to go that far.

If you look at it collectively (not on individual basis where exceptions can always be found), I think most of you may have noted that the Quebecers in the CF have a different approach to alcohol consumption for that very same reason of more relaxed societal view of consumption.

When I grew up, at home, wine cut with water at meal time during the week-end was normal and I was introduced to it from age 10 on.

I have done the same with my two boys - introducing them early, letting them taste things and educating them about alcohol. They are both young adult now and feel no compulsion to go out every week-end on drinking parties or pub crawls.
 
Capt. Happy said:
This is the second ref in this thread comparing decompression in Cyprus to this incident. I don't think the two can be compared apples to apples - the vast majority of those on decompression in Cyprus, myself included, expunged a lot of demons there while finally getting a chance to relax after, in some cases, being stuck out in the wild west for many months. Yes, a lot of people had too much to drink, but I can attest first-hand that some of those who partook in too much alcohol did so to numb a lot of pain / finally unwind and in the process got into some trouble. Some of it was due to being dry in theatre, but I would say the majority of it was as mentioned.

Not looking to start an inside the wire / outside the wire or CA vs RCN slinging match, just pointing out that the two cannot be compared straight across  :2c:

And for the record, I drank a lot there, but I was smart enough to go to ground when I had a hard time seeing straight.

Out of curiosity, as Capt Happy has come on to say that these are NOT comparing apples to apples, does anyone know of any problems faced by other Allied nations troops,  who had less stringent alcohol regulations in theatre, on when they were on 'Decompression'?

I am a believer that since the Mid '80's, the PC treatment of Canadian Service personnel as 'children' with overly restrictive alcohol regulations, has been the cause of more problems when those Regulations were lifted than previously without those PC policies.  I saw it in Germany where a whole Sqn, from the lowest Cpl to the CO all went hog wild on a weekend during Reforger when they were allowed alcohol and there was a Beerfest on in the town they were leaguered outside of on the Czech Border.  Before there were these PC 'Alcohol Policies', the majority had handled their liquor like responsible adults, but when they fell under the 'No Alcohol' policy, once it was lifted they acted like kids in a candy store.

Stress may be a factor, but I think the treatment of the members as mindless, irresponsible children was more likely the larger cause.
 
Capt. Happy said:
Not looking to start an inside the wire / outside the wire or CA vs RCN slinging match, just pointing out that the two cannot be compared straight across  :2c:

Nor am I.  The point I was wishing to make is that if you have groups of troops who have been cut off from the goodies so to speak that they will hit it harder when given the opportunity, which can result in incidents occurring.  As has been pointed out by those of us who have seen it, just look at almost any USN ship in foreign port for liberty after several months at sea.

I know that decompression was an opportunity to exorcise some demons that were justly haunting them and I'm not decrying that as I truly do understand.  But, perhaps if there had been a mechanism to let them exorcise them bit by bit during their time there it might make the amount of exorcism a little smaller.  Prohibition of any sort generally tends to make a person hit it that much harder when the smoking lamp is lit, does it not? 

There's a reason why pressure cookers have safety valves installed if you want to look at it another way.
 
jollyjacktar said:
But, perhaps if there had been a mechanism to let them exorcise them bit by bit during their time there it might make the amount of exorcism a little smaller.  Prohibition of any sort generally tends to make a person hit it that much harder when the smoking lamp is lit, does it not? 

I do agree with you there, but in the case of allowing pers to drink in theatre, I am not sure of the correct answer. I do know that 2 beer were allowed on special occasions such as Christmas, but the coordination and tracking of that vs force protection was quite involved. To be able to do that on a more regular basis could potentially be problematic when it comes to being ready to react to incoming threats that can pop up unannounced; area dependant of course.

To be honest, I don't know of a "better way" to deal with this for CA units in the field, but I do agree with George that treating our pers like kids is counterproductive. Even after knowing how we got to this point  - I think we should be selective in our targetting of the bad apples vice applying blanket policies of prohibition across the board.

In the case of this ship, do they not have access to alcohol while underway? Again, I don't think that you can compare this incident to the ones in Cyprus, except for the similar knock-on effects (negative publicity, lack of trust in the leadership, blanket prohibition, etc).
 
I think this was said earlier, but as one of the resident "dinosaurs" pleases allow me to give some background.

In the 90s I found the message coming from higher HQ was that soldiers were not to be trusted, nor should they be allowed to be given tasks then allowed to do them unsupervised. If a Pte was given a task, he had to have maximum supervision at all times so he could not make mistakes and learn. He had to have a MCpl or Sergeant peering over his shoulder at all times.
This was in reality the "decade of darkness" that plagues our military to this day.
 
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