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Regimental System under review

I think a study of the Regt system in the Canadain Army is due. I am glad it is taking place. The British Army from which our current system is based from, has had for the most part no real trouble in axeing and reorg Regts. They axed the Seaforths in the 60‘s I think? and in 94 the Gordon Highlanders joined with The Queens Own Highlanders to form a new Regt called the Highlanders. I served as a PPCLI Warrant Officer in the early 90‘s in Croatia. My Rifle Platoon had about a 50/50 mix of Reg and Milita. I must have had at least 5 different Milita Regt‘s in my Platoon. We did an excellent job in a very dangerous and tough enviorment and sometimes under enemy fire. The fact that I was a Patricia and they were Westies, CScots, Cal Highs, Rileys or what ever, had no bearing on how we accomplished the mission at hand, or our morale. At the end of day we were all Canadians serving our country overseas. I think the Regt system in Canada is due for a change..... Hey if for no other reason it would even out the 031 postings to the Infantry. Pet or Edmonton hmmmmm what would I choose:)

FF
 
Recruit old buddy. Let me tell you one thing from personnal experience. Full out war or peace keeping, it makes very little difference what they call it in the history books when you are at the pointy end and it is time to put up or shut up.

Thanks Grizzled Vet. Most people call me a herotic when they hear my plan for the Canadian Sihk Regiment. I say, let the militia be the link to the public that it claims to be (and is not) and bring new Canadians into the CF. If you can have some guy walking around with trues or a kilt for CFs why not a Gukry, or Turbin. I could solve a lot of the CFs multicultural problems and recruiting problems if people would open their ears and minds to new ideas.

What I will say on this issue is that, I went to a function on the weekend where I saw a lot of my old muckers, former CO‘s, 2ICs and even some of my old OCdts and it was nice to have a beer with them and talk about old times, but, that does not mean we can‘t look at this system or that it impoved my effectiveness in the field.

:tank:
 
In response to certain posts above...you‘re right. Give my regiment a meaningless name or number, empty our messes of relics and momentos of previous campaigns, burn our official regimental history, take away it‘s heritage, it‘s history, its legacy, everything that is meaningfull to it‘s members. That‘ll make it a more efficient fighting force. I‘ll repeat myself: make improvements, make the system better, but don‘t eliminate the system. All your historical arguments are impressive but pointless in this conversation, as I‘m not stating that other armies are worse for not having our system, I‘m simply saying that, on the whole, our system is not so broken that it needs to be scrapped and replaced completely.
 
I have noted that this thread includes Robson‘s editorial, but not the piece written by Capstick that he attempts to counter. Here is the text of Capstick‘s article:

PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen
DATE: 2002.07.11
BYLINE: Mike Capstick
SOURCE: Citizen Special
HEADLINE: The army must evolve to stay relevant

The ongoing study of the Canadian Army‘s regimental system has generated critical commentary in newspapers across the country. Some basic facts and context are needed to understand why the army has initiated this project.

The study is part of a larger effort to ensure that the army‘s organizational culture -- the way that we do things on a day-to-day basis -- improves our operational capability and performance. This larger effort comprises a wide range of studies, and will consider all aspects of our current personnel and administrative policies.

Armies are about soldiers. The Canadian soldier lives and fights in the regimental system and it is the duty of the army leadership to make sure that it is strong enough to withstand the demands of combat in this new century. The aim is clear. As military professionals, we owe it to Canadians to provide them with an army that is ready to meet those challenges.

Recent reports and commentary in several Canadian papers, including Nigel Hannaford‘s column on this page, presume that there is a hidden agenda -- the abolition of the regimental system itself. Nothing could be further from the truth. The commander of the army, Lt.- Gen. Mike Jeffery, has called the regimental system "a fundamental foundation of the army." Clearly, the army‘s leaders understand the value of the regimental system.

The regimental system is the central organizing concept of the army, but it is not a monolith. It operates differently in each of our regular infantry regiments and in our numerous reserve regiments. In simple terms, it is an administrative structure that serves as the custodian of unit battle honours and history. In Canada, regiments usually consist of three or more major combat units or battalions; soldiers generally serve in the same regiment for most of their career. Even when employed in a staff position or, for example, at an army school, soldiers retain their regimental affiliation and membership. At its most basic level, the regiment is the focus of a soldier‘s identity and membership is for life.

Although the current system has a historical record of success, it would be professionally irresponsible to live in the past. On the very few occasions that the army has failed to live up to its reputation, aspects of the regimental system were at least partially to blame.

The regiment is often compared to the family. Not only is this an accurate analogy when applied to the strengths of both institutions, it‘s also accurate in terms of weaknesses and failures. Like families, regiments sometimes exhibit dysfunctional tendencies. This study will attempt to identify both the strengths and weaknesses of the system, eliminate the weaknesses and build on the strengths.

The regimental system is, in essence, a living, breathing thing that has evolved over time. It grew from the British tradition and it‘s roots and rituals can be traced to the Victorian era. The system matured in a time when the country was far more culturally homogeneous than it is today and when the stratified class system of the era was replicated in the regimental messes. In short, it came of age in a society that no longer exists.

As uncomfortable as this simple truth may be to some, there are aspects of the regimental system that will have to be adapted to ensure its continued utility as the basic building block of the 21st century army.

At the heart of the regimental system is the moral contract between the soldier, his or her leaders and the nation itself. Fundamental to this contract are the concepts of "unlimited liability" and the obligation to use lethal force in the defence of the nation. These are heavy burdens for any young man or woman and, implicit in this moral contract, is the understanding that "if anything happens, the regiment will look after you." Combat in Afghanistan and dangerous operations in Africa and the Balkans have reminded us of the vital importance of this covenant.

A major focus of this study will be an examination of what the regimental system says it does, compared to what it really does in terms of this understanding. There have been times in the past decade when both the central personnel systems and the regiments have failed to live up to their side of the bargain. One of our main objectives is to ensure these failures are not repeated.

The regimental system has served Canada and its army well. Self-examination is always uncomfortable. It also takes courage and determination. This study will explore our basic assumptions, question our underlying beliefs and, perhaps, result in important changes. At the same time, the nature of warfare and the military profession have seen seismic shifts in the past decade. It was a lot easier when we knew who the enemy was, where they were and how they would fight. Because the regimental system is so fundamental to the way that the Canadian Army operates, and is the foundation of our very identity as soldiers, failure to scrutinize it would be an abrogation of our professional responsibilities to the army and to Canada.

Colonel Mike Capstick is the army staff‘s project director of land personnel strategy. He commanded the 3rd and 1st Regiments, Royal Canadian Horse Artillery in Shilo, Man. and in Cyprus, and the Canadian NATO Contingent in Bosnia in 1997.
 
FF made a good point about the PPCLI bn that had 40 per cent militia - although a "composite" unit, they fought very well (and the CO would be the first to tell you so). The key here was a leader who made a unit out of many parts.

Quite a while back in this thread, the suggestion was made that the Regimental system is useful because it provided "cauldrons" in which raw material is forged into hardened steel, while also providing a mold to help shape raw recruits into soldiers. Perhaps the Regimental system provided the aforementioned CO with "ingots" vice ore - thus enabling him to polish his bn into its final form.

Rather than disparage the film "We Were Soldiers", look carefully at how these soldiers fought ... and died - as a unit. Their CO knew what was needed, and provided it to his men.

Inevitably, new units are formed and launched into battle - they are successful because they draw upon the heritage of their army/nation.

The Regimental system is simply a delivery method of injecting soldier-like qualities and backbone.

If it ain‘t broke, it don‘t need no fixin‘.

And, JJ said "Fear of change is the last vestige of the incompetent."

I would counter by suggesting the ability to intelligently object to a potentially fatal course of action is the hallmark of integrity (as opposed to being a "yes man").

Dileas Gu Brath
 
I would have to interject back "Since when did orders become a starting point for negotiation?" Maybe the CF wouldn‘t be in the state it is if everyone followed orders and went with the programme. I thought that is why we had a chain of command.

Oops there I go showing my true colours.
 
JJ said: "I would have to interject back "Since when did orders become a starting point for negotiation?" Maybe the CF wouldn‘t be in the state it is if everyone followed orders and went with the programme. I thought that is why we had a chain of command. "

Intriguing. What exactly do you refer to? I am partially familiar with the current state of the CF, but my question is - what orders have not been followed that have resulted in this current state of affairs?
 
It was interesting to see some of the followup BS in the Citizen after the initial articles by Mike Capstick and a columnist from the Calgary Sun.

Jonas, in best Canadian media fashion, took a number of cheap shots at Col Capstick, knowing full well no comeback would be allowed in our free press.

Secondly, a letter from a gentleman whose name I don‘t recall, (but who could have been "Appalled and Outraged in Nepean!!"), allowed that nothing better could be expected from an Air Force officer.

Not being one to normally offer praise to my gunner colleagues, I must note for the record that Mike Capstick is a long-serving and very credible member of the RCA, and of course RCHA when in regimental service.

A couple of thoughts for consideration.

There‘s been excessive comments about the meaning of "The Regiment" in WWI, WWII, and Korea, and deservedly so. Unfortunately the world has changed, we‘re in 2002 with an entirely new security threat and framework, and sometimes the past practices don‘t work any more.

Certainly, given the current strength of the Army/CF (again, a fact whether one likes it or not), retaining regimental affiliations places an excessive burden on the personnel system, by forcing one more restriction on the flexible movement of personnel.

Secondly, no one has mentioned it that I can see, but our armoured corps personnel rebadge frequently, regularly, and with gay abandon as they are posted from the RCD to LdSH to 8 CH and even 12 RBC. I don‘t believe the individuals or units are any the less or worse for that practice, which has gone on for some decades so far.
 
Oops, yet another thought - even our infanteers rebadged regularly when the (gasp) Canadian Airborne Regiment was extant, and its earliest incarnation, gunners, engineers, signallers, medics, CSS and so on all wore the CAR hatbadge.

Anyone brave enough to suggest the Airborne had a problem with spirit...?
 
As for following orders: How long did LFAA have to maintain two Bdes when it only had funding for one because after a reorg was approved, special interests groups in other areas delayed the reorg? Are there still two Bdes? How did soldier training suffer because of that delay and lack of funding for two bdes when if the programme i.e., only one Bde, had of been followed there would have been enough funding. Why did the comd of the army have to go on a travelling roadshow to sell LFRR to the honourary cols and associations? I thought he was the comd? So how long do we have to wait for change to take effect? until all the rice bowls are filled? So lets change levels here. How many fat discrace to their uniforms did you see today because someone in the COC has decided the PT test is not important? How many tasking orders will go unfilled for summer concentrations this year? We have all seen examples.

Ask yourself this. How many examples have we had of guys going to Bosnai or some place and losing a leg or geting sick. They then have to fight Canada Pensions or some gov‘t org for their benefits costing the mbr money and time. How often do you hear of the regeimental family taking some of the money made from the pockets of the soldiers and gaven to the associations being given to the mbr so he can retain a lawyer to fight to government on all our behalves. Concern for subordinates/mbrs of the regt family? All sizzle no steak.

But have no fear the regemental goats will be circled and this will just be another study. You know, I think the govt likes the regt system and enviornmental separation because it keeps us firmly diveded and conquered. Just how they like us to be.

just musings

Cheers
 
JJ, my apologies. Not only did you avoid the question altogether, but it appears I misjudged you. I thought you had something intelligent and significant to contribute, but all you‘ve done is condense 5 years of Espirit de Corps into a one-paragraph bitch session.

Want to take another stab at it? The question is - what orders have not been followed, resulting in the CF being in the "current state it is in."?
 
Has anyone checked who is doing these "studys" Ill bet its some friend of the new defence minister who has made generous campaing contributions...

Coniar
 
Gee wizz, now why would you wanna go and try and hurt this tankers feel‘ns like that. You need to chill out. What happened, did you spill your coffee and donuts on your favorite copy of soldier of fortune magezine on the same day your blow-up-doll sprang leak? Who died and made you the forum professor checking for content and footnotes? I thought that ranting was what this was all about? Are you this tough in real life or are you just an internet tyrant? You know the truth don‘t you. Thats why you never make eye contact with people. I gotta go watch big brother now. seems like time better spent. I don‘t read Esprit de Corps. Although I have looked at some of the pictures. :(
 
to defend my fellow Seaforth (not that i know which one I‘m defending), as the webmaster for the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada website, I‘ve received countless e-mails from American soldiers... mostly officers, wanting to become part of the regiment in some form. They, among many others understand the importance of regimental loyalty.

For more info, read the book "on killing"
 
(tee-hee ... a tanker agreeing with a Highlander ... heck must have frozen over when I wasn‘t looking ... chuckle)

Thanks to Mike O‘Leary for posting the Capstick article - now I know I was right to trust my instincts ... (i.e. gunners are often a pet peeve of mine ... but I digress ...)

On a scientific basis, it‘s curious whenever anomalies become "the rule". Here‘s where the hidden agenda is revealed:

"On the very few occasions that the army has failed to live up to its reputation, aspects of the regimental system were at least partially to blame."

Hmmm ...
"... very few ... aspects of ... partially to blame ..."

I wonder ...
Wouldn‘t the corollary of this be "The overwhelming majority of the time the army lives up to and exceeds its proud reputation, earned and forged in combat thanks largely to the regimental system."
 
My 2 cents on the issue:

In the end, I don‘t think changing the system will make the Forces more combat effective or terribly more administratively efficient. However, even if this were the case, I think that erasing and/or changing the system, especially by a Liberal govt, will hurt the morale of the troops. It will be seen as yet another blow by civilian bureaucrats who don‘t respect or care about the CF and its traditions. Whether that‘s acurate or not is irrelevant.
 
Dorosh
you seem to think quite highly of yourself and your opinion of others writting though i wonder if any one else does? You seem only capable of attack other‘s "non-academic‘ opinions but offer none of your own not on any academic level any how, so why don‘t you show us what a well written academic level work on the pros and cons of the regimental system looks like so that we can all follow your ‘superb‘ example. Maybe people don‘t put footnotes in the writting because this is a discussion board and no one is out to write a thesis.
Now I suppose you will attack my intelligence and in ability to write at an academic level, and if your opinion meant anythig to me maybe I‘d cry though i wouldn‘t hold your breath.. then again maybe you should!
 
Sadly, nothing undermines the opportunity for the collective minds of a message board to debate important issues more than having a significant topic degenerate into personal attacks. But for this, such conversations might merit some consideration on the basis of credibility by those examining the issues of the Regimental System.

M.O‘Leary
 
I think everyone can agree that unit cohesion is important. But it seems to me that the fact people are missing is that a unit, any unit , is made up of soldiers. How good a unit is depends entirely on the quality of the soldiers, and more importantly the leaders, who make it up. Old units can have lousy soldiers, and new units can have great soldiers, but no amount of history, trophies on the wall, or streamers on the colors, can make lousy soldiers into good ones. Yes, a units history can provide a degree of motivation, but it will probably only motivate those soldiers who will already do their job. In any case, it is the job of the leader to provide purpose, direction and motivation. The point is, units are made of people, and it is how those people work togeather, that they have trained togeather, know each other and trust each other, that will make the difference in combat, not what someone who happened to wear the same patch did fifty years ago.

BTW, it seems some of you think the US Army has no ‘regiments‘. That is not true. Although the regiment no longer exsists as a tactical unit (except for a few cases such as Airborne, Ranger, armored cav, etc), every battalion maintains the lineage and honors of their regiment. We just use numbers instead of names. We apparently don‘t get as wrapped up in it as you all do, if you go to a different unit, so what? But if you think Americans don‘t take pride in their ‘regiment‘ , go tell a paratrooper of Ranger that his regiment sucks. ;)
 
While you‘re right that no amount of tradition will make a poor soldier into an excellent one, the history is not meant for one individual. The whole point of having unit history, symbols, colours, traditions etc. is to help group cohesiveness. The more you feel like you belong to a group, the better equipped you are to handle a war. This was part of the problem the Americans had in Vietnam, and why Australia doesn‘t have the same degree of PTSD from its Vietnam vets. The Aussies were sent over a whole regiment at a time, rather than one or two soldiers sent to a unit as replacements. The same in WWII; a group of men would join together, train together, fight together, leave together.

If you ask any veteran of actual combat, they‘ll say that the thing that go them through it was their buddies. I‘m not trying to say that Americans don‘t have this group cohesion, as was stated there are the Rangers, Airborne etc., and those units (albeit elite ones) tend to have higher morale. The regimental system helps you be able to bond to the group, have a sense of belonging in sharing and participating in those traditions.

If you‘re interested, a retired USMC LCol wrote a book called "On Killing" which goes into this idea a lot. It‘s an excellent book, and has taught me a lot about the ‘group mentality‘
 
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