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Regimental System under review

Gordon Angus Mackinlay

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Regimental system going under review
Cover-ups a concern: Retired officers say age-old tradition fosters loyalty

Tom Blackwell, with files from Michael Friscolanti
National Post

Tuesday, July 02, 2002

Military officials are launching a major review of the army‘s age-old regimental system, following criticism that regiments can be paternalistic, old-fashioned and susceptible to cover-up when wrongdoing occurs.

From the Somme to Afghanistan and through numerous wars and peacekeeping missions, regiments have been the backbone of the Canadian army, offering soldiers kinship and camaraderie in exchange for loyalty to the death.

But regiments, like the one currently serving in Afghanistan, have also been criticized for fostering a culture of loyalty so extreme it may lead to silence and cover-up when wrongdoing occurs.

The review, being conducted by a Canadian cultural anthropologist based in Holland, could prompt major changes to a historic structure that, among other things, sets Canada‘s Armed Forces apart from its American allies.

"The sense that there may be problems is there," said Col. Mike Capstick, who is overseeing the project. "Our gut tells us that the regimental system is well worth retaining, but at the same time our gut tells us that, OK guys, it‘s time to get out of the ‘50s."

Most army personnel belong to regiments, relatively small units that usually have long and storied pasts, such as the Princess Patricia‘s Canadian Light Infantry (PPCLI) now serving in Afghanistan, the Royal Canadian Regiment and the Royal 22nd, known in English as the Vandoos.

Soldiers often become members of a regiment for life, maintaining the affiliation even in retirement. It has been described as a sort of family that oversees most aspects of the soldier‘s life, including his advancement through the ranks.

The thought of altering such a system -- a system that the Americans once tried to emulate -- has upset some retired soldiers.

"They can go ahead and study it, they can even go ahead and change it," said retired Major-General Lewis Mackenzie, a former Commander of the 1st Battalion, PPCLI. "But they‘ll have a hard time convincing me and a large number of other people that it doesn‘t have an important place in the Canadian military."

Maj.-Gen. Mackenzie, who was also a member of the now defunct Queen‘s Own Rifles of Canada, said soldiers perform better on the battlefield knowing they are fighting alongside "family."

"The loyalty is almost instantaneous because you have this tremendous historical legacy to live up to," he said.

Jim Hanson, a retired brigadier general and analyst with the Canadian Institute of Strategic Studies, also suggested there is little wrong with the system. Its benefits were summed up, he said, by an old general who used to say " ‘I can get ‘em to die for the Royal 22nd Regiment, but I can‘t get ‘em to die for National Defence Headquarters.‘ "

Those who have raised concerns about regimental culture cite the Somalia inquiry, which looked into the beating death of a Somali teenager by members of the Canadian Airborne Regiment, now defunct, serving in the west African country in the early 1990s.

"Many officers and soldiers spend their entire lives in a single regiment and they naturally become blind to many of its faults," said the report of the inquiry.

"Information that could tarnish the reputation of the regiment may be deliberately hidden. Whistle-blowing is frequently perceived as counter to the corporate nature of the military."

Other criticism has come from inside. Some junior officers complain that senior commanders of a regiment have too much influence over their careers, acting as an unseen hand that pre-determines how far each of them can advance, Col. Capstick said.

Others question whether the role of regiment as extended family, social club and social-safety net is appropriate today, when many officers have spouses with their own careers, children and extensive lives off the base, he said.

But even if the study by Donna Winslow, who chairs the social and cultural anthropology department at the Free University in Holland and has studied military culture extensively, finds change is needed, the forces will not do away with a regimental system that commanders still believe is the best way to motivate soldiers, Col. Capstick said.

"People generally don‘t fight or do specific things in operations for Queen, country, the grand cause, Canadian values or whatever," he said.

"They‘re motivated by the kind of cohesion that is built up at the small unit level ... within the context of the regiment."

© Copyright 2002 National Post
 
Even doing away with the regimental system, soldiers would still be loyal and "regimental" to the unit. Look at the Americans. They are loyal to their numbered battalions and brigades. Especially the marines, airborne, and rangers. The money for this study could have been much better spent.
I recently read a book by an American paratrooper in WW2 called " seven roads to **** " in which he said ( paraphrased) that solders fight and die for their buddies and their subunit not the higher cause.
Futhermore, doing away with the Canadian Regiments would be taking away (hiding) Canadian cultural and milatay heritage. It would be a serious blow to the moral of soldiers who are already at their wits end.
Don‘t the Brits and Ausies still have their regiments?
Cheers
 
Ladies and Gentlemen,

The lady heading this review Donna Winslow wrote the following, which received much justified criticism.

Yours,
Jock in Sydney

"Rites of Passage and Group Bonding in the Canadian Airborne."
Armed Forces & Society,
Spring99, Vol. 25 Issue 3, p429, 29p
Winslow, Donna
"Abstract: Presents information on a study which discussed the issue
of primary group bonding and non-conventional methods for promoting
unit cohesion among members of the Canadian Airborne Regiment (CAR).
Historical background of the paratroops in Canada; Details of the
airborne rituals; Initiation rites; Conclusions."
 
How many of you agree with this statement:

"‘I can get ‘em to die for the Royal 22nd Regiment, but I can‘t get ‘em to die for National Defence Headquarters.‘"
- Brig. Gen Jim Hanson (Ret‘d)

From what I know of the regiments, it‘s their proud history and the close relationship that they develop between their soldiers that make them what they are - an effective fighting force. And as far as I have heard, there isn‘t much respect for NDHQ among the lower ranks.
 
The German Army did away with their regimental traditions during the postwar period, and it seems to me their army did just fine in WW II, as far as they were able.

I am not advocating the elimination of the regimental system, but let‘s be honest - it has as many drawbacks as it does advantages. The American system - of dedication to the Division - is not a bad one, and actually has advantages over the British Commonwealth system of devotion to the battalion.

The point made previously - of men fighting for their buddies in their own sections and platoons - is apt. It doesn‘t matter if they are in numbered battalions (don‘t forget that most regiments of the Canadian Militia were not even represented in the CEF, and yet they did pretty well too) or in named regiments, they fight for each other.

Honestly, look at the numbered battalions who didn‘t perpetuate any regimental traditions. The Tenth Battalion, the example I know best, was drawn from the Winnipeg Light Infantry and the Calgary Rifles. They brought no traditions or insignia from those regiments with them - they had no bugle horns, no black chevrons, they were granted brand new insignia with a simple TENTH CANADIANS monicker, and they fought bravely and well in every major Canadian battle of the Great War.

Did the lack of a "regimental" system hurt them? Perhaps in some ways, but did it matter? They built their own espirit de corps.

Armies create traditions where none exist - some stick, some don‘t. The Tenth were known as "The Fighting Tenth", a popular nickname, and "White Gurkhas", which was not popular and was the invention of one of the officers.

How is that different, or better, than calling a regiment with perhaps 5% of its population being drawn from Scottish ancestry a "Highland" regiment?

The Wehrmacht recruited regionally and its regiments had regional designations, as did its divisions - but many of the distinctions of the Old Army were done away with, and the German Army had a terrific elan.

Mostly because of the German work ethic, I would say (Canadians have little work ethic anymore), and a sense of comradeship between officers and men (the Canadian Army rigidly divides its officers, NCOs, and men, to their great detriment).

The regimental system can go or stay, it wouldn‘t matter in the end - we proved that in World War One. What needs to change, if anything, is the class structure of the military - getting rid of a few high paid generals would be a start.
 
I have had the opportunity to hear and review M. Donna Winslow and her works. IMHO she is a soldier groupie reject whanna be. She has studied some very hard and professional orgs such as some of Israel’s front line elite troops and several other nations such as the US SF elements. When I heard her rendering of and attempt to adapt her research to the CF I was shocked, she was comparing us and describing us based upon another countries military.

She is dangerous, opinionated and unfortunately held in regard as an authority in Canada.
:confused:
 
I have had the opportunity to hear and review M. Donna Winslow and her works. IMHO she is a soldier groupie reject whanna be. She has studied some very hard and professional orgs such as some of Israel’s front line elite troops and several other nations such as the US SF elements. When I heard her rendering of and attempt to adapt her research to the CF I was shocked, she was comparing us and describing us based upon another countries military.

She is dangerous, opinionated and unfortunately held in regard as an authority in Canada.
This board is really terrific if you like to read people throw out opinions and then not bother to back them up.

Not that I am disagreeing with you, or for that matter not that I agree with you, but on what do you base your opinion? Actual research and knowledge on your part?

If you would like to refute some of what she has said, do so now. The fact that she used another military to describe the CF does not in an of itself invalidate - or validate - what she had to say.

So how about some specific examples? I would be most interested in an actual analysis rather than just petty name calling.

A bit surprised also that no one has responded to my examples above - ie the German Army in WW II and the Canadian Army in WW I. Does that mean I‘ve gotten it completely right?
 
Well good sir,

That is my objective. I spent the day digging through boxes of old lecture knock offs so I could paste some of her academia.

I have sat and listened to her a couple of times and the last lecture I attended also had a number of Snr NCO‘s and O‘s there, serving and retired. When questions where posed regarding her comparisons, more specifically the disagreement with certain facts, the lecture was unceremoniously scrubbed due to an unexpected need to leave.

There have been those within NDHQ who have been advocating the removal of our current regimental system and replacing it with a numbered system similar to the US Army. The US has historically used this and those units have battle honours to match. A new system for us would be an internment of regimental colours and loss of historical precedence. In essence we would be starting all over.

Winslow feels that in light of the US model, we should adapt readily, but ask her about the loss of identity etc and she will quickly ref you off to a little desk on the 18th floor, the people cutting her grant cheques to do this for DND.

But, nuff said. When I get the info out of whatever box it is in, I will probably drive down to Calgary and give it to you personally so you can try to extrapolate how she can draw comparisons between army cultures in countries that have vastly different cultures than ours. Especially when comparing combat hardened units against untested units, and mixing in the homogeny of regular and reserve units and calling it all equal.
 
That‘s an interesting post, Harry, but you‘ve avoided all the main issues and once again simply given a visceral opinion.

If your unit is called The Queen‘s Own Rifles of Canada, and no one in your regiment has seen actual combat, you still don‘t get to call yourself "battle-tested". That depends on the individuals in the unit and their level of experience, NOT the name of the battalion.

Tell me - did the CEF not perform admirably despite "starting all over‘ as you put it? The 16th Battalion, for example, was an amalgamation of four different regiments - they adopted their own traditions and won four Victoria Crosses.

I am not saying I like the idea, I am asking YOU to try and discuss this without any emotion or the need to take cheap shots.

Now, specifically, what parts of our culture do you think preclude us from renaming our infantry units - what makes us so different from the Americans that this would destroy any chance of us having a competent military?

If there really are reasons not to do this, you haven‘t presented a single one.
 
Here‘s an idea...since the army apparently shows you how to do something *once*, then expects you to follow through, and since you apparently agree with Harry, why don‘t YOU post some good reasons?

Without having to poke holes in actual arguments, the abruptness of leave of this woman when asked serious questions does suggest some intellectual dishonesty on her part, but isn‘t proof positive.

Why are we getting all academic anyway? Because words mean things. If you have a solid, easily understandable reason for the things you do, and can explain WHY you‘re doing things, then even if those who lack sufficient basis in reality attempt to dismiss your argument, they have to bring dismissive, ad-hominem type attacks. You‘ll never convince them, but people who respect *reasons* will hear your argument and be able to correctly point out "Hey, that guy‘s right, she‘s an idiot!"

A lot of perfectly reasonable people can be convinced of stupid things because they don‘t take the time to sort out the flaws in an argument. If you point out the flaws, you reduce the amount of mental effort required for someone to correctly identify bull****. Not that they‘ll necessarily do that either, but at least you‘re improving the odds.

Plus, some people just go with common consensus....if a consensus of reasonable people agrees on something, sometimes the unreasonable ones go along too...

Gunnar
 
As I indicated, once I find the written word so to speak, I will hand deliver it to you.
 
The artillery is numbered, I am loyal to that number.
Their seems to be no problem with the artillery.
If it was the 6th Batt. 10th regt, 2nd Brig, 1st Div for example you would be loyal to 6 Batt 10 Regt and so on.
Same as 1 Batt, RCR, 2nd Brig, 1st Div
It‘s just that simple, but I‘m a herb so what do I know
 
I‘ve always admired members of the Marines. There is minimal BS about units and more esprit de corps about "The Marines". There is great unity of thought and purpose. Imagine if we could harness that energy?

I‘m not convinced that doing away with Regts would be a bad thing. Soldiers operate based on their relationships with their immediate superiors and peers. The question was asked would you die for NDHQ? No, but I wouldn‘t die needlessly for PPCLI, RCR or R22eR.

I‘ll go to war for Canada, but I will die for my men and my comrades.
 
I‘m not even going to try and dig through my basement (but buried down there somewhere are my papers/references culled from four years on the staff at CFCSC). Thus, having duly "whipped it out" in order to remind my confreres that I‘m not just ranting emotionally ...

I remember one guest lecturer (among many) who related the story of a British unit during the Second World War, in North Africa - please forgive me, I always forget the name of the regiment.

This regiment was on the verge of being routed, when somebody shouted "Heads up, The Regiment! Show them your cap badge!!!"

Well, this call to arms - in essence "rallying around the Regimental colours" - won the day. They dug in their heels, turned the tide of the battle, and kicked some butt (against great odds, and superior force/numbers, if I remember correctly).

Ironically, they weren‘t even wearing their cap badges (since they were wearing tin pots ...)!

And, most interesting indeed, this rallying cry came from ... a "mere" private or corporal ... !!!!! (hey - don‘t get me wrong - our most junior soldiers are the very life blood of our regiments, and our Army - I‘m simply pointing out that this leadership came from an "unexpected" source ... food for thought ...).

It says much when regimental pride can be used to instill great resolve, determination, pluck, and even courage.

I remember (and thank the contributor for reminding me) Gen Hanson‘s comment - BZ.

This headlong rush to destroy Canada‘s proud military traditions is dangerous, and I firmly believe there are hidden agendae which are NOT in Canada‘s best interest (don‘t you just love the word "Quisling"? I encourage you to look it up in the dictionary, just for fun, and then ask yourself whose name would be recorded in history for having been the well-intentioned dupe who hobbled the Canadian Army by subjecting it to unnecessary open heart surgery).

Great Canadians do great things.
Great Regiments win great victories.

P.S. (please note: personally, I despise the federal Liberal party spin doctors, and any other sack of merde who launches personal attacks in a desperate attempt to discredit somebody who has an opinion other than "the party line". Once in a while we should all slap ourselves, and be reminded of the timeless concept "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" ... having said that, I am inclined to agree that "consultants" are nothing more than shills who will say whatever the person paying them wants said - I don‘t trust Donna Winslow further than I can spunk).

Dileas Gu Brath,
M.A. Bossi, Esquire
 
So bossi, despite your irrelevant comments regarding the Liberal party and consultants in general (I am not saying I disagree, I am saying they are irrelevant to the question at hand), what does your post really say about the value of the regimental system?

Absolutely nothing. Mediocre regiments sometimes win great victories too.

So the dude who stuck his head up and yelled out "Up the Northants!" or whatever could not have inspired the same feelings by shouting "Up the 22nd!"

To further my earlier example of the Tenth Battalion, there was a similar incident at St. Julien where the battalion came under fire by massed machineguns and rifle fire during their 500 yard charge into Kitcheners‘ Wood. They went to ground, but an officer yelled out "Remember that you‘re Canadians!" This simple shout galvanized them, and they rushed the last 200 yards to the wood - and victory. Didn‘t need some romantic regimental name for that - they didn‘t have one.

If you really think you‘re not "ranting emotionally" I would think again.

On the other hand, The Brigade by Terry Copp talks about the very real problem of reinforcement officers arriving in 5th Brigade already wearing Black Watch shoulder titles and expecting to go to "their Regiment" for posting. Many battalions tended to promote from within where more capable officers were sometimes available outside the regiment.

That was certainly the case when, for example, Calgary Highlanders officer Vern Stott moved to the South Saskatchewan Regiment to take over.

I am fairly certain that any of the disbanded anti-aircraft artillerymen who who shuttled off the the Infantry in the autumn of 1944, during the reinforcement crisis, remained blissfully ignorant of the regimental histories and traditions of their new units.

Are you willing to go out on a limb and say that you really think they fought harder knowing they were a Riley or a John? Or did it not really depend on the company they kept and their interpersonal relationships with their platoon/section?
 
Oh, for Pete‘s sake ...

Why on earth would you throw such a "red herring" into your reply? You, in turn, have made a nonsensical comment when you somehow made the dubious connection between "the Northants" and the Van Doo‘s ...
(huh?)

Somehow, you‘re suggesting the ability of different soldiers to be loyal to different regiments rather than just one sole regiment justfies destroying the regimental system (... huh? I must have missed your substantiation ... hmmm ... no, I just read your post again, and you‘re still making an invalid, illogical association. Where did you learn debating? The Jean Crouton spin doctor school?)

However, I agree - it depended upon the company they kept and their interpersonal relationships with their platoon/section (as fostered by the regimental system vice the impersonal "depot" system) ... but maybe I‘m just ranting emotionally again, and therefore my opinion matters naught, and only the opinions of those who attack others really matters.

Upon reflection, however, I realised
 
Tuesday » July 9 » 2002

End regiments? Nonsense!


Times Colonist (Victoria)

Monday, July 08, 2002

There‘s something disquieting about the news that the Canadian military has commissioned a cultural anthropologist, of all things, to study our regimental system.

This news came the same day the Canadian Forces said they would have to turn away hundreds of potential recruits this summer because they lack the resources to train them -- an indication, perhaps, that rethinking the system that has served Canada well from Vimy Ridge to Afghanistan is not the army‘s most pressing need right now.

The regimental system might appear antiquated -- better suited to the days of scarlet tunics and cavalry charges than the era of smart bombs and anti-terrorist patrols. But though the system is indeed old, it‘s still effective. Canada inherited its version from the British, but virtually every European country developed similar military formations for the very good reason that they work when it counts -- in battle.

Regiments are not just bureaucratic units but living communities, with histories, legends and rituals. Under fire, soldiers‘ loyalty to each other is often more important to their discipline, survival and effectiveness than is their loyalty to "king and country." From Thermopylae to Afghanistan, soldiers have always been more willing to put themselves in harm‘s way to help a comrade than to defend some abstract ideal.

The system is not without its problems. Wartime virtues can, without due diligence, become peacetime vices. And adjustments are no doubt needed to make sure the regiments meet the needs of the modern soldier. Charges of sexual harassment and subsequent coverups, for example, have been frequent among our increasingly female forces.

But our cultural anthropologist should tread lightly. That regimental spirit serves our troops well not just in battle but in any tense situation -- as, for example, 10 years ago when they had to drive a column of armoured vehicles through the murderous factions in Bosnia to reopen the Sarajevo airport for humanitarian flights.
 
To summarize thoughts I pasted on the LFRR board: GIGO - ask wrong or insufficient questions; get wrong or insufficient answers.

Very few studies are commissioned from consultants for the love of abstract knowledge, or by someone who doesn‘t already think they know the answer (or seek a particular result). Why was this one initiated? The fact that undesirable behaviours including cover-ups and paternalism have been mentioned in the press articles provides at least some clue belying motivation. So what? Anyone with some time served is aware of the shortcomings of the regimental system with regard to parochial and paternalistic behaviour. Which is more responsible: the regimental system, or the corporate nature of the civilian/military blend of DND/CF? What, no one‘s thought to ask the question or commission a study of the "NDHQ system"? What other pertinent avenues of exploration have been ignored?

If there was nothing else to do, one could experiment with tweaks to the status quo. But the CF, and army in particular, have more than enough change to deal with right now.

So, while a study of the regimental system within the modern Canadian context may surely of itself be worthwhile, I hope no one proceeds to take any action without gathering all the useful evidence. There‘s no point trying to fix a flat tire by changing the oil.
 
Oh, for Pete‘s sake ...

Why on earth would you throw such a "red herring" into your reply? You, in turn, have made a nonsensical comment when you somehow made the dubious connection between "the Northants" and the Van Doo‘s ...
(huh?)
Who said anything about the Van Doos? I used "Northants" as an example of a British regiment, as compared to a numbered battalion - I used 22 as an example. You are reading far too much into it. You gave the example of the British soldier yelling "remember your cap badge" - and by extension, your regiment. My point was, could he not have gotten the same reaction from his mates even if they did not have some fancy regimental title? I gave another example of a Canadian soldier in the same circumstance yelling out "remember you‘re Canadians" that had the same effect - so your use of that particular story was, to me, not effective at "proving" anything about the value of the regimental system. It was actually quite irrelevant and emotionally charged.

Somehow, you‘re suggesting the ability of different soldiers to be loyal to different regiments rather than just one sole regiment justfies destroying the regimental system
I am saying that YOUR statements (they are not arguments) do absolutely NOTHING to further the case of keeping the regimental system. I do not advocate destroying the regimental system, I just haven‘t seen anyone post a single substantial point here in favour of it. My examples (the CEF, the Wehrmacht-Heer) show pretty solidly I think that the Regimental system can in fact be done away with, with very little loss of efficiency. I certainly don‘t advocate that this be done, but if you are going to argue that this is a bad thing - you have to state why. You‘ve given no good reasons whatsoever.

(... huh? I must have missed your substantiation ... hmmm ... no, I just read your post again, and you‘re still making an invalid, illogical association. Where did you learn debating? The Jean Crouton spin doctor school?)
Wow, ad hominem. Look it up, it means attack the man, not his ideas. Usually the last gasp of someone who knows he has no argument to make. If you do have a case to present, do it now.
 
Tuesday » July 9 » 2002

End regiments? Nonsense!

Times Colonist (Victoria)

Monday, July 08, 2002

There‘s something disquieting about the news that the Canadian military has commissioned a cultural anthropologist, of all things, to study our regimental system.

This news came the same day the Canadian Forces said they would have to turn away hundreds of potential recruits this summer because they lack the resources to train them -- an indication, perhaps, that rethinking the system that has served Canada well from Vimy Ridge to Afghanistan is not the army‘s most pressing need right now.

The regimental system might appear antiquated -- better suited to the days of scarlet tunics and cavalry charges than the era of smart bombs and anti-terrorist patrols. But though the system is indeed old, it‘s still effective. Canada inherited its version from the British, but virtually every European country developed similar military formations for the very good reason that they work when it counts -- in battle.
And some of the best armies in history - the German Army from 1939-1945, the US Army from 1941 to the present, etc., do not have a "regimental system". They do recruit regionally, and do have traditions associated with divisions, but they don‘t/didn‘t generally practice what we call the ‘regimental system‘. Nor did Canada between 1914 and 1918, and the CEF was one of the best fighting formations in history. So what does that tell you?

Regiments are not just bureaucratic units but living communities, with histories, legends and rituals. Under fire, soldiers‘ loyalty to each other is often more important to their discipline, survival and effectiveness than is their loyalty to "king and country."
Is the same not also true of a soldier in an anonymous, numbered battalion? How does the last sentence in that quote relate to the necessity of a regimental system? I don‘t see that it does.

From Thermopylae to Afghanistan, soldiers have always been more willing to put themselves in harm‘s way to help a comrade than to defend some abstract ideal.
What does this have to do with the regimental system? Wouldn‘t the small group dynamics be just the same regardless of the name of the regiment - or lack of a name?

The system is not without its problems. Wartime virtues can, without due diligence, become peacetime vices. And adjustments are no doubt needed to make sure the regiments meet the needs of the modern soldier. Charges of sexual harassment and subsequent coverups, for example, have been frequent among our increasingly female forces.
So soldiers in numbered battalions are more likely to rape fellow soldiers? I know I‘m being silly here, but what on earth does this entire paragraph have to do with the desirability or necessity of the regimental system?

But our cultural anthropologist should tread lightly. That regimental spirit serves our troops well not just in battle but in any tense situation -- as, for example, 10 years ago when they had to drive a column of armoured vehicles through the murderous factions in Bosnia to reopen the Sarajevo airport for humanitarian flights.
So they did that "for the regiment", did they? Or simply because they were good soldiers who did as their training and sense of personal honour demanded?

The use of the regimental system is a great recruiting tool, and should be retained for that reason alone - the kilts and pipes of the Highland regiments, for example, the black beret of the RCAC, all that stuff is great for drawing people in. I don‘t see that it matters a damn in action, given the historical examples of fighting forces that have none of that.

What kind of regimental traditions did the average North Vietnamese Army soldier who won the war in Indochina have?
 
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