PTSD / OSI [Merged]

[3rd Horseman]

All very good points it begs the question do we need a different system to identify mental stress cases?

I posed a question earlier and gunner 98 responded with a very good medical comment, but what about solving the problem. I would suggest a solution would be to separate the mental disorder into three areas as follows:

  Combat Stress  - this would require the original DSM on PTSD and could result in DVA pension and Med release if the soldier did the right thing.

  Work related non combat stress - this would not classify as PTSD and would result in no pension but would be treated as a stress disoder same way as if you worked for IBM and had a nervous breakdown. Re-muster or other type of support may be offered to get soldier back to work.

  Mental disorder aggravated by work related stress - This would also not qual for PTSD and would be dealt with as above and end up as release with no med pension.

  Thoughts? They are the cases we are talking about.

 

[LOSTSOUL72]

I do not belive they were or are being handled properly. We are 100% sure my father suffered from PTSD and we as a family had no help from anyone. We  as a family had to learn how to help, and to cope with it. It was hell when my father went back to Korea mentally before he died and we had no one to help us understand and to this day we still don't. I know dad went through hell in Korea. He saw his best friend get blown up then he was the one to clean it up. He was also in the Special Forces and we cannot get any info on that either. All we were told was that dad was no choir boy. Can someone please help me understand what dad went through?

 

[3rd Horseman]

As a PTSD sufferer I would be pleased to talk issues in detail if you PM me,  I am sure others would not mind chating with you on a PM basis, rather sensative issue on the open board. That goes for others to. You can go to a PTSD OSSIS meeting for spouses Im sure they would welcome you. PM me and I can put you in touch with a group.

 

[paracowboy]

He was also in the Special Forces and we cannot get any info on that either.

Was he in the American Army?

 

[KevinB]

Sigh.

I had the opportunity to have a training venue down south.  One of the instructors was 180A (SF WO), he explained that the number of SF and Cbt Arms PTSD/CSR (whatever we call it today) issues was incredibly smaller than non combat arms personnel.
Looking at Col Grossman's On Killing, and On Combat on can see why - specifically SOF pers have much lower results even with much higher deployment rates (and 'furrier' gigs) - they are well trained and they know their mission.

He brought up the fact that since the US involvement in the Balkans their troops have had an increase in problems --> why - the lack of a clear mission.

 

[PPCLI MCpl]

Sigh.

I had the opportunity to have a training venue down south.   One of the instructors was 180A (SF WO), he explained that the number of SF and Cbt Arms PTSD/CSR (whatever we call it today) issues was incredibly smaller than non combat arms personnel.
Looking at Col Grossman's On Killing, and On Combat on can see why - specifically SOF pers have much lower results even with much higher deployment rates (and 'furrier' gigs) - they are well trained and they know their mission.

Wasn't the reasoning behind the SF's lower occurrence of PTSD because Marchand's theorized 2% "aggressive psychopaths" tend to congregate in SF type units?

That is not necessarily a bad thing, by the way.

 

[KevinB]

I know that has been speculated - but given the number of SF soldiers, the differing mission/duties - and the data I saw given out by the CWO(3) I would tend to think the US Army knew better.

 

[3rd Horseman]

It is nice to get into the meat of the matter.

 KevinB and PPCLIcpl have good points that lean to the technical details of PTSD, SF lower casualty rates give one the impression that better training and mission comprehension coupled with very high esprit de corp will keep results down, probably true. As PTSD really only manifests itself after extracation from the mission you can go on for a long time mission after mission without it causing a down fall. I would suggest the tempo of SF units is a direct cause to the low in service rate, I wonder what the post SF unit or release rate for SF soldiers would be.

 As for my comment about the meat of the matter, it lends a view to my opinion that a PTSD or (combat stressed) soldier is a better fighting machine, combat stress does not reduce the effectiveness of the soldier it enhances his capabilities to kill. It is the prolonged exertion and the body operating at this high kill tempo that chemically and mentally changes the soldier and once removed from high tempo will collaps for lack of a better word.

 In the boar war and WW1 they called it "bloodying the troops" getting them hard to killing before the big push. I wish if I went back into battle to be with a unit full of Cbt stress guys as they fight like madmen and that wins wars. As for the comment of 2 % psycho rate attracted to the SF could be I don't know but for that one helmets on some black ops guys may chime in.

 

[KevinB]

3rd - read Grossman's On Combat

While CSR is a real and keeps you "in the moment" the stress etc that keeps you in teh front brain can cause problems if left that way too long.

PTSD is NOT CSR -- PTSD is a follow on that affect some.

The CF still does a very poor way of teaching all of this.

 

[TCBF]

"Remember the only people who don't get PTSD are psychos." - 3rd Horse


I disagree.  People who have been properly socialized militarily, well trained and well led are much less likely to get PTSD under similar circumstances than those who believed all of the psychobabble 'boy scouts with guns' propaganda so prevalent the last 20 years. 

Instead we get the "I saw body parts (sniff)".  Well, yer a SOLDIER.  About bloody time you saw body parts.  On a good day it's the enemies.  On a bad day, your friends.

Soldiers seeing body parts is like a firefighter seeing a burning house.  It surprised you HOW?

To those who would disagree, I would ask "Just what the ____ did you think you were getting into?  The SALVATION Army?"

So.  Yes, do to poor preparation of our soldiers, poor leadership during and after missions, and empire building by the socialist worker mafia, we now have RAMPANT abuse of the system.

So much, that those who actually need help are ashamed to get it, lest they be associated with those abusing the system and STEALING resources that should be used to help others.  An act of FRAUD, if not sabotage.

Perhaps we should institute proper psych screening as part of the recruiting process.  If other countries can test each of their conscripts, we should be able to test all of our volunteers.

This will become much more important as future waves of Ritalin and Ecstacy moulded personalities begin to reach the recruiting centers.

Remember, ten more Clayton Matchees, and we won't have an Army left.

Tom

 

[the 48th regulator]

more BS!!!!

I am so sick of this all this whining! Ever since VA starting giving out cash everybody has PTSD!! \

I had to fix the acronym 3 times! Man am I stressed!

Really eh,

Thank you very much,   I will remember that when I have to go for my next visit.

You know, I get annoyed by the whining as well, here let me highlight one of them "I am so sick of this all this whining! Ever since VA starting giving out cash everybody has PTSD!! "

It is statements like that that harm those of us that try to get the treatment.   You think I am in it for the money?   Then you are sadly mistaken.

For a person that has given the military as much as you have, I don't go by the profile by the way, I would expect a little more understanding.

dileas

tess

 

[buddyhfx]

Soldiers seeing body parts is like a firefighter seeing a burning house.   It surprised you HOW?

To those who would disagree, I would ask "Just what the ____ did you think you were getting into?   The SALVATION Army?"

So.   Yes, do to poor preparation of our soldiers, poor leadership during and after missions, and empire building by the socialist worker mafia, we now have RAMPANT abuse of the system.

So much, that those who actually need help are ashamed to get it, lest they be associated with those abusing the system and STEALING resources that should be used to help others.   An act of FRAUD, if not sabotage.

I totally agree with you Tom....

 

[TCBF]

I think perhaps HFXCrow may have mispoke hisself.  He, like most of us, no doubt feels that the abusers actually make it worse for those who need help.  As far as those who need help - and there but for the grace of God goes all of us - having waiting rooms half full of guys boasting about how much money they are being paid not to work cannot be much fun.

I think the system will over react and clamp down in a big way in such a manner as to hurt the ones who need the treatment.  Same with medical pensions, Workman's Comp here we come.

Tom

 

[3rd Horseman]

Guys what do you think of my 3 category system?

KevinB I agree CS is the moment but the may get PTSD I disagree all will get PTSD after CS it is just were and when and the recovery is about all the training and help and doing the right thing.

I will check out Gosmans book I think I tread it or more like parts of it a while ago but due to my PTSD I cant remember I will revisit.

Tess I would be interested in your opinion of the 3 categories and in defense of crow he was at Halifax I think and tess I was there and I can tell ya its a ses pool of fakers giving the legit guys a bad name. I think that was his rant.

EDIT: Grosmans

 

[the 48th regulator]

Fantastic,

And the next meeting I attend, when we bring up why we feel there is the opposite happening right now in Ontario, I will state that Halifax is on the the ball, and maybe we should see what they did in having people come in droves.

And if crow, or anyone else, can suss out the fakers from the real ones, well then my hat is off to you.  Please go on a Canada wide tour and help us save millions on treatment from the fakers....

PTSD, unlike a back injury, is not that easy to fake, and if anyone wants to go through the battery of tests, that are involved, in hoping that they get a free paycheque, by all means go for it.  I have had the most stressful time for the last 12 months, let alone the last ten years, just to get to see someone to help.


dileas

tees

 

[TCBF]

And that's what bothers some of us the most:  You have a hard time getting help, while others less deserving (and in some cases, not deserving at all) milk the system.  No justice.

Tom

 

[buddyhfx]

This is just like I said, if your the type of person that can say it, and ''push it'' to the limit at the right place,at the right time to the wrong people, you get it all. Meanwhile, the deserving members that does really need it, does'nt get it. The most majority of ''qualified'' people that we have in the system to treat the affected personnel, just don't qualify for the job. Any members with a bit of experience knows that, and whoever has the desire and the will to abuse it, might do so with no respect to others. If you have no family, physical or psychological problems you have to fill in for the others. In other words, if you're fit, you pay the the price for the unfit. On a operational base your turn comes faster than the other, eventhough you qualify as a normal person...

Please, lynch me if I'm wrong. (this S--- really gets me going)

Cheers..

 

[axeman]

Fantastic,

And the next meeting I attend, when we bring up why we feel there is the opposite happening right now in Ontario, I will state that Halifax is on the the ball, and maybe we should see what they did in having people come in droves.

And if crow, or anyone else, can suss out the fakers from the real ones, well then my hat is off to you.   Please go on a Canada wide tour and help us save millions on treatment from the fakers....

PTSD, unlike a back injury, is not that easy to fake, and if anyone wants to go through the battery of tests, that are involved, in hoping that they get a free paycheque, by all means go for it.   I have had the most stressful time for the last 12 months, let alone the last ten years, just to get to see someone to help.


dileas

tees

I agree with you 100 % . i know lots of ppl in your situation. ie forced out of the job they loved ,the CF. They like you went out and did a SH>>>Y job  because no one else was willing to .now they are truly paying for doing the job they were paid for . they were paid to follow orders of the officers in charge of them . this they did now they are paying the price . stress causes many things for many persons one of my friends sleeps about 3 hours a night and may be gets 2 hours of sleep through out the day  with out meds . another is like a human chihuahuia[sp] such a bundle of nerves he cant relax . never used to smoke now its like a 2 pack a day habit for him. another has cut himself off from friends and the world . another has driven his family into debt  for he cant stop gambling . yet another haas alomst drunk himself to death 3 times cant stop him .. etc the list goes on , yes i know there are fakers but there also the silent many not few that suffer for years before they realize whats the matter . while it sux that there are ppll that use the PTSD to get mooney and avoid work it is a real problem for a lot more ppl the you'd probably guess.not all have made it know they have it or even know they have it themselves.ahh well if someone knows how to separate the real from the fake , and how to treat it or avoid getting it while still maintaning a operational force let the doctors know . until this is done  we will continue to have soldiers suffer from it as a cost of doing business

 

[3rd Horseman]

Axeman

I agree with both you and Tess, the issue is the fakers and that is the issue because it keeps the real cases down or avoiding the system.

  You ask if there is a way to know, well there is.....the old DSM on PTSD would cut out many of the people we are talking about. The new DSM was changed this was the mistake and opened the flood gates. My doc who fought this and in my opinion was the best PTSD doc I have ever met and saved my life, would only PTSD diagnos with the old DSM.

  Cases like the NATO soldier in Germany during the cold war would not count.

  We would solve this problem if we used my catagory sysytem of three levels scroll up and pass opinion.   

 

[the 48th regulator]

3rd

I agree on the ones faking it, I should have sat down a cooled the jets before responding to Crow and yourself.   The both of you are stating situations that anger you, that actually harm the ones that do suffer from ptsd.

And that is what is truly at the core of the challenge, people who abuse the system, bogging it donw to the point of harming others.

dileas

tess