PTSD / OSI [Merged]

[Unknown C/S]

I'll throw in my 2 cents worth   now.........

a. The reason for being affected by the disorder (PTSD) is not easy to label. Everyone is subjected to different stimuli and this has varying effects. Most of us have heard others shaking their heads and saying "I was there, how could it have bothered him/her?" Leaders are not medical professionals. Although some take the term "jack of all trades" a little bit to far.

b. It is and never will be acceptable to admit a (perceived) weakness in the military. It is the equivalent of career suicide to come forward with this disorder. Pers who genuinely have PTSD are slapped with a double whammy. Unable to do the job, and unwanted by the military they dedicated their life to.

c. Once identified the stricken soldier/ sailor / airman is fastracked out of the military. Walked to the main gate and told don't come back. Quite frequently left to search for help in a civilian environment.

d. There are weasels that pick up all the PTSD brochures from their MIR. Conduct a little research, memorize the symptoms and magically have the disorder. These people that choose to jump onto this cash cow bandwagon usually walk out the gate with a smile on their face. In ref. to (b.) they never really could do the job and they did not want the military. They also found it impossible to dedicate their lives to anything.

There I have ranted........ The bottom line: when a good soldier goes bad a red flag should be raised indicating help is needed. It will be a long road to get control of the disorder. It is a terminal diagnoses as far as a career is concerned.
When a bad soldier goes bad start the release paperwork and offer a ride to the gate...............

 

[3rd Horseman]

Unkown C/S

  I can agree on some issues you have made but "weakness" it is not! Thus one does not have to admit weakness. If we had a better system of categorizing the issue then it would not be seen as a weakness but a normal result of combat.

  I believe you have been taken in a Little by the psycho babble if you believe that it is a weakness or one may or may not get it. I am of the belief that all will get it given the same circumstances the issue then becomes who comes out of it faster and to what extent as not yet defined.

  The separation of the category system which I support is so the leaders and others can define the difference between the true and false claim. Now don't get me wrong one could have a mental disorder and be faking PTSD they are the ones that give the valiant soldier who is suffering in silence the bad name. I agree with some of the posts about not being able to fake it if your healthy that is probably true it is the ones that are mentally ill from other issues non CF non Combat that I am calling fakers in the PTSD game. They appear to have PTSD and are actually very ill JUST NOT WITH PTSD!

 

[LOSTSOUL72]

Was he in the American Army?

No he wasn't in the American Army he was part of the Saskatchewan Dragoons 28th Army Militia SF 21437 and his service number is L 808548. He was originally from Nova Scotia

 

[pbi]

But, considering that even in wartime a unit spends only a small amount of its time in actual combat, aren't you risking the unit falling apart if it is mainly made up of people suffering from cbt stress?

Cheers

 

[Unknown C/S]

3rd Horseman

  I stand corrected, I should have said "perceived weakness". I certainly have not been duped by the statements or comments of others. It is common knowledge that PTSD victims within the regimental system will immediately be ostracized by peers and looked down upon by supervisors. (what happens behind their back cannot be described)
  My statements are meant to shed light on the facts. It is not what I believe the way it should be.

 

[3rd Horseman]

pbi,

    Good point the answer is yes that is the risk but I would contend that a unit does not fall apart until after rotation away from the front and out of action. To have a unit rotate to reserve and then rotate back in does not give time to allow the meltdown. And that is were good unit esprite de corp comes in to hold the team together meltdowns occur individually if the team is together it can go on rather wounded for a long time. I should tell you from my perspective I gave the simple view, the dynamics of my argument are very complicated with many variables I gave the short version. Furthermore combat stress is an accumulation of combat under specific criteria a simple one of platoon attack with expected results should not lend itself to combat stress. I would contend the problem works like this:

Combat (timeline is on operations) followed by specific criteria results in combat stress and manifests itself in PTSD later in the timeline.


Unknown C/S  I ranted on the weakness part for the people reading your comment I kinda figured you used it as a figure of speech. It is my personal button.

 

[army.gf]

As a former psychology student, i am quite distraught at reading all the posts labelling PTSD as a "weakness", for it is anything but. The weak ones are the ones who are not strong enough to seek help. I am angered to hear that PTSD sufferers are looked down upon in a military setting. May I ask why it has attained this reputation? Rediculing those who are geniuinely suffering only compounds the problem, and I should think that an occupation with such a high stress level and incidence rate of PTSD would have a more favourable and understanding outlook. When someone does find themselves to be inflicted with PTSD, looking around them and seeing no options is debilitating. It really saddens me to think that this kind of thing happens every single day in the CF. Perhaps I just don't understand?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Your right, you don't understand........if you read the thread you will see that the "military" looks down on those who use the system when there is nothing wrong with them and thereby causing untold pain and more suffering to those who genuinely require help.....

...just as a personal example, I have been working with pysch. people for quite awhile now and I can find you 50 people tomorrow with exactly the same "symptoms" as that couple that was on the CBC show,...and I can guarantee you they have been nowhere near the CF, they just like the "remedies" that they get prescribed.

 

[Gunner]

As a former psychology student,

Not to be rude, but you lost me at this point.

 

[Elisha]

I have to agree that there are many people that use this as a crutch and I am sure since the documentary appreared on CBC that many more will come forward with the symptoms described by those in the show.  It's a sad reality but it does happen...and yes...more than most would like to think or believe.  Its not a weakness per say but one has to be careful to what is deemed actually as PTSD and what are the symptoms that are 'text book' cases...


Tough subject...even harder to diagnose and understand.


Elisha

 

[PPCLI MCpl]

Former psychology student?


Did you perhaps grow tired of studying the intangible and got down to some serious science?

Why are you distraught?  The CF recognizes PTSD as a serious issue.  So do the majority of service members.  Bruce pointed out that most of the posts in this forum are supportive of those suffering from PTSD.  

And I would hesitate to label those those suffering who do not come forward as "weak".  It is understandable that they are hesitant, but that is a direct result of the perceived abuse of the system.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Anyone who would seek out a PTSD label is beyond contempt.  Believe me, I sure don't enjoy having it, and am the first one to think of it as a weakness when I'm in the bad place.  But, after snapping out of a rage where I nearly choked my oldest son out, it was time to get help, the hardest decision I ever made.  A leper would have got a better reception at my unit....

 

[pbi]

As a former psychology student, i am quite distraught at reading all the posts labelling PTSD as a "weakness", for it is anything but. The weak ones are the ones who are not strong enough to seek help. I am angered to hear that PTSD sufferers are looked down upon in a military setting. May I ask why it has attained this reputation? Rediculing those who are geniuinely suffering only compounds the problem, and I should think that an occupation with such a high stress level and incidence rate of PTSD would have a more favourable and understanding outlook. When someone does find themselves to be inflicted with PTSD, looking around them and seeing no options is debilitating. It really saddens me to think that this kind of thing happens every single day in the CF. Perhaps I just don't understand?

What we ridicule and revile are not people genuinely suffering: we are focused instead on the shameless lead-swingers, malingerers and MIR commandos who use PTSD-like "symptoms" (often with an amazing on-off switch) to get benefits and attention they are not entitled to. There is nothing new about this in the military: that is why we ended up with terms like "malingerer" and "MIR commando" in the first place. It is also a noted practice oout in society: this is why insurance companies employ investigators.

I can assure you, as somebody who has seen the effects of PTSD on soldiers at close hand, the Canadian Army today  is far, far ahead of where it was ten years ago when we first really started to come to grips with the idea that soldiers can hurt their minds just as easily as they can hurt their bodies.

Cheers

 

[TAS278]

It is truly a shame. As with anything one person can ruin it for the rest of us. I would like to express my sympathy to anyone who has had to endure what i could only imagine as complete hell.

 

[davidprogreso]

I have been researching this issue for over six years...and it will in time become a book.

I would like to share some background...and ask some questions.

First would someone please post the CF Diagnostic Criteria for PTSD.

Second...please post the Health Canada Diagnostic Criteria for Myalgic Encephalomyelitis aka Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS).

Then please read "The Sand Beneath Our Feet" by Brig Gen retd Joe Sharpe...RMC archives 2002.

Go to the Library and borrow the book "Oslers Wed" pub Penquin...check the US Military and Health Canada references.

If a few of you folks will do that...I will help you connect the dots!

Cheers

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

You have been researching for 6 years but need us to fill in your blanks?.............Sorry, but I smell a screw-job.

 

[rw4th]

Let me preface what I'm about to say, by stating that YES I do think that PTSD, when real, is a grave problem.

Ok, now what I have to say: I knew some people both before and after they were diagnosed with "PTSD", and I'm sure these people have been misdiagnosed.

If a person liked to get drunk and/or get into fights before "going over there", then that same behaviour on their return does not constitute PTSD. It may be a cry for attention linked to some sort of underlying personality disorder, but it is not PTSD caused by "what they saw over there".

These people have developed what I like to call "Back From The War Syndrome" (BFTWS). I have seen it in allot of reservist who spend 6 months on a tour, only to return to their McJobs or to unemployment. They start acting like veterans who have "seen the sh-t". Having known them both before, and after, I know for sure that this is just a method of grabbing attention and giving meaning to their dull and uneventful lives. Their behaviour did not significantly change, they just starting blaming their stupidity on PTSD.

This cannot possibly be a localized phenomena affecting only the people around me, so whenever I hear PTSD statistics, I have to wonder how many of those are actually in need of treatment, and how many are just cases of BFTWS and just need a good slap behind the head.

 

[3rd Horseman]

Rw4th,  Nicely said but don't forget about the ones who already have valid psychological disorders not associated with the CF and the person inflicted or med staff fined it convenient to label it PTSD.

Davidprogreso,

    Well you have come to the right place if you want to talk with PTSD sufferers possibly some of us can show you why the dots connect not just that they do.

    On your first point the DM for the disorder is posted earlier in the thread I do believe, if not it is in the PTSD thread on the CBC show. There is some controversy over it since it has been changed over the past 10 years. The new DM is not as restrictive as the original but better than the one that was changed in the late 90s.

 

[davidprogreso]

I am doing background research for a book on Canada's sick soldiers.

The CBC program may contain false and misleading information.

To get the background read "The Sand Beneath Our Feet" by Brig Gen retd Joe Sharpe. RMC archives 2002.

Just google Joe Sharpe and it should appear in first 3 pages.

If you cannot find it let me know.

In his paper Gen Sharpe states that hundreds of CF members, some of whom were discharged as medically unfit,
were "misdiagnosed and mistreated."

The result is that their condition was aggravated instead of improved.

For other background borrow "Osler's Web" pub Penquin 1997, and read the ref to Health Canada and the US Military.

Would be happy to hear from folks interested in helping with the research.

 

[Sabre1918]

I guess to explain "properly" as "adequatelly" it still wouldn't encompass the entire scope of help required.

As for being a medic, I do not intend "cared for" to only include physical needs, but also a vast spectrum of help, such as psychological, sociological, a support network, a greater awareness of the incidence rate, spiritual support, even educating so that mbrs with the disorder don't feel there is a stigma attached.

It is a disorder that touches many aspects of a persons life, tending to the physical needs is just skimming the surface, although a very important surface to skim.

For someone who claims to have such an interest in PTSD.....
One wonders why you haven't participated in any of these discussions
since you started this thread back in early Nov. ?
I'm actually surprised at how many people fell for this !

C'mon folks didn't we learn anything over those years in the CF
about sharing personal information with people we don't know....... :-X

Just a thought