Promotions in the CAF [Merged]

[Shamrock]

Section 1 - General

7.01 - RIGHT TO GRIEVE

(1) Subsections 29(1) and (2) of the National Defence Act provide:

"29. (1) An officer or non-commissioned member who has been aggrieved by any decision, act or omission in the administration of the affairs of the Canadian Forces for which no other process for redress is provided under this Act is entitled to submit a grievance.

(2) There is no right to grieve in respect of

a decision of a court martial or the Court Martial Appeal Court;
a decision of a board, commission, court or tribunal established other than under this Act; or
a matter or case prescribed by the Governor in Council in regulations."
(2) There is no right to grieve in respect of a decision made under the Code of Service Discipline.

(3) The right to grieve does not preclude a member from making an oral complaint to the commanding officer prior to submitting a grievance.

(G) (P.C. 2000-863 of 8 June 2000 effective 15 June 2000)

NOTES

(A) Subsection 29(4) of the National Defence Act states that a member may not be penalized for exercising the right to submit a grievance.

(B) Subsection 29(5) of the National Defence Act states that any error discovered as the result of an investigation of a grievance may be corrected even if correction of the error would have an adverse effect on the member.

(C) (25 May 2000 effective 15 June 2000)

As MCG has pretty much closed the loop on this, I'll point out this one last thing.  Should the trade opt not to fill those two new PO billets until the new fiscal year, you are still not guaranteed to get them as your ranking may have remained static after the reporting period - meaning you remain 3 and, perhaps, 4 and 5 have moved up to 1 and 2.

For further reading, I recommend http://www.cfgb-cgfc.gc.ca/English/home.html

 

[misratah500]

I've heard that too, but I've never been able to find a reference for the whole non promotion theory etc. He could say that he doesn't to promote because of shortages at the lower ranks or whatever but I can clearly point out that their is not a shortage, I believe I could have some ammunition proving that his line of thinking is incorrect. Or would I just be wasting my time?

 

[misratah500]

Well thanks for the quick answers anyways guys. The next 9 days is going to be a long one for me till I meet the CM. I'm hoping one of the units that wants their PO2 billet filled has the CM's ear and maybe we could talk and work something out and persuade him. Hopefully XMAS will come early this year.

 

[Shamrock]

Or would I just be wasting my time?

You do not have a vested right to a promotion.  While this may be a valuable bit of professional development for you, it will represent a considerate investment in time and money of the CF.

 

[captloadie]

If the message for promotion was not cut on Friday, you won't be promoted off of this merit list. As stated, you could grieve the issue, but unless you were bypassed to promote someone below you, what are you going to grieve?

 

[DAA]

If the promotion message has not yet been released (ie; approved by D Mil C), then you have nothing substantive to grieve.  The only thing you currently have is what the CM has told you and you can't grieve something that someone has "told" you.....  Just my thoughts.

 

[Good2Golf]

Keep in mind that un-filled positions are not directly tied to CMs being able to promote someone.  Promotions are conducted with regards to a trade's overall preferred manning level (PML) and the adjusted PML as may be authorized by DG Mil C.  Not every position in the CF gets filled with a warm body, even if that position previously was manned.  This means that just even though there may be a vacancy at a particular trade and rank, the CM is not necessarily in a position to promote beyond his/her authorized numbers.

In you case, you noted you were merited #4 in your trade and rank.  Whether or not you were/will be promoted depends on what the authorized numbers for promotion of that trade were.  If three or less, then unfortunately you would not be promoted. If you were within the trade/rank promotion numbers for the 2012 list and you were not posted into a PO2 position during APS 2012, then you would be promoted on 1 Dec 12 -- this situation happens a lot for folks "on the bubble" (i.e. near the bottom of the promotion numbers).

I agree with others who note that this is how the establishment/manning/promotion issue works and that you do not appear to be being disadvantaged or treated inappropriately.  You would need to carefully consider if grieving against an established and Departmentally-approved process is really to your benefit.  It is your right to grieve any situation wherein you feel you are not being treated appropriately. Take what I and others tell you as you see fit, but I think we are tracking this accurately.  Not to sound harsh, but I think you are the only person who believes you are not being treated fairly.

Regards
G2G

 

[misratah500]

Just an update, my promotion message was cut today. A day after the CM told me I wasn't getting made, he changed his mind. I not sure why he did, but i'm grateful he did.

 

[DAA]

:goodpost:

Glad to see things worked out for you......at what ever rank you have been promoted to!

It no doubt has been a good learning experience which you can pass on to your troops......

Like wiping your ass.....nothing is ever complete, until the paperwork is done!!!

 

[Pieman]

Just an update, my promotion message was cut today. A day after the CM told me I wasn't getting made, he changed his mind. I not sure why he did, but i'm grateful he did.

Ask him, if you feel he is approachable for that. Might be interesting to find out what was holding him back in the first place too.

 

[dapaterson]

It may be he was waiting for the AMOR - if an occupation is about to be reduced in strength, it's bad to promote to the current establishment, since you'll then be overborne at that rank and not get any more promotions for years.  Artillery Major in the 1990s is a classic example...

 

[ModlrMike]

Here's my take from 30 years experience. There's always at least 10% of the merit list above you who can't be promoted for some reason or other. Given that, if the CM says you're 12th out of 11 promotions, you should still be good because there's 1-2 ahead of you in the red zone. You might not see the promotion until Christmas, but your chances are still good. If your promotion forecast is less than five, the this calculation goes out the window.

 

[GnyHwy]

Aside from what others have said, I'll add another spin to this. Topping the merit year after year doesn't necessarily mean you will get promoted.  Not certain for all trades and elements, but from my experience the merit only gets you to the selection board.  Once at the board it is all the additional things such as: doing a job above rank, doing a special job (institutional), education, desire for more education, language profile etc.  It is all those points that get you promoted, and the MOI is only about 70% of the total points.

A person could be the greatest person in their job, be very capable of performing the duties of the next rank, do this year after year getting several MOIs in a row, but when they get to the board, they get their butts kicked because they don't have all those other points.

Sometimes it seems that the persons busting their *** operationally, who get the MOIs and get to the board, don't necessarily get promoted.  Conversely, the persons getting the extra education and that have the points, don't ever make it to the board.  This is only a perception, but it seems that the guys that are winning are the ones that just plug along, lay low in an "easier"(1) job that gives them high PERs, all the while accumulating the extra points along the way.

(1) Doesn't necessarily apply to Jnr ranks as exceptional Jnrs will always be put into tough jobs to challenge them.  Applies more to middle management jobs where the spectrum of employment is much larger and the difficulty level can vary quite a bit.

 

[Occam]

I think (and I may well stand to be corrected on this) what the OP was alluding to is this:

Smith, Bloggins and Jones are ranked 1, 2 and 3 on this year’s merit list, respectively.  The CM anticipates one promotion, and promotes Smith during the APS.  However, the CM knows that there will be a vacancy opening up prior to the end of the year.  So, on Dec 1, the CM looks at the merit list and says to himself “I really don’t like Bloggins.  I’m going to elect not to promote to PML this year, because I know from the merit boards that just sat that Jones overtook Bloggins on next year’s merit list, so Jones can be promoted into the vacancy next year”.

The reason “I don’t really like Bloggins” can be substituted with any of a number of reasons, it doesn’t have to be as nefarious as a personality conflict.  That said, if there is a policy that deals with whether a CM can promote to PML or not, that’s fine.  If it’s left up to the CM’s personal discretion, then I can see where there’d be an opportunity for suspicion.

Before anyone suggests that this scenario couldn’t possibly play out, bear in mind that one of our elements still requires that the member’s supervisor (or someone else from the CoC) must be present during the member’s personal interview with the CM.  No one-on-one interviews allowed.

 

[McG]

Topping the merit year after year doesn't necessarily mean you will get promoted.  Not certain for all trades and elements, but from my experience the merit only gets you to the selection board. 

This is wrong for all occupations.  The merit ranking is a product of the selection boards.  One can check their ranking through EMAA.  If you don't have results, it means that you were not ranked either because your PER scores were below the cutoff line or because you do not have enough time in rank.

 

[GnyHwy]

I think (and I may well stand to be corrected on this) what the OP was alluding to is this:

I knew I wasn't necessarily answering the OP's question.  My post was just an aside that came to mind, that kind of relates.  Also, it seems that the OP and other posters believe that the CM has actual power to promote or not promote.  I don't understand it that way at all.  The CM's opinion is certainly valued, but it is the COs and RSMs of units that decide who is promoted through the scoring at the selection board.  The CM is just the "manager" of all person's data.

This is wrong for all occupations.  The merit ranking is a product of the selection boards.  One can check their ranking through EMAA.  If you don't have results, it means that you were not ranked either because your PER scores were below the cutoff line or because you do not have enough time in rank.

Yes that would be the textbook answer. If only it were only that simple.  With promotions happening and persons improving themselves with the criteria I mention above, last year's selection board is only valid for the year that it was done.  If you don't get promoted that year, your going up again next year with a clean slate.  You don't get points for doing well at last year's selection.  This is where the misunderstanding lies with persons expecting to get promoted.  If a person is 3rd at the selection board and 2 get promoted, does that mean he is next to get promoted?  Not necessarily, because a lot can happen in a short period of time, especially since the points separating 1-15 might be very small.  In the event that things do change, and that person who was #3 has now fell to whatever, he is going to be upset, and rightfully so.  What that #3 person isn't recognizing is that they passed a bunch of persons to get to #3, and now they are being passed by others for the same type reasons.

Further, I would venture to guess, especially when only small numbers are being promoted, that there are many deserving soldiers that don't get promoted because they didn't quite make the cut.  They are sitting just below the cut (bottom end of MOIs), not ever making the selection, and therefore not getting recognized for all that extra criteria that they may have excelled in.

 

[garb811]

I knew I wasn't necessarily answering the OP's question.  My post was just an aside that came to mind, that kind of relates.  Also, it seems that the OP and other posters believe that the CM has actual power to promote or not promote.  I don't understand it that way at all.  The CM's opinion is certainly valued, but it is the COs and RSMs of units that decide who is promoted through the scoring at the selection board.  The CM is just the "manager" of all person's data.

For us purple trades at least, "the" selection board that matters is the national board(s) which sits in Ottawa end Sep - end Oct.  That is where the national merit list is decided and the promotions devolve from there via the CM.  After Cpl, the CO has no authority to appoint/promote independently and even though the CO nominally has the authority to decline to promote, this is almost unheard of once the message is cut.  This is because we compete against or peers Nationally, not simply Regimentally.

Although the CM doesn't personally have the authority to stop promoting to fill vacancies, there are a number of ways this can happen, one of them being the CM presenting a compelling argument to D Mil C as to why they should not continue further down the merit list, as happened with at least one trade this year.

 

[GnyHwy]

Not sure why you quoted me?  It seems you trying to re butt what I said, but all you did was reinforce what I said or misread what I said. This is what I said.

I knew I wasn't necessarily answering the OP's question.  My post was just an aside that came to mind, that kind of relates.  Also, it seems that the OP and other posters believe that the CM has actual power to promote or not promote.  I don't understand it that way at all.  The CM's opinion is certainly valued, but it is the COs and RSMs of units that decide who is promoted through the scoring at the selection board.  The CM is just the "manager" of all person's data.

What you said.

For us purple trades at least, "the" selection board that matters is the national board(s) which sits in Ottawa end Sep - end Oct.  That is where the national merit list is decided and the promotions devolve from there via the CM.  After Cpl, the CO has no authority to appoint/promote independently and even though the CO nominally has the authority to decline to promote, this is almost unheard of once the message is cut.  This is because we compete against or peers Nationally, not simply Regimentally.

Although the CM doesn't personally have the authority to stop promoting to fill vacancies, there are a number of ways this can happen, one of them being the CM presenting a compelling argument to D Mil C as to why they should not continue further down the merit list, as happened with at least one trade this year.

You mention a "national board".  Who do yo think is at that national board?  The COs and RSMs that I mentioned.

You state that the CO has no authority to promote beyond Cpl.  Where did I say that?  I said COs and RSMs (plural) decide who gets promoted, at the selection board.

You mention that the CM can make a compelling argument to D Mil C.  I hope your not suggesting that the CM makes this decision and argument alone.  He may be telling D Mil C what his trade should do, but it is the COs that make that decision.

Lastly, you mention promotions national vs regimental.  For the Arty and Engineers it is national, for the RCR, VP, and 22 I am not sure, but their regiments are large enough that it equals out anyway.  It may only be the Armd  that promote within a Bn sized unit, but I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong. 

The one big difference I could see between large (green) units and small (purple) units is that it is less likely for persons in purple trades to shuffle up and down after the selection.  But, this has nothing to do green or purple, it is pure math and the fact that there are less persons to make it happen.

 

[navymich]

You mention a "national board".  Who do yo think is at that national board?  The COs and RSMs that I mentioned.

This was the makeup for my trade's national board:

This year's PER merit board will be 15 - 19 Oct in Ottawa.  The board will consist of the following personnel:

President - LCol xxxxxxxx (AEC);
Member - LCdr xxxxxx (CMS) (non-affiliated member)
Member - CWO xxxxxxxxx (AC Op);
Member - CWO xxxxxxxx (AC Op);
Board Secretary - CWO xxxxxxxx (AC Op/MET Tech CM)

Yes, I can see how the 2x CWO could be RSMs.  But they certainly aren't all of them.  Plus, the non-affiliated member (ie, someone who is of a completely different trade and has no knowledge of the members by name) is there to provide non-biased opinions.  The CM is only there to provide the paperwork and take notes.  There is no CO at all.  There are national standards to follow as to the scoring.  Our CM provides the whole thing for us to see how the evaluation is done. 

Talking to a former CM, although scoring may vary between trades and elements, this is the process that is followed throughout all National boards.


edited to remove names of board members.  Although this info is available through the DWAN, I felt that it shouldn't be posted here.

 

[Ostrozac]

You mention a "national board".  Who do yo think is at that national board?  The COs and RSMs that I mentioned.

You state that the CO has no authority to promote beyond Cpl.  Where did I say that?  I said COs and RSMs (plural) decide who gets promoted, at the selection board.

The national boards held each fall for each occupation contain senior members of the MOSID (plus a few outsiders). For field artillerymen, for example, those board members could easily be the RSM's of the horse regiments and the arty school. For most occupations there will be no relation between the members normal unit RSM in garrison and the senior CWOs of the occupation. For instance, a horse artillery regiment also includes weapons techs, RMS clerks, and met techs. Field artillery CWO's will not be sitting on those national promotion boards.

Similarly, for officers, while infantry officers of a battalion of The RCR may be boarded nationally at a board that consists of infantry LCols that are also the members CO's -- the other officers of an infantry battalion --the QM, the Maint O, the Int O, the Sig O, the Padre -- will be boarded at national boards against other members of their own occupation by a board that will not include their own (RCR-badged) CO.