PRE DEPLOYMENT STRESS

[Britney Spears]

I question how much of the WWI/WWII research is applicable to modern warfare/combat. The demographics of the armies(volunteers vs conscripts), training methods, professionalization, support networks and resources availible to soldiers today are vastly different. The type of conflict is also very different. Is there any research on the mental health issues facing, say, 19th Century  British and French colonial armies? I don't know, but it seems to be that those(basically volunteer armies, often from lower class backgrounds, fighting a low tech enemy with ambivalent opinions on the home front) would be more applicable to our situation today than stats collected from Verdun or Stalingrad.

 

[KevinB]

Gunner98 - do you ever read my posts?

Where is the relevance????

He has not deployed previosuly.  He is a volunteer - we don't even know his trade.  I question using your 60yr old data as well.

1) We have come a long way in preparing soldier for combat
2) There is a Large support network - use it STFU  - I've seen the CF head shrinkers, I am not embarrased to say.  Don't run from your problems it just compounds them.
3) Lets take off the warm fuzzies and remember warfighting is our #1.

 

[SemperFidelis]

You know what KevinB...yeah in the military warfighting is #1 but you forget we're all human too.  Accept that and respect it...otherwise, what the fuck are you fighting for in the first place?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"but you forget we're all human too"

I think he has respected that.   He of all people knows that the solider (the person) is the army's greatest asset and should be treated as such.   However there comes a time to put up or shut up and get the job done.

"There is a Large support network"
he's been around the PTSD block so why don't you sit back and listen and maybe you'll learn something on the way.

Not to put words in your mouth KevinB.

 

[Barek]

Alright, I think we all need to calm down and try to answer SemperFidelis questions instead of raggin on the guy. The guy got scared or depressed. It happens to people. Not everyone is cut out for the job and also, if you've ever talked or read articles from veterans you'd realise taht alot of them got scared/depressed too. It's part of being a soldier. You deal with it and get on with life or you don't and you quit the military. But don't act like all you should ever do is fight fight fight. Being a soldier means being human too, if you can't remember what you are fighting for then you shouldn't be fighting. Think of this..."falling isn't failing unless you don't get up". Basically, we all have our weak times, either we let them take over us or we get past them. Welcome to life, but there is no need to bash a guy you don't know.

"All men are timid on entering any fight. Whether it is the first or the last fight, all of us are timid. Cowards are those who let their timidity get the better of their manhood."
- General George Patton Jr, "War as I knew it" 1947

So this guy freaks out and doesn't know where to turn. He makes a mistake, just like everybody else though more extreme and public, the question is...what does he do next? Give a guy the chance to prove he can overcome adversity before calling him a coward. I'll admit I wouldn't want to be in a foxhole with someone who is suicidal but then again, if he's shown that he has improved his character since then, it has only increased his character not lessened it. It is the response that I believe is most important. We all have shite to deal with in our lifes. How we responsed determines our character.Let the guy find help, which he is being in a physch ward. It does take someone of character to admit they need help. Though he didn't do it in the best way.

So lets try and give some helpful advice to Semper to help her help her friends. Advise like, just continue being a friend. Take 'em out for a beer and let him know that if he wants to talk you are there anytime. One of the best things you can do is to be there to listen and to give advice when they ask.

 

[SemperFidelis]

CFL...I guess you're right about sitting back and listening...I cant say I've been in war as a soldier , yet, but I have been in war as a civilian.  Sometimes that makes me think I know what am talking about...even tho it might not seem so from your or anyone elses point of view...how ever it is one thats been moulded by a been-there-done-that.  I may have been young, but the things you see make you grow up fast and you dont forget that shit too fast.  I guess sometimes it makes you passionate and oppinionated...

 

[Britney Spears]

For the children:

I believe, after some time in the army, that all of you will come understand our callous attitudes towards matters like this. How, upon hearing of this young man's unfortunate plight, our first thoughts are not "Poor dear,  get him some Hugh Grant movies and a bucket of pralines'n cream", but "Thank goodness his buddies don't have to deal with him when it starts raining lead". Ever since the beginning of time, fighting men and women survive and advance over fire swept ground because they fear dishonour in the eyes of their comrades more than they fear the enemy. People become soldiers when they finally figure out that the universe doesn't revolve around THEM, that their petty little anxieties (yes, that's what they are, and yes, we all have them.)  don't matter a lick when the bullets start flying because 7 other equally frightened kids  are counting on them to hold that little section of the line. If you break, your buddies are very likely to die.

No, it doesn't make much sense on paper, and it runs contrary to everything that our self-centered "me first"  society has taught you, but there you have it. With good training and leadership, most find out fairly early in the game whether they are up to it or not. Hopefully, unlike the young man in the OP,  you will too.

Like Kev says, "Big Boys' Rules"

 

[Gunner98]

Yes, KevinB, I've read your semi-literate posts (and your profile).  Let me quote you and respond

Gunner98 - do you ever read my posts?

Where is the relevance????  - We are from the same blood lines and the dataset is larger than we can expect to duplicate today.

He has not deployed previosuly.  He is a volunteer - we don't even know his trade.  I question using your 60yr old data as well. "It is not my data. I did not direct the response only toward your comments but to those saying my Grandpa...

1) We have come a long way in preparing soldier for combat.  What do you base this statement on?
2) There is a Large support network - use it STFU  - I've seen the CF head shrinkers, I am not embarrased to say.  Don't run from your problems it just compounds them. STFU and don't run -  Is this your statements  or the head shrinker's words?
3) Lets take off the warm fuzzies and remember warfighting is our #1.

I don't think our new Defence Policy statement says that Warfighting is our #1, I don't think it mentions warfighting at all.  - I think it states, "The ability to respond to the challenge of failed and failing states will serve as a benchmark for the Canadian Forces. While this focus will not see the Forces replicate every function of the world's premier militaries, the task of restoring order to war zones will require Canada to maintain armed forces with substantial capabilities. These same capabilities will also enable the Canadian Forces to respond to other international contingencies, providing insurance against unexpected developments in an ever-changing world.

Scared is one thing - I think a lot of us have been scared at times - but ACT.  Are you admitting you have been scared or just that nebulous some of "us."

If he has real problems - seek help, I made the call on the ATTENTION SEEKING based upon stats on male suicides - and the fact he was in the military.  You made the call based on your vast Infantry experience and used Cdn or US stats?"

So basing it on a cry for attention - he has two options - dealing with the issue - hence my recomendation of 'On Combat'  or continuing to ignore it / shirk it.  Personally I dont buy the BS "I did not know any one was selling BS."

The Army is a volunteer org - you take the Queen's Shilling (- in this case Congress's Dime) your bought and paid for.  Interesting...sometimes you get what you pay for in Cdn or US funds.

Spell Check is wonderful tool, try it next time!

 

[Barek]

For the children:

I believe, after some time in the army, that all of you will come understand our callous attitudes towards matters like this. How, upon hearing of this young man's unfortunate plight, our first thoughts are not "Poor dear,   get him some Hugh Grant movies and a bucket of pralines'n cream", but "Thank goodness his buddies don't have to deal with him when it starts raining lead". Ever since the beginning of time, fighting men and women survive and advance over fire swept ground because they fear dishonour in the eyes of their comrades more than they fear the enemy. People become soldiers when they finally figure out that the universe doesn't revolve around THEM, that their petty little anxieties (yes, that's what they are, and yes, we all have them.)   don't matter a lick when the bullets start flying because 7 other equally frightened kids   are counting on them to hold that little section of the line. If you break, your buddies are very likely to die.

No, it doesn't make much sense on paper, and it runs contrary to everything that our self-centered "me first"   society has taught you, but there you have it. With good training and leadership, most find out fairly early in the game whether they are up to it or not. Hopefully, unlike the young man in the OP,   you will too.

Like Kev says, "Big Boys' Rules"

I think i get what you are saying. I realise that, insofar as i can without having experienced it, in war there isn't time to coddle people. I get it, war is a shithole and everyone has to do their part, everyone has to work as part of the whole. But this guy hasn't deployed yet and prolly has just discovered he can't handle it. So maybe this just shows that we haven't come a long way in preparing a soldier for war. There are always gonna be people taht make it through training that can't handle combat. So, if he was in your squad and you knew him, wouldn't you at least have the honor to let him go with a little dignity and respect. No everyone is cut out for service, better he find out now then on the field when other peoples lives depend on him.

 

[TCBF]

The army - everyone's army - always gets blamed for everything.  Truth is, the military aspect of a person's life is not always the straw that broke the camel's back.  Today, we lose more good soldiers to bad (stupid, in some cases) marriages than we do to hostile acts.  What we have to handle is LIFE.  In uniform and out.  If the problem is ultimately civil in origin, it's solution must be a civil one.  If the problem is one of a maladaptation to the exigincies of the service, then losses must be cut.

I agree that people need help.  I also believe we can bankrupt the service by recruiting sub-standard character sets and then robbing our ops and training budget to treat problems created twenty years before a uniform was put on.

If the army did it - the army should fix it.  If not, welcome to the Canada Health Act.

Tom

 

[Britney Spears]

I think i get what you are saying. I realise that, insofar as i can without having experienced it, in war there isn't time to coddle people. I get it, war is a ******* and everyone has to do their part, everyone has to work as part of the whole. But this guy hasn't deployed yet and prolly has just discovered he can't handle it. So maybe this just shows that we haven't come a long way in preparing a soldier for war. There are always gonna be people taht make it through training that can't handle combat. So, if he was in your squad and you knew him, wouldn't you at least have the honor to let him go with a little dignity and respect. No everyone is cut out for service, better he find out now then on the field when other peoples lives depend on him.

I don't know the man and I don't know the circumstances, so that's all I can say about that. Casting stones, glass house, and all that jazz. I just hope that some of you might understand where our attitudes stem from, most civillians don't.

 

[KevinB]

Gunner 98.
Well I guess warm and fuzzy makes for more jobs for Health Care Administrators.  ;D

 

[paracowboy]

well, I'm just glad he snapped BEFORE he got in theatre and got good troops dead.

 

[Blakey]

well, I'm just glad he snapped BEFORE he got in theatre and got good troops dead.

Cant sleep, clown will eat me...

 

[Britney Spears]

Cant sleep, clown will eat me...

CRAP not again... hide him away in CQ before the CBC gets wind of it! 

 

[Spr.Earl]

Well I did think of it as most of have done and those who come after us will also,we would not be human if we did not have these thoughts, it's normal!
Just go, do your job as you have been trained too do and come home safe.

 

[Bartok5]

Cant sleep, clown will eat me...

Man, I HATE those clowns....  Worse than Al Quaeda & Taliban combined.  Seriously freaky stuff.....

Jeez - I hope we never have to fight the clowns.  Tiny little APCs disgorging literally hundreds of clown combattants.....  The clowns themselves ranging from super tall to super short, so that "centre of mass" no longer holds any meaning....  The entire concept is horrible!  HORRIBLE!!

I want no part of it.  The minute the clowns join the party I'm turning in my kit.  AQ and Taliban I can handle.  Angry clowns?  No frigging way - I'm outta here.  You can't fight an organization with that kind of universal public support.  Ain't gonna happen... 

 

[Gunner]

Jeez - I hope we never have to fight the clowns.  Tiny little APCs disgorging literally hundreds of clown combattants.....  The clowns themselves ranging from super tall to super short, so that "centre of mass" no longer holds any meaning....  The entire concept is horrible!  HORRIBLE!!

Careful there soldier, it could happen here!

 

[reccecrewman]

It's been said before but I'll say it again - If he's in a psych ward, thats the best place for him.  Let professionals do their job.  There's really only so much you can do (which ain't much in a case like this)

 

[Wolfe]

In the 1 place ARMY = COMABT AND WAR, personally for me i didn't join the army for some camping and shooting bullets in the air no i know that i could go to Afghanistan and let me tell i would love to go there i may sound crazy the reason is that well i love Canada but when you know somebody could come and blow his self up in the metro and kill kids and family's it makes me want to go there and seek vengeance to the terrorists. If i had a terrorist in front of me i would say to him : Look i don't give a crap what is your cause and what you are fighting for and i don't even want to know but if you come in my country to put terror i will come in your to kill the people that trained you. ABOUT the stress , i have a friend 45 years old, i speak with him every week end, he was a sniper in the Romanian special forces long time ago and he saw a lot of sh*t and i asked him how come you are still okay psychologically and he replied, i am a soldier i was trained for that i shut up and did the job. PERSONALLY i totally agree with Kevin. Yes we are human that is true be we can control our emotion if you apply for the army well you are supposed to know that you should go to war and manage it inside of you and when they ship you go out there shut up and do the dirty job THIS is the army sometimes its a dirty job and soldiers got to deal with it personally when a soldier is to emotional to my eyes he is not even close to be a soldier and should quite the army no in the first place he shouldn't never applied for the army.  For me , i serve my country and well i am crazy but i love action. If you don't understand me go read the book NO MEAN SOLDIER by Peter McAlesse.

Like Peter McAleesse says in his Book:

" This was the first time i had been in contact and killed anyone. I felt good, I felt hard. But the euphoria was nothing to do with ending another person's life. I felt good because i had not panicked, I had not let down my friends, I had reacted as a professional soldier trained by professional soldiers, and the excitement of the firefight was nothing short of fantastic. I've never taken drugs but I can't believe there is anything which can equal the thrill of battle. I loved it."