Posting Policy-Restricted (IR) & Prohibited moves [MERGED]

[CountDC]

On a bit of a tangent concerning the DCBA Aide Memoire, I have been reading alot of the grievances at this link:
http://www.cfgb-cgfc.gc.ca/english/CS.html

It seems that grievances were filed because the Aide Memoire was used as the reference to "clarify" the regulations. However, the grievance board has continually stated that it cannot take precedence over the regulation and granted the grievance. I was wondering if any word has filtered down to the RMS world about quoting it as gospel.

alot?  Only found seven concerning IR and 2 additional ones under SE with only 3 mentioning the Aide. You also failed to mention that none of them have made it through the CDS for approval yet.  No it has not filtered down to the RMS world not to use it as so far the recommendations are just that - recommendations. By the way, the board does not grant grievances - they make recommendations to the CDS who may approve, reject or partially approve the recommendations.

That being said - I agree with the board recommendations and hope the CDS does.

 

[PMedMoe]

Actually, the Aide Memoire states, right at the beginning:

This document amplifies the CBIs and QR&Os referenced within.  In the event of any conflict between this Aide-Memoire and the CBIs or QR&Os, the latter authorities prevail.  However, amended CBIs on CTA, FCA and TR have been submitted to TBS, and have been approved in principal.  Therefore, the policy in this Aide Memoire concerning these CBIs is to be considered interim direction until the CBIs are published.

Of course, the last sentence is probably why I can't find an actual directive stating members on IR are only entitled to a one bedroom apartment (besides the Aide Memoire, that is).  :

 

[dapaterson]

Look at the DND Living Accommodation Instruction on the internet at: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pub/lai-il/index-eng.asp

It refers to DND owned accommodation, but one can extrapolate.

So, under section 4.1, it states that a one person household should have 650-1200 square feet of living space, 1 or 2 bedrooms, and 1 bathroom.  It does state as a note to the table that recommended standards are not to be interpreted as entitlements.

As DND holds no single quarters in the NCR, one must therefore seek equivalent accommodation on the economy.

Note that the "One bedroom, sitting room and kitchenette" standard (per the Aide Memoire) is for Private Accommodation only - not for Commercial Accommodation.  So unless you're in a basement apartment of someone's house, or something else that constitutes Private Accommodation, they are mis-interpreting and mis-applying the policy.  The definition of Commerical Accommodation states that a one bedroom hotel apartment would be considered as that type, but that is not an exclusive definition - it states nowhere that a two bedroom is not.


Frankly, if they have time to pick incorrect nits it suggests that they have too much staff without enough work to do.

5. Commercial Accommodation
Accommodation that is available at weekly or monthly rates that provide sleeping, meal preparation, and refrigeration facilities but does not constitute the member’s principal residence. One bedroom hotel type furnished apartment would fall under this category.

28. Private Accommodation
Private accommodation not owned or rented by the member or by anyone that the member would normally reside with. Rooming houses, boarding arrangements would fall under this category.
29. Private Rented Accommodation
Furnished or unfurnished private one bedroom apartment or dwelling that is not owned by the member or by anyone that the member would normally reside with.

 

[PMedMoe]

Thanks for the links, dapaterson.  Yes, I've looked through a lot of them.  I also found one that stated a Type VI accommodation.  This compares the accommodation to single quarters (military) which says one bedroom, private bath with kitchenette.  But I find it a little extreme to try and compare a civilian apartment to single quarters which would be more akin to a hotel room with a kitchenette, instead of a full apartment. 

I have an en suite washer and dryer, too, which is not found in single quarters.  Is this not allowed either?  Not like I want to spend my time "guarding" my laundry for fear of theft.  I agree with the nitpicking thing, too.  Really, if my rent does not exceed the allotted amount, I don't see what the issue is.  After all, I am the one being inconvenienced, not the military.  Do I not have the right to be (relatively) comfortable in the place I spend 85-90% of my time in?  As I stated earlier, it's very difficult to find a furnished one bedroom in Ottawa, with the exception being right downtown.

Not to mention, here's what my IR brief stated:

Accommodations in the National Capital Region:

- CFAO 209-3
-    CANFORGEN 080/99, 141600Z SEP 99
- QR&O 209.997
- Lodging expense while on separation expense (Ottawa), 7209-997(DCBA 3-4) dated 19 Feb 01*

- A member may stay in any hotel, apartment or other non-commercial accommodation in the National Capital Region.

- DND will reimburse costs up to the maximum amounts indicated below.

....

Apartment:

- Maximum claimable:  $1600.00 per month including tax
- Residential parking not to exceed $100.00 per month.  Furthermore, mbr must provide memo stating reason why he/she needs POMV since public transportation is readily available
- Utilities and rental of essential furniture may be included within the maximum entitlement of $1600.00 per month
- Member must supply lease/rental agreement and receipts paid in full
- A member choosing to enter into a lease agreement is advised that DND will reimburse, at most, a 30 day penalty as a result of early termination of a lease.  To that end, it is recommended that the member negotiate the lease to include a clause that allows them to terminate the lease, penalty free, with 30 days notice.

Nope, don't see anything about a one bedroom in there.

*This ref has since been removed or changed. 

 

[CountDC]

Got to say this is the first I have heard of the 1 bedroom rule.  When I did some of the claims in Halifax I never checked whether it was a one bedroom - as long as it had a kitchen area included and did not exceed the maximum claimable I didn't care how many bedrooms it had. Maybe the one bedroom rule is something that someone introduced to keep people on IR from getting shared accomodations with someone else to split the rent while they claim the full amount?

 

[PMedMoe]

Maybe the one bedroom rule is something that someone introduced to keep people on IR from getting shared accomodations with someone else to split the rent while they claim the full amount?

Maybe.  I have no idea.  Ottawa has a lot of people on IR (in the range of 500-700 according to the email).  They can come see my apartment, the second bedroom is so full of kit, there couldn't possibly be another person living there.  Being in a high-readiness position requires me to have all my deployment kit here, where the hell else would I store it?  When I replied to the email asking how many bedrooms I had, I was tempted to say "one bedroom and one den".  >

 

[dapaterson]

No, one bedroom and a storage room.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

"one bedroom and one den". 

If one uses a bedroom as a den then it becomes a den,....no?

Tell them they must get past such stereotypical thinking....offer some SHARP handouts.
It's not to be called a "2 bedroom apartment", you will use the term, " it's an accommodating area that may have bedroom-like tendencies."

 

[armyvern]

Maybe.  I have no idea.  Ottawa has a lot of people on IR (in the range of 500-700 according to the email).  They can come see my apartment, the second bedroom is so full of kit, there couldn't possibly be another person living there.  Being in a high-readiness position requires me to have all my deployment kit here, where the hell else would I store it?  When I replied to the email asking how many bedrooms I had, I was tempted to say "one bedroom and one den".  >

I wonder if Ottawa is preparing "to use" it's IR status personnel to set some new kind of standard for the nation.

If Ottawa manages to pull this one off, what the heck are they going to tell IR pers who get posted in and there's NOt a single 1 bedroom apartment left in the town "too bad, you're on your own then?"

How could Ottawa implement such a thing when there are IR locations ... where "1 bedroom" apartments don't exist to rent (I was previously IR at one such location)? But houses existed to rent. The smallest apartments were 2 bedrooms. There were no singles quarters and no PMQs.

They've got IR guys here who "rent" PMQs ... and live in them alone. Is Ottawa suggesting that those pers not be covered because their PMQs are 3 bedrooms? Or are they going to "deduct percentages" from the IR entitlement for the "extra bedrooms" that sit empty each month through no fault of the IR person?

What about the IR guy who, by the books, "is entitled to rent a 1 bedroom", but can only find a bachelor apartment or a hotel room at his location to rent? Is Ottawa going to fork him over "extra money" above the rental cost because he's being forced to live in LESS space than he is entitled to by their policy? Somehow, me thinks NOT.

Someone really needs to put the cap back on the airplane glue. It's really starting to become odiferous in the search to shaft people.

 

[PMedMoe]

If one uses a bedroom as a den then it becomes a den,....no?

Tell them they must get past such stereotypical thinking....offer some SHARP handouts.
It's not to be called a "2 bedroom apartment", you will use the term, " it's an accommodating area that may have bedroom-like tendencies."

Maybe I'll try that one! 

Vern, I was thinking they were sniffing the white board markers too much.  ;D

 

[opcougar]

Thanks for this, really appreciate it. It's this kind of first hand experience that I was after, and you managed to point me in the right direction without being snub about it.

I am actually in Ottawa this week on my unaccompanied HHT, and I do plan to spend my weekends hunting for houses for the family for a summer move.

Thx

For the record, I did exactly what opcougar is planning to do - came first on IR until kids finished school, then moved in the summer.  I found a place by phoning around using the list from the CFSU(O) IR desk.  I then made all the arrangements via e-mail/fax and secured the place sight unseen.  Since it was only for three months, I was prepared to accept the risk of ending up in a dive (I didn't).  I spent my weekends on IR checking out the housing market and when I felt I had a good short list and the market was right, I called my wife and had her come on the HHT.  I was working in the same basic timeframe (arrived in Ottawa in late March - HHT end of April -moved in early July).

You won't be able to stay in a hotel for any length of time.  You are only allowed seven days to find a place with cooking facilities.  After that, your meal allowance goes WAY down.  You need to find a furnished apartment as soon as possible.  Most of them seem to be downtown, but the bus service in Ottawa is not horrific (other than surly drivers who crank up the heat when everybody is wearing winter coats and who think they're at LeMans).

I stayed at the Horizon Towers (http://www.horizontowers.ca/).  There is a minimum three month lease period, but that worked out OK for me.  They charge the CF rate for the room and for parking.  It's conveniently located downtown if you're interested in entertaining yourself.  The best part I found was that the rent included cable and telephone.  Other places I looked at charged the CF rate, but cable and telephone were extra.  It also has a pool.

Good luck

 

[armyvern]

Thanks for this, really appreciate it. It's this kind of first hand experience that I was after, and you managed to point me in the right direction without being snub about it.

Oh for fucks sakes.  :

Moe:

Thank you very much for all your excellent links and pointers in this thread!! You see, I too will be posted to Ottawa after my course ... IR.

Your links have given me the capability to see what's out there in the way of accomodation and to "research" the areas of the town myself to see what each has to offer that I (vice you) am interested in. I certainly don't expect "you" to "know" what does or does not appeal to me or my family ... but you have given me the means and the links to determine that for myself.

No high-priced babysitting of me required. Beers for you and for ALL your assistance ... on me!!

 

[PMedMoe]

No problem, Vern.  Anytime.  Looking forward to the beers.  :cheers:

 

[captloadie]

From what I have heard, and yes this is only rumour, but the one bedroom interpretation was trying to be implemented to cut down on fraud. It has been said (rumour once again), that some members on IR have been renting homes and subletting rooms out. Yes it is fraud, and yes it is dishonest, but it was apparently happening. In true military fashion, instead of dealing with the few troublemakers, they are applying the broad brush approach and restricting everyone to limit this potential to beat the system.

 

[PMedMoe]

That's all good and fine.  My question is, if we have to move, who is going to do it and/or pay for it?  I can tell you, I have a crapload of kit and personal items that I have brought from home (mostly military kit) and purchased* since I came here which would require several carloads to move.  Do we get time off to do this?  Will they give us the advance for first/last month rent again?

It would probably be easier just to "grandfather" those of us already in situ but I can see that being a problem too.

*Furnished apartment yes, but still needed some items.

 

[armyvern]

It would probably be easier just to "grandfather" those of us already in situ but I can see that being a problem too.

Absolutely. What the hell are they going to do for an IR pers where "sorry, no one bedrooms are available?" Etc etc - tell them too bad? Sorry if you can only get a two bedroom for under your 1600 buck ceiling, but that's your problem - not ours?

If they catch guys committing fraud - it's really quite simple - CHARGE THEIR asses (so what if it takes a general to do it) rather than create massive logistical nightmares for the rest of us (ie the 99.9999%) who play by the rules.

Unless, of course, the system wants to "start arranging to book blocks of single bedrroms themselves for pers who will be coming in IR". But, I've got 1 freaking week ... (and the last place I was posted to IR - I didn't even get that HHT week) and if all I can find is a 2 bedroom ... that's all I can find and if it's under the limit ... it's under the limit.

For crying out loud. If they want to micro-manage that badly ... then they can find me the damn place to live too - just to ensure that it suits them. Save me the heartache and the hundreds of others the heartache too just because they don't want to deal with the .01% who abuse the system.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Maybe it's just the Union guy in me but when they approved, and started paying, the apartment you currently live then they set your precedent and, to be blunt, you should tell somebody to hoop their forehead.

 

[armyvern]

Maybe it's just the Union guy in me but when they approved, and started paying, the apartment you currently live then they set your precedent and, to be blunt, you should tell somebody to hoop their forehead.

Oh, I'd agree with you on that; you have to give them a copy of your lease in order to get your IR claim moving. Thus, grandfathering pers currently IR would seem to be the way to go.

That still leaves future pers who can't find a one bedroom, but who can find a two bedroom etc under the limit. The powers that be are going to have to fugure out what to do in those sits BEFORE anything "further limiting" comes down as official ... but something sends my spidey senses on the fritz about that occuring because that would just make common sense.

 

[opcougar]

Thx 2 everyone that contributed to this thread, really appreciate! I arrived in Ottawa on Sunday on IR, went to NDHQ to sort out the claim, the cpl I dealt with was great, opened a file for me, too all the paper work I had on me, and managed to get me a cheque for the 1 month $1700 I paid to my place of residence a day before.

He provided me with the form needed for the monthly submission and walked me through the whole process of sending in the completed form with the receipt, in order to get refunded.

Whilst there, I also popped in to see Brookfield to tell them that am now in Ottawa and to see if my file has been sent there yet? It wasn't there yet, so I'll wait out.

Oh...I was in cadpat, and yes I saw the sign hanging there saying no jeans and denim

 

[Proud Sup Tech]

Welcome to Ottawa.  I have been living here quite a few times on my rubber band postings (here out west etc.)  I think that you may like the South Ottawa area, getting to StarTop is pretty easy (I bus it from Uplands) and there are lots of amenities in this area of town.  If you want some more info about the area (I have been here for quite a bit) just send me a personal msg and we could meet up to talk about the area.