Posting Policy-Out of Canada (OUTCAN) [MERGED]

[little jim]

For the zipcode, we were told use the numbers in your postal code, in order and add 00 at the end.

An interesting note is that my wife's car needed repairs and had them done at the Volvo dealership.  I tried to pay with my Canadian Aeroplan VISA.  The guy swiped the card and the reader gave the message to "insert chip card."  Problem was that being in the Southern USA there was no chip reader on the machine and they couldnt find away around it.  Out came my US State Farm VISA.

Also liked not having to deal with exchange rates on a daily basis and service frees.  But YMMV.

 

[Rifleman62]

For the zipcode, we were told use the numbers in your postal code, in order and add 00 at the end.

Note my postal code is V4T 2X1 thus 42100.

You may be interested in Amazon.ca Visa (or the Marriott)card.

https://www.chase.com/online/canada/canada-home-en.htm

We will bill you in Canadian Currency if you use your account to make a transaction in foreign currency.  We will convert it into Canadian currency at the exchange rate set by Visa International in effect at the time we post the transaction to your account.  This exchange rate may be different from the rate in effect on the transaction date. 

We will not charge you any additional foreign currency conversion charge

The lack of foreign exchange fees is like getting 2.5% cash back instantly, when compared to using most other credit cards. Plus cash back etc.

You also save when using this card in a foreign country rather than converting Cdn funds at the bank to pay off e.g. a USD credit card. **

** Clarification.

 

[newwifey]

I'm not biased in this suggestion as I am an employee, but Bank of Montreal has quite a lot of cross-border functionality now.  A lot of the fees are already included with existing plans for banking and transfer of funds, there is also a US Mastercard.

If you are a customer now (or a customer in the future) ask for more information next time you are at your Branch. 

It's worth checking into if it will make things easier.

 

[Pusser]

I am currently posted in the UK, which has some challenges.  Despite the fact that Canada has never waged war against the UK, Canadians are not officially treated as well as European Union citizens (most of whose countries have at some point or another HAVE waged war against the UK or its constituent countries).  For the most part, this means that we have to stand in the slow-moving line at the airport.  Unofficially, they like us better than even the Americans.  Nevertheless, there are challenges to living in the UK:

1)  Banking rules have been tightened considerably in the last decade.  When I was posted over here 18 years ago, getting a bank account was easy with a letter of introduction from my unit and the bank manager was tripping over himself trying to give me money (e.g. credit card,  setting up an overdraft, etc).  I had all of these things before I left the branch that first day.  This time around, getting a bank account wasn't too difficult, but identification requirements were more stringent and I had to prove I had an address.  Luckily, CFSU(E) Det UK has fostered a relationship with a local bank, so that went reasonably smoothly.  However, by this point I no longer had a UK credit rating whatsoever ( I hadn't maintained my old account) and so getting a credit card or an overdraft was impossible in the beginning.  However, within a few months, the bank starts acting like a bank and tried to get more money out of me, so applications for credit cards start to arrive in the mail.  After about six months, I was able to get a credit card with a ridiculously low limit.  For the most part, I don't really need a credit card over here, but it's a good idea to have one for the same reasons it's a good idea to have one at home (hotels, rental cars, etc).  Having a local one saves on transaction fees and getting hammered on exchange rates.  After about a year, I was able to get an overdraft on my bank account.  We were also able to get an American Express card fairly quickly through Costco (at the time Costco and Amex had a relationship).  As an aside, if you're a Costco member, make sure your membership is up to date before you leave Canada and ideally have it set up so you can renew online.  Our Canadian Costco membership is good here, but it's considerably cheaper to pay for it in Canada.

2) You want to maintain Canadian credit cards and bank accounts.  For one thing, buying online from Canadian sources can often be cheaper (items sent to your Canadian address in Belleville so save on shipping costs).  Also, when I travel, Canada pays my TD costs, but Claims-X can only reimburse you through a Canadian bank account.  Therefore, I pay for hotels and get cash advances on my Canadian credit cards (transaction fees are claimable).  Once I'm reimbursed through my Canadian bank account, I can pay off the Canadian credit card.  Apparently, if you have accounts with HSBC, it's reasonably easy to open an HSBC account here and get a UK HSBC credit card.  I've been led to believe that HSBC is much more international than other banks they will take your Canadian holdings into account.

3)  Cell (mobile) phone rates in the UK are cheaper, but when I tried to get three mobile phones for my family, I was told I was only allowed to have two - period.  They don't really have family plans here.  Every phone is a separate contract - and one household can only have two.  Even buying a phone outright or paying a large deposit would get me nothing.  This was with several providers.  After about six months of paying for my two phones in full and on time everytime (kind of hard not to when they also required me to set up a direct debit), my provider granted me a special dispensation and allowed me a third phone (in the meantime, I was able to give my son a pay as you go phone).

4)  The default answer to everything in the UK is always negative.  If you are late on a payment, it is because you are an irresponsible deadbeat, not because your payment got lost in the mail.  Utilities are billed quarterly here, so the bills are quite high (my last gas/electric bill was £1300), yet they expect payment within two weeks of them sending the bill.  I was one day late with one payment and the gas/electric company sent me a nastygram threatening to either cut me off or install a pay-as-you-go meter (a box in your house that you literally have feed money in order to turn the lights on).  Amex UK lost a payment on me and instantly cut my overall credit and daily withdrawal, as well as levying an immediate £25 fine.  I then had to prove that I had in fact paid on time to get these things reversed.  In neither case was there a line in the letters thanking me in case the payment had already been made by the time I received the letter.

5)  Importing my Canadian vehicle wasn't too bad once things got sent to the correct desk.  There is one central vehicle registration agency for all of the UK and only one office (everything is done by mail - you don't actually have to go to the office to register).  Being a large bureacracy though, the left hand doesn't always know what the right hand is doing.  Despite my package being addressed to "Special Registrations," it ended up in the regular section and so my registration was rejected because I hadn't included the correct forms or payment (visiting forces are exempt from the form in question and registration is free for the first year).  Calling them did not initially help as the first person I talked to was absolutely positive that there were no special procedures for foreign military personnel.  Yes there are and when I finally managed to talk to someone who knew better, things got worked out.  Having said all of this, my experience was nothing as bad as some of the stories above about registering in the US.

6)  I don't require a National Insurance Number and this has not been an issue.  I believe it is treated similarly to a Canadian SIN and so legally cannot be used as an identifier except for tax/employment purposes.  In order for my wife to work on the economy, she requires one.  Registering for the National Health Service for me and my family (which we're all allowed to use) was simply a matter of filling out the appropriate forms (and proving your address).

7)  Military discounts are not as prevalent as in the US, but they do exist.  One of the best deals going is an HM Forces Rail Card, which provides significant discounts on all train travel in the UK (including London Underground and buses).  Some business offer discounts as well, but sometimes you have to be careful.  There was a recent incident where a soldier was harrassed at a chain restaurant.  The restaurant does in fact offer a military discount, but identifying himself as a soldier in that particular neighbourhood was not a good idea.  There are parts of London where being military is a bad idea.

8)  Revenue Canada has just clarified that spouses accompanying CAF members serving overseas are also "Deemed Residents" of Canada, regardless of whether they themselves still have ties to Canada.  In the past, the member was always a Deemed Resident, but the spouse generally had to maintain some connection (e.g. own property).  Being a Deemed Resident makes tax issues simpler (for the most part), but our case, my wife has to declare her UK income on her Canadian tax return.  All of the UK taxes she pays are treated as a tax credit so, she doesn't pay any taxes twice, but she still needs to report it.

9)  My most frustrating issues have been in dealing with CAF administration.  I decided not to sell my house in Canada because to do so would have meant a mortgage termination fee of around $30K, which was not reimbursible.  I gather that some banks are now willing to waive these fees for CAF members posted overseas, but that certainly was not the case when I left Canada.  I took the Real Estate Incentive (REI) instead and now regret it.  The Department has saved approximately $25K in real estate fees, but only gave me a fully taxable $12K in return.  Furthermore, DCBA considers "real estate fees, legal fees and other related disposal costs" to much more encompassing than I think is reasonable and in waiving those (which is part of receiving REI), I have been denied a host of other benfits.  Being an absentee landlord has also been a pain in the butt.

That's about all I can think of at the moment.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Necropost.  I am posted to the USA on the ATL in Dec 15.  I am facing the prospect of not being able to sell my house because of timing/market.  I know CFIRP covers 6 months from core and anything beyond that from the custom envelopes for TDRA and I know I can request a waiver for having to pay rent share for 9 months starting when I get my posting message.  Couple questions:

1- Can TDRA and waiver for rent share be concurrent?
2- What can I expect having to pay out of pocket for living in the States (including any allowances I may get, like FSP and any share I may have to pay out).

Family of 4, pay level 16, posted to NAS Patuxent River, MD.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Is there no hope of renting out your house whilst in the US?  That is what I did the first time I was posted on ATL to Washington - I find myself here again after four years in Edmonton in a PMQ, and the house is in Ottawa is still rented out...

 

[Scoobs]

Pusser stated:

"8)  Revenue Canada has just clarified that spouses accompanying CAF members serving overseas are also "Deemed Residents" of Canada, regardless of whether they themselves still have ties to Canada.  In the past, the member was always a Deemed Resident, but the spouse generally had to maintain some connection (e.g. own property).  Being a Deemed Resident makes tax issues simpler (for the most part), but our case, my wife has to declare her UK income on her Canadian tax return.  All of the UK taxes she pays are treated as a tax credit so, she doesn't pay any taxes twice, but she still needs to report it."

CRA has in fact clarified that the spouses accompanying CAF members are "factual residents" and CAF mbrs are "deemed residents".  It seems silly that we would be two different classifications, but we are.  What it means is that the spouse pays Federal and Provincial taxes (from the last province that he/she lived in).  The CAF member, being "deemed", pays Federal tax and a federal surtax.  Deemed residents do not pay provincial taxes.  This is in the sheet that was provided by the MFRC in Rome, NY and I confirmed it when I phoned the CRA International Tax Office (there used to be a direct number to them, but not anymore.  You have to call the same line as everyone else and then ask to be transferred to the International Tax Office).

 

[Scoobs]

Necropost.  I am posted to the USA on the ATL in Dec 15.  I am facing the prospect of not being able to sell my house because of timing/market.  I know CFIRP covers 6 months from core and anything beyond that from the custom envelopes for TDRA and I know I can request a waiver for having to pay rent share for 9 months starting when I get my posting message.  Couple questions:

1- Can TDRA and waiver for rent share be concurrent?
2- What can I expect having to pay out of pocket for living in the States (including any allowances I may get, like FSP and any share I may have to pay out).

Family of 4, pay level 16, posted to NAS Patuxent River, MD.

1. I feel for you about the house.  I quite literally sold my house one week prior to the moving company coming and fortunately didn't have to use TDRA or rent waiver.  I was in the financial situation where I could still pay the last month of my mortgage and I had a neighbour keep an eye on the empty house until it changed hands.  You should have already paid for your first month's rent through money provided by CDLS(W) when you went on your HHT.  You don't have to pay this money back.

2.  I don't think that there are issues for getting TDRA and rent waiver at the same time, but I am not the authority on that.  I would verify with both Brookfield (as they do TDRA) and CDLS(Washington) as they do waiver for rent share.  Do you have a point of contact at CDLS(W)?  If not, PM me and I'll provide it to you.  The Sgt that takes care of rent issues is on leave this week though.  Trust me, CDLS(W) has heard about a lot of problems.  It is good that you're going to be in Maryland as sometimes I've had issues getting a hold of pers at CDLS(W).  You can just drive in and talk to them if they are non-responsive.  Plus, the embassy has a duty free store in the basement where you can get things like ketchup chips (they don't have them in the US) and Cdn beer that isn't sold down here (they do have some and it is cheaper here, but still brewed in Canada.  You figure that one out!).

3. You can expect to pay everything out of pocket, but you do receive the following:

a. rent money based on your approved lease (CDLS(W) is the approval authority; read the docs they send you)  What you get approved for depends on your rank and your family size.  Contact CDLS(W) for specifics.  This money gets deposited into your US bank account monthly by CDLS(W);
b. monthly utility amount based on your best forecast.  Trust me, this is hard to do at the beginning as the fees in the States are different than Canada.  Expect utilities to cost less.  Utilities include garbage (yes, garbage), electricity, gas, water, sewer, and others dependent on your personal situation (pest control, etc.).  At the end of each year you will do a utility reconciliation in order to see if you were underpaid or overpaid.  If in doubt, I recommend going slightly higher than what you think your costs will be, but be careful not to go too high as you may have to pay the money back.  I went a little too high and am most likely looking at needing to pay back approx $500 USD.  This money also gets deposited on a monthly basis into your US bank account by CDLS(W);
c. Post living allowance.  Gets put on your monthly pay;
d. Foreign service premium.  The thing that sucks about this is that any overseas' tours do NOT count towards increasing this type of FSP.  Gets put on your monthly pay;
e. Post specific allowance.  I believe that this one is dependent on where you live and not all mbrs get it.  I think that this is the one that we get to "try" to make up for the significant hit we are taking on the exchange rate.  Trust me, it's not enough, especially with the Cdn dollar free falling over the last week.  You'll start watching it more often now.  This gets put on your monthly pay.

I'm not sure if c to e are all rank dependent, but I believe that some are.

However, you will also be deducted the following each month off your pay:

a. utility share.  This is based on what you pay (rank dependent) for a PMQ in Ottawa (near the airport); and
b. rent share.  This is based on what you pay (rank dependent) for a PMQ in Ottawa (near the airport).

The net is a benefit financially for you when factoring in the benefits.  You pay your landlord directly and pay your bills directly as well.  That's why money is put into your account each month. 

Like I said, get ready for a shock with the exchange rate.  All financial gurus think that are dollar is still going to significantly drop.  However, the overall cost of living is cheaper down here (food, gas, etc).

 

[Pusser]

Pusser stated:

"8)  Revenue Canada has just clarified that spouses accompanying CAF members serving overseas are also "Deemed Residents" of Canada, regardless of whether they themselves still have ties to Canada.  In the past, the member was always a Deemed Resident, but the spouse generally had to maintain some connection (e.g. own property).  Being a Deemed Resident makes tax issues simpler (for the most part), but our case, my wife has to declare her UK income on her Canadian tax return.  All of the UK taxes she pays are treated as a tax credit so, she doesn't pay any taxes twice, but she still needs to report it."

CRA has in fact clarified that the spouses accompanying CAF members are "factual residents" and CAF mbrs are "deemed residents".  It seems silly that we would be two different classifications, but we are.  What it means is that the spouse pays Federal and Provincial taxes (from the last province that he/she lived in).  The CAF member, being "deemed", pays Federal tax and a federal surtax.  Deemed residents do not pay provincial taxes.  This is in the sheet that was provided by the MFRC in Rome, NY and I confirmed it when I phoned the CRA International Tax Office (there used to be a direct number to them, but not anymore.  You have to call the same line as everyone else and then ask to be transferred to the International Tax Office).

To be honest, I didn't go into too much detail when reading the latest CRA bulletin that clarified this, so I don't know for sure.  Still, it seems odd too me that someone can be a factual resident if they are not living in Canada.  In our case it really makes no difference because my wife and I still have a primary residence in Canada (our house) and that is sufficient to keep her classified as a "deemed resident."  As for paying provincial taxes versus a federal surtax, the federal surtax in this case is an aggragate of all the provincial taxes so the difference isn't significant.

We do utilities differently in the UK.  Both Rent Share and Utility Share are deducted off my pay every month, but only my rent money is deposited to my bank account.  For utility bills, I submit claims for reimbursement as I receive them.  That way the reconciliation is immediate and I don't have to pay anything back at the end.  The downside is that UK utility bills can be horrendous.  My last electric/gas bill was around £1300!  They only bill you quarterly, but still!

In my case, we rented out our house in Canada and claimed REI.  According to DCBA, claiming REI immediately disqualifies entitlement to anything else associated with your house, despite the IRP Manual clearing stating that the only thing you waive is entitlement to real estate fees, legal fees and other related disposal costs.  As a result, I have been denied a Waiver of Rent Share (took a few months to rent out my house), but I'm still working on that one.  I'm not sure how TDRA works into this.

On the plus side, some banks seem to be now taking pity on CF members posted OUTCAN and are sometimes waiving mortgage discharge fees.  Make sure you ask!  The main reason I'm renting out my house in Canada now is because I was looking at about $25K in mortgage penalties, which are not reimbursable in any way by the CF.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Is there no hope of renting out your house whilst in the US?  That is what I did the first time I was posted on ATL to Washington - I find myself here again after four years in Edmonton in a PMQ, and the house is in Ottawa is still rented out...

I guess there is always hope (and I definitely keep this option open), but the house rental market in Bagotville is severely limited and often only for Foreign Exchange Officers. 

I guess my real concern is my ability to continue paying for a house in Canada and living in the USA once TDRA money dries up.

 

[Scoobs]

Pusser,

you are correct that each situation is different.  It is true that maintaining a primary residence does affect the tax status.  Mortgage discharge fees are dependent on the bank.  Some will charge you the higher amount, some the lesser amounts, and some none at all.  It tried to get my bank to waive the fees, but they refused to do so and I had to pay the lesser amount, approx $1500 Cdn, and it is true that IRP no longer pays this (they used to, but it was changed in 2013).  I firmly believe that PWGSC made this change arbitrarily without thinking of people like us, i.e. posted OUTCAN.  IRP will not pay the fees, etc. to buy a house in the States, so by default we MUST rent.  Thus, we cannot port a mortgage to the States (I have ALWAYS had a portable mortgage), but the idiots refuse to reimburse us.    The only good thing is that this can be claimed on taxes as a cost of moving.

SupersonicMax,

I don't believe that TDRA lasts the entire time you are posted OUTCAN.  Last time I checked it was only for 6 months.  If you can't sell, I really recommend renting.  Also, I had to sell my house below what I paid for, but as long as it is within a certain percentage, IRP reimburses you.  I was reimbursed approximately 6 to 8 thousand.  However, all the things that I did to the house didn't pay off, i.e. I didn't make any money on the deal.
Also, if you need it, you can get a really low interest loan from the military and it is processed via CDLS(W).  I don't know much more than that as I didn't need to take it.  Some people do as the initial costs in the States can be high if you don't have some money already in the bank and a higher credit limit US based credit card.

 

[Pusser]

As a general rule, I would say that becoming destitute on an OUTCAN posting should be a minimal concern.  The allowances and other benefits you draw are actually quite generous (in my opinion) and most are tax free.  Add to this that your dependants are normally permitted to work in the foreign country, there is potential to actually do quite well, especially if your spouse has a marketable skill* that is in demand.  There are also usually some local tax benefits that may be available (e.g. in the UK, we are refunded all the VAT and other taxes on durable goods and auto fuel).  Depending on where and how long your posting is, you may be entitled to Vacation Travel Allowance (VTA), which is a nice chunk of change.  A Posting Loan is the closest thing to free money you'll ever see.  Even if you don't think you'll need one, look into it.  Ideally, it will be paid off by the end of the posting and you may not even notice it.  If you want to buy a car** on OUTCAN, this is usually the best way to do it because securing a car loan in a foreign country is near impossible.

*If your spouse is in a field that requires certification (e.g. medical) then start researching the requirements NOW.  It took about six months for my wife to get licenced in the UK.  For the most part, it was simply a paper tiger, but there were still some hoops to jump through.  She also had to get a National Insurance Number.  Note also that all of this may have tax implications in both Canada and the other country - not necessarily bad, but you do need to be aware and follow the rules.

**Buying a car in a foreign country with the idea of bringing it back to Canada requires a LOT of careful administration.  DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!  As I understand it, the car would essentially have to be manufactured to Canadian standards, or be over a certain age.  Otherwise, you could end up with an expensive paperweight.  You apparently can't even modify it after you return home.  I found it easier to bring my Canadian car to the UK and I will take it home again when I leave (actually HM Customs insists on that part).

 

[SupersonicMax]

Thanks for the replies!  It puts my mind at ease.  My posting is not till December but I have to go down there early (4 Sep till End Nov) to do conversion training...  I am trying to get as much done as possible before I leave.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Thanks all for the advices.  It turns out it was moot as my house sold within 3 weeks. 

Just coming back from HHT:  It is incredible the amount of money they give you while OUTCAN... No kidding people don't want to come back.

 

[dimsum]

Thanks all for the advices.  It turns out it was moot as my house sold within 3 weeks. 

Just coming back from HHT:  It is incredible the amount of money they give you while OUTCAN... No kidding people don't want to come back.

Yeah, it's a bit of a shock coming back to "normal" pay.  :-\ 

I actually was happy to come back, and that was from a desirable OUTCAN.  If nothing else, the time there lets you realize the the CAF isn't alone in having lack of institutional common sense (amongst other things).  I loved my posting, but when it was time to go, they weren't dragging me away kicking and screaming.

 

[Scoobs]

Yes, being posted to the States results in increased allowances, but I would say that the brutal exchange rate right now is hurting me.  I'm losing 25 cents on the dollar and that is made up in part by the allowances. 

I am personally looking forward to going back to Canada next APS.  Canada may have its issues in terms of being overtaxed, but after living out of Canada and deploying to "sunny" locations, I must say that it makes me love Canada even more.

 

[Pusser]

Yes, being posted to the States results in increased allowances, but I would say that the brutal exchange rate right now is hurting me.  I'm losing 25 cents on the dollar and that is made up in part by the allowances. 

I am personally looking forward to going back to Canada next APS.  Canada may have its issues in terms of being overtaxed, but after living out of Canada and deploying to "sunny" locations, I must say that it makes me love Canada even more.

That's exactly what the Post Living Allowance is designed to do (among other things), so I would argue that our allowances do more than "partly" make up for the difference in exchange rates.  In theory at least, they should make up entirely for the difference in exchange rates.  Since the Canadian dollar has plummeted in comparison to sterling lately, I've certainly seen a difference in my PLA, but not much in my take home pay after it's been converted to pounds.  The fact that I am insulated from housing and utility costs is really nice as well.

 

[FyroniK]

So... I've been lurking around the forums trying to find info on this... no luck hopefully I didn't miss it somewhere...

I've never been on IR before, I'm in line for a OUTCAN posting later this year and my common-law won't be able to come as they are attending university with three years remaining...

So question, will I be entitled to IR Benefits? What are the benefits exactly? From what I've been able to find, on normal IR the only benefit remaining nowadays is that your rent will be covered where your posted, Would this even apply outcan?

Anyone with experience on this with any info they want to share would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks

 

[Ostrozac]

I don't have the reference handy, but in recent years there were major changes made to IR. A member used to be able to go OUTCAN on IR, but as I understand that is now forbidden. There may be exemptions for service couples, who are sometimes considered IR and sometimes not (I don't even pretend to understand the spiderweb of rules that govern service couples).

Can you share more information? Is your spouse a civilian or a service member on UTPNCM? Are you looking at a 12 month staff college or a 3 year tour?

 

[mariomike]

Anyone with experience on this with any info they want to share would be greatly appreciated,

DAA would be a good person to ask. You can PM him if you prefer.