Pointing Lasers at Aircraft

[Inch]

Inch is the only military pilot I can find in this thread. I'm a civi one but that doesn't really count.

As I said though, this is a serious threat. Once more, we had a Major brief us on this sort of thing. They had him brief 50 teens from 16-18 years old. WE were warned to stay away from using something as low powered as a laser pointer since even something like that could damage your vision enough in a fairly short time to invalidate you medical. No medical, no flying. I have a feeling that this is pretty serious business.

It doesn't matter, we both fly and it's a threat to both of us. My eyes aren't any different than yours, except they're a little older!  ;D

We had the same lectures when I did my aeromedical training in Winnipeg, scary stuff to say the least.

Whats this medical have to do with a terrorist threat a chrashin a plan? Im failing to see relevance here...

Best case....because you blind a pilot that can't be replaced in short order, and you get less and less experienced pilots flying.

Worst case....it blinds the pilots at a critical phase of flight with catastrophic results. Hopefully they've got time to overshoot instead of hitting the ground.

 

[condor888000]

And you don't need glassses...lucky...

What I'm saying is that a low powered laser pointer that you can get for $20 at Radio Shack can damage your eyes bad enough in a very short exposure time for you to lose your medical, meaning that you lose your license. In effect, for $20, someone can wipe out $10,000 at least that was spent on training. Not including flight time after you're done. This is all civi stuff, much much more if it's a commercial or military pilot that gets hit. If a $20 laser pointer can do that in a short time frame, imagine what a more powerful one could do. It is certainly concievable that it could cause enough damage to cause the pilot to not become able to fly, at which point it becomes very likely that the aircraft could go down.

 

[Bert]

I think it can be agreed lasers and any interference to the pilot's control to the aircraft represents
a pausible danger.

Terrorists have consistently used simple and relatively inexpensive means to maximize damage.
A laser with enough optical power output to damage eyesight even momentarily, a
stable platform in which to aim the tighly focused beam, optics to maintain the beam
focus and significantly pass thru the optical coatings of the cockpit windows
(and loss throught the air) is an expensive beast.   IR, visible, and UV lasers found commonly
(under 30 dBm output) lack the ability to cause eye damage in short durations.   Maintaining and
targetting a beam directly into the pilots eyes during take-off or landing is no small feat and
would lack any consistent result.   I'd figure the use of lasers for the purposes of terrorism
and this scenario isn't likely.   There are simpler, cheaper, and more effective ways to cause crap
like this.

 

[Sheerin]

Looks like someone is using lasers on commerical jets.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/29/laser.plane/index.html

 

[Bert]

According to the article, the beam that "light up" the aircraft was from a location
15 miles away.  The article didn't indicate the exposure length, the method
they used to come to that fact, or the relative optical power.  It would be
interesting to find out if the beam followed the glide path or was a momentary
flicker.  This would indicate if it was purposeful.  I doubt a majority of the population
would have the ability to specifically target the glide path of an aircraft from 15 miles
away. 

Lasers in the visible spectrum can be easily purchased for a few dollars
at 7 dBm and a focused beam of that power can be seen miles away.  I'd suspect
the air transportation routes are more vulnerable to idiots with commercial
over-the-counter lasers than terrorists.

 

[I_Drive_Planes]

Laser Beamed at Jet

CLEVELAND (AP) -- Authorities are investigating a mysterious laser beam that was directed into the cockpit of a commercial jet travelling at an altitude of 2600 meters.  The beam appeared Monday when the plane was about 25 kilometers from Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, the FBI said.  "It was there for several seconds like (the plane) was being tracked," FBI agent Robert Hawk said.  The pilot was able to land the plane and air traffic controllers used radar to determine the laser came from a residential area in suburban Warrensville Heights.  Hawk said the laser had to have been fairly sophisticated to track a plane travelling at that altitude.  Authorities had no other leads.

 

[Big Foot]

it does seem to be a possibility for attack but honestly, aren't we talking about blinding two people here? to the best of my knowledge, copilots are trained piots and can therefore land the plane, albeit they have less experience than the pilot. but seriously, who thinks of these plots?

 

[Inch]

it does seem to be a possibility for attack but honestly, aren't we talking about blinding two people here? to the best of my knowledge, copilots are trained piots and can therefore land the plane, albeit they have less experience than the pilot. but seriously, who thinks of these plots?

If you recall, both pilots in the Sea King laser incident were blinded. Your point is what exactly? It only takes a second or two to do permanent damage. There's a reason every pilot I know tends to duck and close their eyes when some idiot is waving around a laser pointer. Maybe the rest of the military should have the same laser safety lecture that aircrew are given.

 

[Acorn]

If you recall, both pilots in the Sea King laser incident were blinded.

I thought it was the pilot (IIRC right seat) and the USN Intel guy observing out the same side. The co-pilot wasn't injured. In any case, the injuries were not immediately blinding.

Acorn

 

[Bert]

As much as the potential for lasers to create serious problems for landing aircraft, these articles
do not provide all the facts.  Radars and civilian airport equipment cannot track laser beams.
Some other method of optical detection was used.  And it likely had to be "triangulated"
in some way. The articles do not specify how long the aircraft was tracked consistently and the manner
in which the beam was illumuniated the aircraft.  Damaging beams are not usually in the visible spectrum,
typically small and tight beam diameter, high in optical power > 50 dBm, and one must have a stable
platform and targetting ability.  Beams that diffuse quickly over distances, are visible, and use unstable
platforms are not the type that damage eyes or burn but the glare/diffusion/and relative brightness in a
dark cockpit is more startling to the pilot.  You'll rarely find lasers in the visible spectrum above 25 dBm
commercially and most pen lasers have a surprising output power of 7 dBm.  I'm speculating but it seems
copy-cat-idiots-with-lasers (IWLs) and are running amouk.

 

[Korus]

The origin of the beam could be roughly guestimated knowing what portion of the cockpit was illuminated (from pilot), and where the aircraft was at that time (from the radar). But that's all heresay, I wasn't there and you're right: there aren't enough facts given in the articles.

And stop using dBm! I come to these boards to get away from my civvie life as an Engineer 

 

[48Highlander]

If by "roughly guestimated" you mean within 40 miles or so then yeah you're probably right   In order to triangulate it to any usable accuracy you'd need measurements which there's no way they could have gotten.  I don't understand why they'd invent false info like that though.

 

[Korus]

Yup, that's exactly what I mean by roughly guestimated.

 

[Inch]

I thought it was the pilot (IIRC right seat) and the USN Intel guy observing out the same side. The co-pilot wasn't injured. In any case, the injuries were not immediately blinding.

Acorn

You may be right, I thought it was two pilots. As for which side it was, it's not possible for a backseater to observe out the right side of the aircraft from his seat, he'd have to be at the cargo door which is approx 20 ft or so from the pilot's position, that laser would have to be moving around quite a bit to get them both.  The left side is a different story, the upper personnel door is right behind the left seat pilot, in this case the backseater would still have to be standing to see out that window which is a possibility if they were taking photos of the trawler.

To put it to rest, semantics I know, but the Aircraft captain is not always in the right seat. We switch around.

As for "roughly guesstimating", radar is pretty accurate as far as known positions.  We fly instrument approaches with radar only, it's as accurate as an ILS. The flight path to the runway is also a very narrow corridor, like less than 18 degrees wide measured from the runway. The most you're ever off runway centre line is a couple degrees once you're vectored onto it. Also, 3 degree glideslopes are used, so you have a known position within a hundred feet of the aircraft in all three dimensions. They knew exactly where the aircraft was, as for where the beam came from, I too think they BS'd a little, though I have a feeling that 15 miles isn't too far off.

 

[Bert]

This was the article with over-simplifications, questionable facts,
particularly when they "used radar" to determine the origin
of the beam.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6769203

The general public does not know alot about lasers and the media
often exacerbates ignorance by confounding facts and details leading
to wide speculations.   No real information has been provided in these
articles except for fact lasers have been used and noticed

Yet, I'm very surprised lasers in the visible spectrum at powers
as high as 7 dbm (can put a visible spot on a over wall 2 km away
and seen by targets kms away) are allowed to be sold to the general
public for mere dollars.  They may not be eye damaging at this
power but laser reflections can be disorientating and distracting to
drivers of cars, trucks, aircraft, especially when its
focused and collimated, and when abused by IWLs.   We seen
people use them in theatres and off balconies to flash cars and
pedestrians and personally its not the kind of thing (at that
output power) I'd like to see people use in this way.  Yet, its hard to
regulate since its widely available everywhere.

Next it will be dematerializing phase pistols.. get yours for $35.

 

[a_majoor]

LASER ATTACKS: This post from SgtStryker.com makes sense to me:

Lasers are not being used to blind pilots. Lasers are being used to measure straight line distance from the ground to an aircraft aircraft at its most vulnerable state - landing. An aircraft on takeoff would be a more difficult target - maximum power and maximum climb. But a landing ship slows down to a speed just short of a stall and follows a prescribed path of flight .

The information regarding an aircraft's peak vulnerability would be invaluable. Documenting landing approaches and and straight line distances would be highly useful in target acquisition. That information is critical regarding available weapons systems. . . .

The laser activity is more than likely a target acquisition exercise.

And people are taking notes.

There are too many cities and too many locations reporting laser incidents. In my view, they are calculating maximum ranges, with no intent to blind the crew.

I'm no expert on this, but it seems plausible.

Two other things:

1. Low powered lasers can startle or distract, but to cause permanent eye injury would require a cooperative target. You would be in much more danger if you were using binoculars or some other focusing optics and caught a laser beam, since the binos you are holding would do all the work for the terrorists. Similarly, an airline pilot should be looking over his entire field of vision, and at the control papaneland not be focusing on a point, like the unfortunate pilot and observer on the helicopter who were concentrating on the target.

2. The spread of stories is beginning to suggest urban legands or UFO report "flaps". I honestly believe many of the reported "sightings" would turn out to be fairly innocent events. I have seen bright flashes while looking out an airplane window during T/O and landing, which resolved themselves to be reflections from car or building windows a moment later.

 

[Acorn]

You may be right, I thought it was two pilots. As for which side it was, it's not possible for a backseater to observe out the right side of the aircraft from his seat, he'd have to be at the cargo door which is approx 20 ft or so from the pilot's position, that laser would have to be moving around quite a bit to get them both.   The left side is a different story, the upper personnel door is right behind the left seat pilot, in this case the backseater would still have to be standing to see out that window which is a possibility if they were taking photos of the trawler.

To put it to rest, semantics I know, but the Aircraft captain is not always in the right seat. We switch around.

I'm not too familiar with the Sea Thing, so right or left, or even out the front, could have been the case. All I know is that one of the CDN pilots suffered serious eye damage and was forced to leave the CF (well, he probably could have stayed in flying a desk, but he was permanently removed from flight status) and the other injury was the USN Intel Lt who was snapping photos (he was not a pilot). IIRC the second pilot was not injured.

The fight for benefits these guys made is a separate horror story (one that's on-going for the CDN pilot).

Acorn

 

[Inch]

I'm not too familiar with the Sea Thing, so right or left, or even out the front, could have been the case. All I know is that one of the CDN pilots suffered serious eye damage and was forced to leave the CF (well, he probably could have stayed in flying a desk, but he was permanently removed from flight status) and the other injury was the USN Intel Lt who was snapping photos (he was not a pilot). IIRC the second pilot was not injured.

The fight for benefits these guys made is a separate horror story (one that's on-going for the CDN pilot).

Acorn

Seen, I've heard quite a few horror stories about getting benefits from VA. Not a good way to thank someone for serving their country.

 

[PlatoonWatchdog]

MissMolsonIndy makes a good point, it will be interesting to see how the US Administration continues to instill the siege mindset on the US populace    :threat:.   The Threat Level barometer   :skull:, repeated tabloid-style news reports from the major networks   , incessant fearmongering in the print media, now lasers, what's next?  

You can't justify to the masses that they are consistently under threat (and accordingly not lose votes whilst spending megazillions on the war) unless they FEEL afraid-then it's okay, do whatever it takes.   An exercise in spin at it's worst-keep the people scared, that's a dirty game.  

Is there a real threat?   Sure there is, to what degree, experts disagree-mild to wild.   But any squad-sized band of fanatics can move "under the radar" in a country with 260 million people.      

This debacle known as The Iraq War has some tremendous spin going.   Don't even get me started on the Jessica Lynch "rescue" and subsequent "hero" label   :-X.   I'm sure her book will sell out   ???.   I'm more fascinated with the spin angle than the daily updates of the attempts to suppress insurgent activity, which makes the headlines nightly.

My two cents...

Cheers,

PlatoonWatchdog

 

[childs56]

military grade lasers are a very serious matter. The can burn your retinas out at ranges of 3 km or more. Usually the damage happens a while after the person was hit with the laser. The fact that some one is intentionally using lasers is of concern, this matter is serious although it may not seem like it. The realm of people insulting this situation is disturbing to the fact that no matter how minor the attack is, it is still an intentional attack. we need to look at ways to avoid these situations before a plane does crash due to this. Lasers are more dangerous then just the cheap pointer you buy at the local dollar store.  They can and will burn material, burn skin, cause damage to ther eyes. The way that it was presented may have been alittle off the handle, the new terroist attack using lasers. Yes kinda makes you want to laugh but still it is a threat. My 2 cents worth