PERs : All issues questions...2003-2019

[Kat Stevens]

The point I was trying, badly I guess, to make, is that civy jobs reward working long hours of high activity with monetary compensation.  The army does not.  The idea of getting our money's worth from troops by having them sitting on their thumbs till 16:00 every day is a civy idea that doesn't translate very well.  Add up the total hours in a year that your average troop spends "on the job", you may be surprised.  A civy also has the option of saying "no" to extra hours, soldiers don't.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

And the point I was making hamiltongs, and blatantly missed by you, is that troops RELISH hard work, and valuable training. They HATE sitting around, NOT WORKING, for no other reason than the RSM mandates it.

And yes, I've worked on civvy street too.

 

[Armymedic]

If the problem is OC's and CSM's upward, are keeping the sections sitting on their butts with nothing to do, then if is OUR job as Sgts and MCpls to invent things that the troops can do to keep entertained.

There is always more training, learning and refreshing need to be done. Vehicle and kit to be checked and maintained. Theoretical tactical problems that can be discussed, solutions found.

There is no excuse to have troops flattening their gluteus if the NCOs are worth their salt.

 

[chris_log]

No one's answered my question yet, which units are these where soldiers sit around doing nothing?

 

[X-mo-1979]

There is always more training, learning and refreshing need to be done. Vehicle and kit to be checked and maintained. Theoretical tactical problems that can be discussed, solutions found.

There is no excuse to have troops flattening their gluteus if the NCOs are worth their salt.

Agreed.However 8 hr days of dry training and sitting in a classroom gets real old real quick as you well know.I just can never see the reason we just can't send guys home.After a long deployment and 13 days off that's where guys heads are anyway.Why not give them time off/go to the gym when the MLOC training has been beat to death....as it already has.But alas something may come up prior to 16h00 which needs attention right away.

Another big one thats is pissing guys off is how messed up things get.I.E our sub unit UAB is still sitting in KAF.It also holds 2 pairs of green combats/1 pair black boot which we were FORCED to bring (it was enforced)due to it being on a kit list from battle group.Simple things drive guys nuts really.

 

[54/102 CEF]

From the Bureaucratic Trenches - just biding my time - waiting to pounce on all Fin Offrs when the balloon goes up in September

PS - Hats off to all old timers still with us from WW2 and all our Combat Arenas since then

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Agreed.However 8 hr days of dry training and sitting in a classroom gets real old real quick as you well know.I just can never see the reason we just can't send guys home.After a long deployment and 13 days off that's where guys heads are anyway.Why not give them time off/go to the gym when the MLOC training has been beat to death....as it already has.But alas something may come up prior to 16h00 which needs attention right away.

Another big one thats is pissing guys off is how messed up things get.I.E our sub unit UAB is still sitting in KAF.It also holds 2 pairs of green combats/1 pair black boot which we were FORCED to bring (it was enforced)due to it being on a kit list from battle group.Simple things drive guys nuts really.

+1 X-Mo.

My view is that, we all sign up knowing the vagaries of service, that with deployments, we will be away. When we have returned from deployments, and are on the 'recuperate' part of the readiness cycle, we expect to have a bit of stability in our lives. And so do our families. What screws that all up is the endless taskings, dog & ponies, and all other bits of nause that takes us away, when we in fact are supposed to be home. That, unfortunately, we also expect. That is the way of the world, doing too much with too little.

Now with that in mind, is it really a stretch to think: 'I can't see WWIII/Armageddon happening this afternoon, how about I ask for 4 volunteers to stick around in case something needs doing, and send the rest home/to the gym?'

Thinking like this will go a little way, and I mean a little way, to alleviating the overall sense of frustration felt by the troops. I know as a sapper I would be inclined to think, alright, we get the poo jobs from now and then (requiring me to work late/weekends etc), but at least I know my CofC has the common sense to cut me loose when their is no work to be done, and more importantly has the balls to look out for us.

Now in regards to X-mo's story about green combats in the UAB, one has to ask, why, out of the whole battlegroup's worth of SNCO's/senior officers, did someone not ask WHY???? And then pass that on to the troops????? Or rescind the quite obviously ridiculous order?

 

[Armymedic]

No one's answered my question yet, which units are these where soldiers sit around doing nothing?

Pick one. Even when a Bn is deployed, there is a rear party component. Regardless of the busiest training schedule, there will always be days, or even weeks when the troops are sitting.

 

[chris_log]

Pick one. Even when a Bn is deployed, there is a rear party component. Regardless of the busiest training schedule, there will always be days, or even weeks when the troops are sitting.

Heh, well, I haven't seen it where I am. Everyone, from the CO down is working continuously from day start to day end (and in many cases guys are going days without PT because there's too much work to do).

In fact, where I am people are releasing due to being way too overtasked (i.e. they and their families just can't keep up). Send some of your under-tasked people my way (especially people who can instruct), I'll find work for 'em. 

 

[Armymedic]

Piper,
Its the shortage of all those instructor level pers (MCpl, Sgt, WO, and Capts) is the entire reason that the troops are sitting waiting to go do something.

 

[X-mo-1979]

Now with that in mind, is it really a stretch to think: 'I can't see WWIII/Armageddon happening this afternoon, how about I ask for 4 volunteers to stick around in case something needs doing, and send the rest home/to the gym?'

Now in regards to X-mo's story about green combats in the UAB, one has to ask, why, out of the whole battlegroup's worth of SNCO's/senior officers, did someone not ask WHY???? And then pass that on to the troops????? Or rescind the quite obviously ridiculous order?

And believe me as soon as we saw it we quickly asked higher WTF.And were quickly told you will bring what is on the kit list,out.We left very early compared to the rest of the battle group,and then found out someone actually smartened up and told them to leave it home.
Here we are now with a huge percent of us posted,and UAB sitting in a seacan somewhere.

And believe me I got questioned a good many days about where so and so was.As far as I was concerned there was bugger all going on they could all take off/make appt's for the afternoon.I was quickly questioned about sending guys away....then a stop was put to it.

As far as I'm concerned making the schedule to say PT gym every afternoon after say 14h00 should be the norm.Why not do PT twice a day,soon enough we will be on work up and PT will never happen again.

 

[retiredgrunt45]

I may be old school but when you sign on the dotted line you do whatever is asked of you, If that means endless hours of boredom or weeks of back breaking labour or deployments, so be it, you belly up and do it.

The military has always been this way, lots of redtape, bureaucracy and sometimes a bit of confusion thrown in for good measure, its still better than any civy job.

If that memo gets sent back red inked to death, so what? If that directive isn't what its supposed to be, so what? If your sitting on your keister in a hanger for days on end, so what. Your getting paid regardless, pucker up and deal with it.

I hear allot of complaining, just like people do out here in civy land and boy can they complain!. "I gotta work this weekend!!" What, you want me to stay until six!!" "I gotta work over my lunch!!" on and on and on, the belly aching is endless!

I wish I was still serving, believe me, because I have a boss out here in civy land who is a brain sucking, micromanaging ***hole. Forn those of you considering release, take a bit of advice and think about your decision, because the grass is not always that green over on this side.

I once had an RSM that always told us

"Before you open your pie hole, make sure your brain catches up"

 

[chris_log]

Piper,
Its the shortage of all those instructor level pers (MCpl, Sgt, WO, and Capts) is the entire reason that the troops are sitting waiting to go do something.

I'm well aware of said shortage. That being said, there is still pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeenty of work for Pte's and Cpl's to do (again, just where I am it seems, according to the comments made here). It's incomprehensible to me how troops can be sitting around doing nothing. It shows only a complete and utter leadership failure.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I'm well aware of said shortage. That being said, there is still pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeenty of work for Pte's and Cpl's to do (again, just where I am it seems, according to the comments made here). It's incomprehensible to me how troops can be sitting around doing nothing. It shows only a complete and utter leadership failure.

And where is this place from which you have such clarity of vision to pronounce that so many units must have these instances of "complete and utter leadership failure"?  Please, enlighten us, since your profile describes no experience whatever.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I'm willing to bet there's plenty of sitting around "where you are", just not under the gaze of your apparently not so all seeing eye.

 

[chris_log]

I'm willing to bet there's plenty of sitting around "where you are", just not under the gaze of your apparently not so all seeing eye.

There really isn't. But hey, what do I know?

And where is this place from which you have such clarity of vision to pronounce that so many units must have these instances of "complete and utter leadership failure"?

That was mentioned previously in this topic, but I didn't see you jump on it then.

 

[Michael OLeary]

That was mentioned previously in this topic, but I didn't see you jump on it then.

Then reference the post.  I'd like to know what your experience and perspective is to make such a wide sweeping claim about unit level leadership.

 

[Kat Stevens]

There really isn't. But hey, what do I know?

More than me, clearly. I bow to both your omniscience, and your wealth of experience.

 

[X-mo-1979]

I may be old school but when you sign on the dotted line you do whatever is asked of you, If that means endless hours of boredom or weeks of back breaking labour or deployments, so be it, you belly up and do it.

The military has always been this way, lots of redtape, bureaucracy and sometimes a bit of confusion thrown in for good measure, its still better than any civy job.

If that memo gets sent back red inked to death, so what? If that directive isn't what its supposed to be, so what? If your sitting on your keister in a hanger for days on end, so what. Your getting paid regardless, pucker up and deal with it.

I hear allot of complaining, just like people do out here in civy land and boy can they complain!. "I gotta work this weekend!!" What, you want me to stay until six!!" "I gotta work over my lunch!!" on and on and on, the belly aching is endless!

I wish I was still serving, believe me, because I have a boss out here in civy land who is a brain sucking, micromanaging ***hole. Forn those of you considering release, take a bit of advice and think about your decision, because the grass is not always that green over on this side.

I once had an RSM that always told us

"Before you open your pie hole, make sure your brain catches up"

I also remember sitting around the hanger in 2000.Difference was we were not deployed with 6 months between returning and work up.We also noticed when we treat the troops well we get good results when needed(imagine that! we treated them good and they didn't become individuals questioning authority!)

However the leadership above has to realize the guys will be right back in the breach very soon, why not cut them some slack where we are able?

What am I doing? Not much now as I'm off work.However while I was there I was trying my best to convince the leadership that "if you got nothing to do don't do it here" was important in this re constitution phase.

And yes Retiredgrunt the army has changed.Dicking troops around is sorta frowned upon,and not a privilege of rank anymore.It disappeared along the time frame when your Mcpl decided if a injury on PT needed attention or if it was "nothing" and told you to suck it up.

One of the main things that has changed from your service time is people started realizing troops are our hugest resource.And dicking them around get's less enthusiastic results when you need them.They can fear you and your rank all they want but if they can actually respect (not even like)you for looking out for their interests you get better results.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Heh, well, I haven't seen it where I am. Everyone, from the CO down is working continuously from day start to day end (and in many cases guys are going days without PT because there's too much work to do).

In fact, where I am people are releasing due to being way too overtasked (i.e. they and their families just can't keep up). Send some of your under-tasked people my way (especially people who can instruct), I'll find work for 'em. 

Interesting,

Where do you work?

dileas

tess