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Pension Act vs NVA Lifetime Comparison

prairefire

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It must be age that made me do this but I turned 58 yesterday and have survived a triple bypass surgery and post op infections that put me into septic shock and almost killed me..........So the last year has been interesting to say the least.

I have attached a pdf of a spreadsheet that I prepared over my complete post military history with DVA. These are the actual amounts from 1992 until 2015. The rates used for 2016 are the new announced rates for those receiving Disability Pension Payments. For the forecast going forward from 2016 I used a conservative index of 1 per cent per year as it has not been far off that for the last several years.
This is my case file with DVA with the actual events and the dates received. This is a very clear illustration for the pre-NVC veteran of how the NVC penalizes us. Although I am not up to speed on all of the supposed new benefits most of them are not available to pre NVC vets because of time limitations.

The spreadsheet is very large and comprehensive but should be fairly easy to view at about 150% or 200% zoom. If you have any comments or questions I would very much like to hear what you have to say.

Each of us serve or have served in our own time and place. We have all had very similar yet different experiences. The one thing we all have in common is that we volunteered to serve and place our fellow soldiers and our units ahead of ourselves while we served. :cdn: :yellow: :yellow:

 

Wookilar

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Nice work.

I've been trying to figure out my own differences. I'm currently sitting at 47% (with 1 departmental review and 1 appeal in process) with three injuries currently under 5% each (1, 1 and 3 lol) with 2 of those processed under the old system.

While I was lucky and had a brilliant (and strong willed lol) NinerDomestic that made sure my lump sums went into the right places, I would have taken a monthly sum in a heart beat instead.

 

dunlop303

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Very nice work indeed,

It would make me sick to see what my chart would look like, rated at %100 between 2008 and now giving roughly 282k and I am 30.
 

Occam

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dunlop303 said:
Very nice work indeed,

It would make me sick to see what my chart would look like, rated at %100 between 2008 and now giving roughly 282k and I am 30.

Calculated on a napkin, using July 2008 as your eligibility date, married/no children pension rates, and using 2% as indexing annually (it's been less, but since this is a rough calculation, I didn't bother looking them up):

You'd have received approximately $273319 in monthly disability pension payments to date.
 

Occam

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Yup.

The Disability Award is exceptionally kind to older veterans.  Younger veterans, not so much.
 

Teager

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Under the old pension system when it says married and or with children does that mean you were married and had kids at time of injury to recieve that rate? Or can it apply to later in life?
 

Occam

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Teager said:
Under the old pension system when it says married and or with children does that mean you were married and had kids at time of injury to recieve that rate? Or can it apply to later in life?

If I understand your question, it applies as soon as you have a wife or child, whether it's at the eligibility date or later.  My eligibility date was 31 March 2006, and I received the spousal supplement as of that date.  When my son was born in 2007, that supplement was added as well.
 

Teager

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Thanks Occam that answers it.

This comes from the Equitas Society Facebook page. I only took a piece but a debrief of what was discussed with the stakeholders can be found there.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1011307165599547&id=244969555566649

Lump sum versus pension: This is the elephant in the room of the veterans community but I’m heartened to say it was not avoided or danced around. There was real genuine discussion at both meetings as to what the mandate letter was ordering and what the remedy would look like. No decision point was reached yet, but there was a general consensus that there is value to a pension for lifelong financial wellbeing, which contributes to mental well being. There was also an acceptance that there is value to receiving some money up front, especially for the morbidly wounded, as they will have instant and large costs. The consensus that was reached is that the solution would most likely require some form of amalgamation of the two concepts, or a hybrid solution. As well, it could require completely new legislation so if thats the case it will almost certainly require cabinet approval.
 

prairefire

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This is just an update to the calculation. One of the members here informed me that there was an error in the formulas of the spreadsheet. I have corrected it and here is the corrected revised amount. The net affect makes the lump sum payment look a little bit worse.
 

prairefire

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This article in the Ottawa Citizen sort of links to my original post.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/injured-veterans-to-get-choice-over-pensions-or-lump-sum-payments


I never wanted a lump sum but was forced to take it even though I enrolled and then left the CF while the Pension Act was in force.So this article leads me to two questions:

(1) How are they, or will they, adjust the lump sum to be a more equitable choice between pension or lump sum. The current difference in my example would be about $500 K and for some others even higher. Think about a 21 year old soldier with traumatic and life changing injuries. The average lifetime differential is huge.

(2) For those of us who were released while the Pension Act was in force and then forced under the NVA Lump Sums for new claims; and not being eligible for most of the new programs because of time limitations; how are they going to correct what was done in the many cases such as mine.

I know that I would need either immediate conversion to a pension and treating the lump sums as advances to be repaid or give me a lump sum of somewhere between $400K or $500K as a corrective payment in lieu of a pension. Remember when I joined the CF the promise that was made to me and many of my generation was that there was a disability pension available in case of life changing injuries that were service related. I was long gone from the CF when the NVA came along. Any such arbitrary changes of benefits in the civilian world would meet quickly with litigation and Employment Standards office getting involved. I know the CF is not like a civilian employer but generally in both civil and criminal law the courts look very unfavourably upon retroactive application of laws. 

 

Rifleman62

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This is also being discussed here where the same article was posted on 20 Jan 16.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/105851.200.html

I bet that the choice will be the current lump sum payment system that is awarded optioned as a monthly/annual pension.

But, hey everything is sunshine and butterflies.
 

Teager

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Rifleman62 said:
I bet that the choice will be the current lump sum payment system that is awarded optioned as a monthly/annual pension.

That already exists. I don't believe it is that. The article prairiefire put up is a bit more detailed than the one in the Sun. If it turned out to be the LS spread out they know the lawsuit would continue and they would be blasted by the vet community. Apparently CVA is taking some credit for this plan. I don't see the CVA pushing for something that already exists.

One thing that does point to either a return to the old pension or LS increase is the fact that the Minister has been asked if the government can afford pensions considering the current conditions of the economy. There's clearly going to be an increase in $. Come this Spring I believe we will have our answers on this issue and possibly on some others. Hopefully it's good news.
 

Rifleman62

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OK, thanks, keep your fingers crossed, but I do not trust the LPC.
 

ModlrMike

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You realize that we're talking about the same brain trust that got us into this position? I have serious doubts that they're actually interested in getting us out of it.
 

TCM621

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ModlrMike said:
You realize that we're talking about the same brain trust that got us into this position? I have serious doubts that they're actually interested in getting us out of it.
The NVC was a Liberal invention and while JT may be youngish he seems very keen on following the established party brain trust. The LPC priority has been,  and always will be,  keeping the "natural governing party" in power as much as possible. They don't have as much of an idealogy as either the NFL or the CPC,  so they have a lot more leeway to say whatever they need to to appease as many groups as possible. The classic example was trying to seem tough on terror while marching in parades supporting terrorists (ie the Tamil Tigers).
 

CountDC

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Occam said:
Yup.

The Disability Award is exceptionally kind to older veterans.  Younger veterans, not so much.

Find this interesting as when the switch was being made it was explained to me that it was due to exactly that group requesting the change to lump sum. 
 

Occam

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CountDC said:
Find this interesting as when the switch was being made it was explained to me that it was due to exactly that group requesting the change to lump sum.

In early 2006, I seem to recall general message traffic to the masses advising them that the ability to claim under the Pension Act was rapidly coming to an end.  Nobody I knew wanted anything to do with the NVC - and I hand carried my own disability claim application to the Post Office, had them postmark it with that day's date (31 March 2006), and I saved the photocopy of the postmarked envelope until I was absolutely certain I was being processed under the Pension Act.
 

Fishbone Jones

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CountDC said:
Find this interesting as when the switch was being made it was explained to me that it was due to exactly that group requesting the change to lump sum.

Who explained that to you? I have claims under both systems and I can assure you, that no one that I know dealing with VAC prefers the NVC over the lifetime pension.
 

prairefire

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I recently met with me MP and showed him this spreadsheet and he was quite surprised. He was under the impression that the NVC was such a great Act and had all these wonderful new programs. My MP is a Liberal. The background information he was provided with had all these impressive large dollar values of program services available under the NVC. I quickly demonstrated how many of the Veteran's are unable to access these programs and in my words the NVC was a cost saving exercise which was much like a Potemkin Village with no real substance. He was unaware of the dollar cost to the Veteran, especially those that had been released prior to the implementation of the NVC. He did not readily grasp the fact that many released members of the CF have injuries that do not completely manifest themselves when released. That injuries incurred in your service will become quality of life factors sometimes years after the event.

He said that the spreadsheet was enlightening and more informative then any of the DVA background notes provided to him. I explained that this was just one example at the mid-range of impact and that there will be significant numbers much worse and some much less.

What I draw from this is just how uninformed our MPs are, and what we must do to help inform them. If anyone wishes to have some help in preparing a similar spreadsheet illustrating your pension differential I would be happy to assist where I can, I will also prepare a copy of the actual spreadsheet that you can download and work on in your own time if members think it is worthwhile. They could be a useful briefing note if any of you have the opportunity to speak with your MP or anyone else of influence.

I am also attaching a PDF called Reference which provides a well prepared summary of the history of the Veterans Pension since WW1
up to 2004. It is lengthy but a careful and patient read may give you an idea of how we ended up where we are today.
 
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