Pension Act vs NVA Lifetime Comparison

[the 48th regulator]

Yes, $30 billion in debt times 4 years, $120Billion, min...great job...(sarcasm off)

And you actually believe this was created in the last Hundred days?

Where were you in the last ten years known as the decade of decay?

bigcletus' Canada priortot he current Government

 

[brihard]

As John points out, this is the first budget of four. Nobody who has been paying real attention expected much more than this in this budget. A number of the projects are longer term. We discussed a lot of this at the VAC stakeholder summit in December (I was there as part of the discussions), and the consensus was that much of this will take time to do right.

- A flat out return to the Pension Act in time for 2016 budget was offered, and we unanimously rejected it. The consensus was to take the time to do it right and not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
- The educational benefit is achievable, but some issues of criteria and definition need to be hammered out.
- The edicated veterans/first responders in patient mental health facility will be a project that takes considerable time.


Buried in the budget is talk of further consultation with veterans. Back in July two ministerial advisory groups were established by Min. O'Toole, one for policy/NVC, and one for service delivery. They are going to narrow these groups and create four new ones to focus on specific subsets of veterans issues. The committees will be comprised of a combination of 'layperson' veterans, representatives of traditional/larger veterans' organizations, and professionalsclinicians where applicable. Some very well respected and knowledgeable people are part of this. This consultation is going ot be necessary to flesh out some of the promises further over another year so they can bring them towards being deliverable.

The cynic in me thinks that we may see a return to a pension option happen in the last budget before the next election.

 

[Wookilar]

Brihard, thanks for the details. Nice to know what is going on in the background. It mostly goes unseen and swallowed by the sound and fury of the 30 second sound bites.

I have to agree on the sentiment re: pensions. We are talking about a great deal of money after all, combined with value judgements, cost-benefit analysis and politics so I would prefer a cold sober look at  the issues going forward.

And I hope to all the crown royal in Saskatchewan that it happens before the election, else I fear it will get swallowed in rhetoric.

 

[brihard]

The elephant in the room is the Equitas lawsuit. They remain in abeyance for the time being, and several plaintiffs/advisors are part of the ministerial advisory committees. Meaningful consultation through those committees in conjunction with real forward progress are necessary to keep the suit on hold. It the Equitas group comes to feel that the government is not progressing in good faith towards remedying the NVC's considerable financial shortcomings, the lawsuit can easily resume. Thus far VAC has been desperately trying to avoid that. I'm not sure our new government properly recognizes the significance of the lawsuit.

 

[Rifleman62]

I hope the Equitas lawsuit goes forward. If it does the media should pick it up so Joe and Jane public who care (few) will realize that the Liberals have reneged on their election promise to Veterans and used the various vocal Vet gps for their own political advantage.

I don't buy into that premise the Liberals may do in future budgets (except before the next election). It was a hot potato during the election re Harper cheating Vets or whatever. It should have been done in this budget, or at least stated it will be in the next budget. What is a few extra billion (??) on top of the projected 30 billion deficit, which is probably be under estimated?

To me, a service member who suffered a grievous injury, receiving -$400 K lifetime is an insult. Doesn't effect me thank goodness.

Don't forget, it was originally Liberal legislation.

Used again.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I'm not sure our new government properly recognizes the significance of the lawsuit.

Or of the optics of walking away from other litigation (this one, this one and this one, for example) while still only keeping the "pause" button pressed on this one.

Don't forget, it was originally Liberal legislation.

If only there had been another, non-Liberal party, vocal about the military and veterans, in a majority position to make changes to that legislation ...

Used again.

Can't disagree with you there, for sure.

 

[PuckChaser]

NVC can't be pinned on any one party, they were all complicit in its creation or inability to change it after the fact.

 

[brihard]

...so Joe and Jane public who care (few) will realize that the Liberals have reneged on their election promise to Veterans...

They have not. Except where they have explicitly stated that something is to happen immediately, the mandate letter to the minister is for the duration of the Liberal term. With a majority government, they have four years and four budgets.

It would be foolish to expect them to achieve much or most of this mandate in the first budget. "Re-establish life long pensions as an option for our injured veterans" is a project that will take more than the five months they have had. In December the department sought input from a wide array of veterans groups and advocates. They seemed to be listening. They were essentially given the blessing by all these stakeholders to take time and do it right. Note that from the same line item of the mandate letter, a lump some increase (retroactive) WAS already implemented. That was an easy one; low hanging fruit. Likely the increase to Earnings Loss Benefit.

The education benefit will take time to craft, so time must be taken. Establishing a veterans-centric in patient mental health facility (something which presently does not exist in Canada) will certainly take a couple years to plan and cost. Improving standards of care and service delivery is an ongoing process that started last summer well before the change in government. Hiring more case managers is likewise an ongoing process. The target ratio of 25 clients : case worker is a good and ambitious target. The target hitherto has been 30:1, and real numbers have oft been in the vicinity of 55-60:1. This will mean some aggressive hiring- but will put the department in a good position, building up a team of probably fairly young, early/mid career CMs, and getting them into the department as we approach a couple of decades where for demographic reasons such experts will be in high demand. It will take some years for these hires to be complete though.

Altogether an unimpressive budget, but not a failure either. They have also explicitly pledged to continue consultation with veterans over the next year. I am in a position to say that they seem to be expanding their stakeholder outreach, but we will see how that manifests in real action.

I am less interested, with regards to the veterans portfolio, in this budget than I am in the next one. It wil be the coming year that will show us if the Liberals intend to stand by their commitments to veterans.

 

[Rifleman62]

Yes and No. It was Liberal legislation. Election. On the aircraft coming back from the celebrations of the Liberation of the Netherlands (to which Harper invited the leaders of all parliamentary parties), they discussed the legislation and all agreed to pass the Bill, which they did as a new Bill in the new Parliament.

Yes they were all complicit with not changing it. I would say, as I have previously said, the official opposition, the NDP, who were thunderous in braying for Vets, did not bring in any amendments or a new Bill. Whether it would have passed or not is immaterial. The NDP did nothing but talk.

Now do you expect the Liberals to admit that their original legislation was a deplorable misjustice to Vets?

Do you expect the Liberals to admit that their original legislation was a deplorable misjustice to serving members and future Vets at the same time as they were committing the Cdn forces to combat? ERC has expounded on this several times.

Consult, study, etc, etc = delay, delay = nothing. You will your new boots first.

I hope all those vocal Vet gps start raising the roof with the Liberals, or will they crawl back under their rock.

Used again, and discarded.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... the official opposition, the NDP, who were thunderous in braying for Vets, did not bring in any amendments or a new Bill. Whether it would have passed or not is immaterial. The NDP did nothing but talk ...

But which party had it in its power to change things with a majority, no matter what the others wanted?  Or did they have some idea that it would cost a WHOLE hockey sock full o' money to implement a full pension system (as opposed to what looks like an insurance system)?

It wil be the coming year that will show us if the Liberals intend to stand by their commitments to veterans.

I hope all those vocal Vet gps start raising the roof with the Liberals, or will they crawl back under their rock.

:nod:

 

[brihard]

Consult, study, etc, etc = delay, delay = nothing. You will your new boots first.

Some things simply cannot be done immediately orquickly. Veterans groups have been insisting on greater consultation. In that that was a specific requirement of the Equitas lawsuit abeyance. That insistence on consultation resulted in the two Ministerial advisory GRoups created by O'Toole, and which are in the process of being expanded by Hehr. Those groups and the broader stakeholders summit counseled both immediate action on some things - ELB and the enhanced DA as examples, but also taking the time to do it right on restoring a pension and other longer term projects. Other aspects of the mandate will require further input from various professionals, clinicians, and experts, such as anything touching on mental health or on family care.

It takes time for government to do things. One does not simply concoct a bill one day and pass it the next.

 

[PuckChaser]

Brought 25,000 refugees here on a whim. Things can happen quickly if there is political will. We're getting a full defense review and white paper by the fall, I'd argue that's just as complex.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... That insistence on consultation resulted in the two Ministerial advisory GRoups created by O'Toole, and which are in the process of being expanded by Hehr ...

Curious - the cynic in me sometimes sees consultation as stalling instead of substantive action.  Do you get the feel they're really listening with an aim to change @ this point?

 

[Rifleman62]

Me:

Consult, study, etc, etc = delay, delay = nothing.

milnew.ca:

curious - the cynic in me sometimes sees consultation as stalling instead of substantive action

PuckChaser:

Brought 25,000 refugees here on a whim. Things can happen quickly if there is political will. We're getting a full defense review and white paper by the fall, I'd argue that's just as complex.

You got that right Pontiac.

If there is a will, there is a way. The Liberals have no will to do whats right for Vets.

Well there is a will: we the Liberals will not act on our promise to to the people of Canada (which includes Veterans).

 

[Rifleman62]

Look Brihard, how much consulting must be done when EVERYONE knows that Veterans are pissed off, and have been for years and years, about shitty lump sum payments vice life long pension with survivorship benefits?

It's the number two grip about VAC. ;D after deny, deny, die.

Everyone knew, even the Liberals. That's why they promised to bring back life long pensions.

 

[brihard]

Curious - the cynic in me sometimes sees consultation as stalling instead of substantive action.  Do you get the feel they're really listening with an aim to change @ this point?

Somewhat, yes. It started with Erin O'Toole. He brought together a couple groups of veteransto start diving into service delivery and policy issues. Quick changes were made to forms, MyVAC etc that resulted in some considerable simplifcation for service delivery. RISB and CIB immediately came into the gunsights and have been and will remain the subject of some serious scrutiny of their manifest flaws. But yes, questions were asked of veterans and responses listened to. BAsed on the high bar that O'Toole set, Hehr is bound to continue the consultative process- and at any point if it's felt he's not listening, Equitas can resume legal proceedings. That's the stick.

Look Brihard, how much consulting must be done when EVERYONE knows that Veterans are pissed off, and have been for years and years, about shitty lump sum payments vice life long pension with survivorship benefits?

It's the number two grip about VAC. ;D after deny, deny, die.

Everyone knew, even the Liberals. That's why they promised to bring back life long pensions.

They promised a pension option. As I said, a flat restoration of the pension act was offered for this budget, but would have scrapped NVC. It was floated to and rejected by a broad assortment of veterans brought together by the department to provide direct feedback on veterans issues. Because of that it will be necesary to create a new option that achieves the optional pension objective, AND integrates ELB, PIA, PIA-S, SISIP, CPP, CPP-D, RISB, etc. And it will need to be equitable in result to the old Pension Act amounts, which means in turn that the lump sum option - still inclusive of all of those benefits, plus other one time payments such as CIB - must be brought up to a greater level as yet to be determined by the mathemagicians. All of this needs to be done in a way that does not open a fourth class of vets (Pension Act, NVC without CIB, NVC with CIB, and then a new pension act one) but that rather closes the gaps btween the three existing classes of veterans in receipt of injury/disability benefits, and compensates them adequately. And, the big elephant in the room, all of this needs to keep Equitas happy, OR the government needs to decide that what they're offering is good enough, and accept resumption of the suit.

There is much, much more complexity to this than is apparent to you.


Edit To fix format, and to remove some unnecessary snottiness on my part. Apologies.

 

[Rifleman62]

Thank-you. You know your business obviously from your answer. You are to be commended.

My point of view, without knowing the complexities as you state.

It will take a long time, for sure, probably just in time for another pension option "promise" four years from now.

 

[Teager]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/veterans-advocates-question-how-much-federal-cash-infusion-will-help-1.2829524

This article helps with what Brihard is saying. I'm having trouble with my tablet copying what the Minister says and posting it here but basically it's a re cap of what Brihard has been saying.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Thanks, Brihard, for the textured, nuanced details - much appreciated.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/veterans-advocates-question-how-much-federal-cash-infusion-will-help-1.2829524

This article helps with what Brihard is saying. I'm having trouble with my tablet copying what the Minister says and posting it here but basically it's a re cap of what Brihard has been saying.

Allow me, then  ;D

...  There was no sign of such a change in Tuesday's budget, but Veterans Affairs Minister Kent Hehr says the government still backs the promise and needs time to consult on how it can be delivered.

"This is clearly in my mandate letter," Hehr told The Canadian Press in an interview Wednesday. "We're working towards implementing those commitments we made during the election and going forward."

Hehr wouldn't speculate on how long that will take ...

... with this from the Mandate Letter (highlights mine) - also attached in case the link doesn't work for you:

... In particular, I will expect you to work with your colleagues and through established legislative, regulatory, and Cabinet processes, including our first Budget, to deliver on your top priorities:

    Work with the Minister of National Defence to reduce complexity, overhaul service delivery, and strengthen partnerships between Veterans Affairs and National Defence.

    Re-establish lifelong pensions as an option for our injured veterans, and increase the value of the disability award, while ensuring that every injured veteran has access to financial advice and support so that they can determine the form of compensation that works best for them and their families.

    Expand access to the Permanent Impairment Allowance to better support veterans who have had their career options limited by a service-related illness or injury.

    Provide injured veterans with 90 percent of their pre-release salary, and index this benefit so that it keeps pace with inflation.

    Create a new Veterans Education Benefit that will provide full support for the costs of up to four years of college, university, or technical education for Canadian Forces veterans after completion of service.

    Improve career and vocational assistance for veterans through ensuring that job opportunities for returning veterans are included in Community Benefits Agreements for new federally-funded infrastructure projects.

    Deliver a higher standard of service and care, and ensure that a “one veteran, one standard” approach is upheld.

    Re-open the nine Veterans Affairs service offices recently closed, hire more service delivery staff, and fully implement all of the Auditor General’s recommendations on enhancing mental health service delivery to veterans.

    Create two new centres of excellence in veterans’ care, including one with a specialization in mental health, post-traumatic stress disorder and related issues for both veterans and first responders.

    Provide greater education, counselling, and training for families who are providing care and support to veterans living with physical and/or mental health issues as a result of their service.

    End the time limit for surviving spouses to apply for vocational rehabilitation and assistance services.

  Increase the veteran survivor’s pension amount from 50 percent to 70 percent.

    Eliminate the “marriage after 60” clawback clause, so that surviving spouses of veterans receive appropriate pension and health benefits.

    Double funding to the Last Post Fund to ensure that all veterans receive a dignified burial.

    Work with the Minister of National Defence to develop a suicide prevention strategy for Canadian Armed Forces personnel and veterans ...

We'll see ...

 

[brihard]

The CTV news article is pretty decent over all. While Mike Blais is far from an accurate barometer of the collective views of the veterans community, his POV on this one is more or less in line with a lot of what I'm seeing in the community... However much of that is based, as we've seen here, on an incomplete understanding of the complexity of the issue, and an assumption that 'mandate letter' = 'first budget'.

New advisory committees have been established for mental health, family care, commemoration, and care and support (think more but not entirely geriatrics stuff). This is on top of the established (but now shuffled) committees for policy/legislation, and service delivery. The expansion to six committees from two is seeing the inclusion of reps from groups like the LEgion, the UN Peacekeeprs association, NATO vets association, Aboriginal vets association, etc, on top of what was before largely a group of individual veterans, a couple Equitas members, and a couple of civilians with particular military connections/expertise. Full composition of the committees isn't know yet. Overall I'm cautiously optimistic about how it will go, but time will tell. I do believe that they care what the Veterans community has to say, however as always it will be subject to political exigencies.