Out-of-shape soldiers a 'national threat'

[Eye In The Sky]

"Being fit may be a requirement of service, but I expect you to do personal PT on your own time. The workday is for work".

Can I ask where that quote is from?  I can say with absolute certainty it is contrary to the direction in the CDS Guidance to COs.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Can I ask where that quote is from?  I can say with absolute certainty it is contrary to the direction in the CDS Guidance to COs.

I am fairly certain he hauled it out of his 4th point of contact ;D

 

[DVC185]

Unproductive comment snipped.

That's a shame you feel that way but that is my opinion based on experience. Don't lose sleep over it.

Perhaps you could offer something from your occupational or elemental point of view on the introduction and maintenance of a culture of fitness from recruitment to retirement.

 

[OldSolduer]

I may have said this already, my apologies if I have, but this is what I tell my troops:

You don't have to be JTF2 or CSOR fit. I expect you to be fit enough to pass (insert name of test here). We are a Class A organization and realistically we can't pay you to do PT, but it would be a benefit to you if you did some kind of PT on your own.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I may have said this already, my apologies if I have, but this is what I tell my troops:

You don't have to be JTF2 or CSOR fit. I expect you to be fit enough to pass (insert name of test here). We are a Class A organization and realistically we can't pay you to do PT, but it would be a benefit to you if you did some kind of PT on your own.

:goodpost:

And that, Jim, is what everyone must do: make sure your people can pass the mandatory standard test.

If your organization needs different or higher standards, in addition to the CF wide mandatory one(s), then by all means train to them, but, as has been stated, there is a mandatory, validated, minimum standard for everyone.

The real problem is: are there enough, good enough, leaders to identify and help (including "help" right out of the CF) those who cannot or will not meet that minimum standard?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I am fairly certain he hauled it out of his 4th point of contact ;D

:blotto:

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Isn't the good Pt and being in top shape why we all joined ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD4xwK13lGk

 

[Monsoon]

I have seen the fitness standards compromise an attack on ex Maple Guardian. I have seen multiple soldiers fall out of company attacks and platoon attacks on desert ram. I have had too personally leave a medic close to 400m behind on a live fire night platoon attack. All of the people involved in these instances were sent overseas. Fortunately only on our "new" mission.

I guess "anecdotal" is a kind of evidence, but I was thinking that an issue that the CF's senior leadership is directly seized with must have some quantifiable basis at an operational/strategic level: something like numbers of people who DAG red for fitness reasons, number of people re-patted for fitness-related injuries, etc.

I would guess that our operations are as likely to be compromised by people who lack a fighting attitude as by people who are physically unfit. The phrase "the work will always be there" to justify doing extra PT without extending the work day has certainly popped up in this thread a few times; it's a short hop from there to the folks who show up at 8:30, take an hour and a half lunch and skate out at 3. I don't see much difference between that attitude and someone who falls out of an attack exercise because they didn't do enough jogging. There's physical toughness and metal toughness: they're both important.

 

[UnwiseCritic]

I guess "anecdotal" is a kind of evidence, but I was thinking that an issue that the CF's senior leadership is directly seized with must have some quantifiable basis at an operational/strategic level: something like numbers of people who DAG red for fitness reasons, number of people re-patted for fitness-related injuries, etc.

I would guess that our operations are as likely to be compromised by people who lack a fighting attitude as by people who are physically unfit. The phrase "the work will always be there" to justify doing extra PT without extending the work day has certainly popped up in this thread a few times; it's a short hop from there to the folks who show up at 8:30, take an hour and a half lunch and skate out at 3. I don't see much difference between that attitude and someone who falls out of an attack exercise because they didn't do enough jogging. There's physical toughness and metal toughness: they're both important.

I find the two often over lap. True it's not always.

As for aiming to pass the test (minimum) that's not a bad thing. But when our tests get so easy to pass... It might hurt the organization. In reality the only thing I think that could bring back some of the old is a larger war... We have gotten good at looking out for the welfare of our men on the home front. With all these new hippy ideals, but there has to be some kind of balance. It might just be a little lop sided. But I don't know if we even all agree that the fitness of the CF is suffering.

Stepping up our game as an institution and facilitating change that will cause physical and mental duress is not our specialty. And this thread just makes me frustrated as there are some valid points and genuine ideas. That will never be implemented. Anyways time for me to bow out because all we're doing now is :deadhorse:

 

[Monsoon]

I find the two often over lap. True it's not always.

I'll buy that. I just wonder at amount of time we spend working on the "fitness" end of the issue as compared to the other half.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I'll buy that. I just wonder at amount of time we spend working on the "fitness" end of the issue as compared to the other half.

You know the old saying, "perception is reality" I can agree with what you are saying hamiltongs, part of the problem is not empowering our guys enough to "want" to do the things we want them to do.  Edward touched on this being about leadership and I think he is right.  Perhaps we need to stop looking at treating the symptom which is poor fitness and look more at treating the real problem which is a lack of motivation and mental drive.  Thoughts?

 

[OldSolduer]

Lets not forget that our soldiers must be mentally fit as well. They go hand in hand.

Unmotivated troops will perform PT poorly. Troops that are ridden like rented mules will perform poorly. Leaders who have neither the time nor inclination to come up with a PT program and depend on ruck marching and running will ultimately bore troops to death.

One of my OCs in 2 VP in 96-97, a fitness god himself, gave the leadership of the coy the tools and said "get on with it, in two weeks I lead PT". He did. He did not publicly whip those who were a bit slow. He praised the effort and said "lets see improvement next week" - and if that soldier improved, even marginally the OC praised him for it.

That is what we should strive for.

 

[STJ_Kierstead]

I agree with this method, I have not yet started the BMQ but i have been training with my gf and every time i improve my times or weights or cut a bit of weight [i have adjusted my eating habbits] - positive enforcement is much more tolerable than telling you your not doing good enough.

People need to strive to be the best they can, but everyone needs to realize it does not happen over night. It takes planning and training, and some people lack knowledge required on eating healthier, the benefits and how to change your body to be in better shape.

It is not easy for everyone but I believe it is possible for most.

No excuse for lazy, you gotta want it!

 

[Jarnhamar]

You know the old saying, "perception is reality" I can agree with what you are saying hamiltongs, part of the problem is not empowering our guys enough to "want" to do the things we want them to do.  Edward touched on this being about leadership and I think he is right.  Perhaps we need to stop looking at treating the symptom which is poor fitness and look more at treating the real problem which is a lack of motivation and mental drive.  Thoughts?

I'd like to see more "PT on your own" or PT held at the section level.
Set a PT standard and if someone doesn't meet the standard then their name gets added to a list of pers who do duty over stat holidays, leave blocks, maybe some weekends.  More base duties.  Don't send them away on fun taskings or courses.


I'm sure someone could be considered fairly unfit and still pass the FORCE test, is it fair to punish them for being unfit if they pass the test the CF accepted?

 

[Kat Stevens]

I'd like to see more "PT on your own" or PT held at the section level.
Set a PT standard and if someone doesn't meet the standard then their name gets added to a list of pers who do duty over stat holidays, leave blocks, maybe some weekends.  More base duties.  Don't send them away on fun taskings or courses.


I'm sure someone could be considered fairly unfit and still pass the FORCE test, is it fair to punish them for being unfit if they pass the test the CF accepted?

That's called "punishment".  If your pre set arbitrary PT standard isn't met, unless it's carved in stone somewhere, it is just that, arbitrary and therefore a huge opening for a mountain of grievances to be filed.  You can't punish without there being an offence, and all you do is create a monster where once there was a mouse.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

That's called "punishment".  If your pre set arbitrary PT standard isn't met, unless it's carved in stone somewhere, it is just that, arbitrary and therefore a huge opening for a mountain of grievances to be filed.  You can't punish without there being an offence, and all you do is create a monster where once there was a mouse.

This is completely true and a total slippery slope if you go down this path.  I honestly think the best we can hope for is for our existing policies to be more stringently enforced.  Maybe if fitness is held to a greater importance at the beginning of someone's career i.e. recruiting stations and basic we can mitigate some problems later on?

 

[ModlrMike]

I see it as a symptom of the "do more with less" mindset we've developed over the years. Can't be done; something has to give. In most cases, that's been PT.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I'm sure the army has changed a lot since my departure, but it always seemed to me that, other than a few real enthusiasts, at the lower ranks PT was something to be endured, not enjoyed or embraced.  As guys moved off the concrete floor and into the air conditioned part of the building, PT became more and more important.  I knew plenty of guys who hated PT as Cpls, and by the time they were Sgts they loved it, maybe it was getting out from behind a desk for an hour, I dunno.  We had a CO, LCol let's call him Applesomethingsomething, who stood in front of a Sqn of heavy equipment and armoured engineer operators, and told us that PT was the toughest part of our day, it was all coasting to quitting time from there.  Huge disconnect between air conditioning and concrete there.

 

[JorgSlice]

I can definitely say that there have been more times on courses or at the unit where I have actually hated doing PT. Part of that was because you'd get this crazy fitness buff who beasts everyone regardless of level and then turns around and jacks you up for not being able to keep up to a 6-foot-5 triathlete running at full tilt when you're someone of short stature. Even though I have good fitness and every year I've finished in the higher end of the EXPRES test, part of that has to do with my day job but I still don't enjoy being killed for fitness.

The times I really have enjoyed PT are the occasions of circuit training with the PT SME of unit who is a level headed person, guides those struggling and offers positive reinforcement. That's when I actually gave a crap and WANTED to participate and do better. Then we'd have our little unit version of the Crossfit Games, a little friendly competition and I don't mind getting beasted, but not every day.

 

[chrisf]

We have gotten good at looking out for the welfare of our men on the home front. With all these new hippy ideals, but there has to be some kind of balance.

I realise this was a bit further back in the conversation, but just reading to catch up...

Just so we're perfectly clear, did you really just call taking care of the welfare of your troops and their families "hippy ideals"?