Oh dear God, you must be kidding me....

[Hawk]

Absolutely, Kat - but till they are old enough to get beyond the end of the driveway, Mom and Dad have to instill the basic ideas of right and wrong, give them the confidence to judge their peer group accurately, and the courage to say no, I won't do that - its wrong.

Laws have to be enforced, penalties stiffened, and punishment has to be meted out in a way to teach kids, if their parents didn't, right from wrong. No more excuses, and no more Mr Nice Guy. Before all of society is sorry, we have to sort these little pinheads and their pinhead pals out.

Let me tell you about my son as a 15-year-old pinhead. He, and 2 friends got caught in some minor vandalism behind their school. No charges, the school wanted to handle it - they were basically good kids, just being really dumb! Mom did, however, have to go get him from the RCMP. Read the riot act, grounded for 3 weeks, as I remember. At school The Kid and the other pin heads had to remove all graffiti off lockers and walls - it took them 2 or more weeks. Now: grounding at our house meant SLAVE. I got the flower gardens weeded, and the lawn mowed. I didn't have to water them for 3 weeks, and he hated garden work! I got the basement cleaned. His Dad got the truck cleaned out, washed and waxed. The back step got leveled. Other than that, for 3 weeks he walked his dog as usual, did his homework, as usual, and agreed upon activities were music lesson, Cadets and school. Nothing else, not even going for ice cream after the garden was weeded. Cut off, Lad!! How did he turn out? Just fine - the kind of adult son a mother can be proud of. He works hard, obeys the law, treats his Significant Other with respect, and he's good to his mother.

Just so you know I had a pinhead, too, but I wasn't going to throw him aside, tolerate the attitude, or leave it to  Society to deal with him. I like to think I was a caring parent - we tried to be very careful how we raised him. At 28 he still calls me when something exciting has happened to him. And I was the meanest Mom in town - just ask him!


Hawk

 

[lawandorder]

ZHC, you made a good argument, but then if punishment is applied consistently what happens to Joe when he commits his first offense and its a mere petty theft of say a bike.  Around $200?  what happens to him, as opposed to a kid that consistently re-offends?  is the punishments different or should the both be whipped just as hard?

Steel Badger you said sentencing should be harsh?  Sentencing in the states is harsh....people constantly receive 100+ years in prison for their crimes.  That however doesn't seem to deter criminals nor does it solve their crime problems.  Locking someone up for a lengthy period of time is a band-aid solution that could have a "blow back effect" when the offender is released.  Now I'm not a bleeding heart liberal in any way and obviously I think crime and the justice system needs some long needed repairs, but from my studies and experience criminals needs more then just being locked up, they need opportunity to be integrated in to society in a productive manner after their release date, especially YO's, otherwise all we have done is temporarily ceased their criminal behaviors. 

Maybe we need a system that doesn't give a specified jail term for certain crimes, but a set of conditions that must be met in order to be released.  Like making sure everyone has at least a high school education.  Career counsellings, career training or something......just suggestions.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from: Law & Order on Today at 16:06:46
but from my studies and experience criminals needs more then just being locked up 


[1] Forget your studies,......I actually am really sorry, but you didn't learn anything useful about criminals.
[2] Between Steel Badger and myself we have well over 30 years experience with locked-up criminals.....and he's right


Quote from: Law & Order on Today at 16:06:46
criminals needs more then just being locked up, they need opportunity to be integrated in to society in a productive manner after their release date, especially YO's, otherwise all we have done is temporarily ceased their criminal behaviors.  


...99% DON'T want to "intergrate into society" and/or "cease their criminal behaviors"...........what now, brown cow?.....maybe change society to suit them?  You don't get it, just like some people are not cut out for the military, some people are not cut out for 'civilized' society.

Quote from: Law & Order on Today at 16:06:46
   Like making sure everyone has at least a high school education.  Career counsellings, career training or something......just suggestions.


They have all that and more....................Karla ring a bell? We had a certified high school at the jail in Guelph. The principal was the highest paid guy in the building. I couldn't start to list the different programs from memory that we have where I am now.


Hey, just my jail has "cured" Peter Whitmore twice now....... :

 

[lawandorder]

Good points and I don't dispute your experience while working with/in the system.
While my "studies" didn't teach me specifically about criminals, it did teach me about human behavior and how society has responded to criminal over the decades/centuries.  And as a result of the various takes on punishment of both youth and adults, no matter if it was corporal punishment, death sentences, or being locked up forever and being shipped to an island in the middle of the Ocean, it didn't really change the fact that crimes were still happening and criminals were re-offending.  And the 99% that you say don't want to be integrated into society, thats probably true.  But with the two of you with over 30 years experience in the business of doing the job that you do, what would you suggest is the solution?  IS locking them up for long periods of time the best solution?

And while you say forget my studies and haven't learned anything about criminals??  Well I am actually really sorry and that I have.  You really don't know what I've studied or who for that matter.  While I do admit that I don't have the years of experience as you do, I do have the the perspective that the justice system doesn't work the way it is, and it can't hurt too much more trying new things and new approaches when it comes to young offenders.

I've worked with youth, and have seen kids that were bad apples when they were young come full circle to seeing them in a courtroom on charges.  AND I can tell you right now, locking a kid up for an extended period of time isn't the solution, neither is corporal punishment.  There is far much more to the problem then can be fixed by locking people up and beating them.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

While my "studies" didn't teach me specifically about criminals, it did teach me about human behavior

Useless............IMO, human behavior can't be taught.  The academic don't want you to know that though, they want their money. ........or did you KNOW I was going to say that? Hmmm.... ^-^

And while you say forget my studies and haven't learned anything about criminals??  Well I am actually really sorry and that I have.  You really don't know what I've studied or who for that matter.  While I do admit that I don't have the years of experience as you do, I do have the the perspective that the justice system doesn't work the way it is, and it can't hurt too much more trying new things and new approaches when it comes to young offenders.

Well since we have been mollycoddling them for twenty+ years now and that hasn't worked I guess the "new" approach you suggest must be to "lock em up and beat them".
Just how in the name of stupid did you make that reach?

I don't want longer sentences, why would I want criminals to be in their nice comfortable digs even longer than necessary?  Harder sentences are what must be done...............I thank someone everyday that there wasn't the YOA when I was 16 years old, chances are I would still be a long-haired dirtbag who thought that stealing wasn't that big of a deal.

 

[lawandorder]

Well since we have been mollycoddling them for twenty+ years now and that hasn't worked I guess the "new" approach you suggest must be to "lock em up and beat them".
Just how in the name of stupid did you make that reach?

Well the new approach of locking them up and beating them isn't my idea, it was a suggestion posted by more then a few in previous posts, I simply said that that is not the answer.  Maybe there was some mix up on mine, yours, or  someone else's part.  So I guess to answer your question is that I didn't reach into stupid and pull that one out.

The YOA did have problems, that's why the government came out with the YCJA, unfortunately that didn't have enough teeth either.  So while we disagree on certain issue such as education.....yes basic innate human behaviour can be taught in my opinion(I guess we'll just have to live with disagreeing with each other on that one )......we can agree that things aren't quite working out in the youth system.  So focusing on youth, since this was the topic of discussion, what in your opinion is a rational, logical, and practical solution to taking care of youth's and crime.  Everything from first offences to re-offenders.  I am genuinely asking this question to those who have experience working in the system and not being sarcastic.

 

[Steel Badger]

Although "corporal " punishment is seen by all as the "old way", it still exists in our jails and detention centres. Unlike what they teach new staff at our Coconut Colledge; Inamtes don't meekly and serenly submit to the direction of staff. A great many of them have difficulty understanding anything but force

Forget about "why" they became that way, thats the reality. With each other, with staff and anyone else;their first , best resort is violence....and they DO NOT want to charge...nor do they see the need too.

They can manipulate the system to their advantage and do so on a regular basis.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

For first time offenders, the sentence should be physically harsh, with no jail (speaking to property crimes).  Subsequent offences should garner sentences that get severe fairly quickly.  For repeat/incorrigable prisoners longer sentences provide a band aid protection for society while the gearbox is in jail.  As for what happens in jail, that needs to be looked at. 
Jail, IMO, must be a brutal, soul crushing experience.  Perhaps a graduated incarceration system.  After sentencing, criminals go to a "behavior repaterning" facility.  Bamboo mats in 10 watt lighting, barely nutritional gruel, forced labour with cattle prod instant punishments for those who don't comply.  Once some progress is made, they may graduate to a military style prison ala Club Ed.  There, they would be    provided an opportunity to demonstrate how they plan to better themselves.  Attending classes would require performance and standards, and if anyone slacked off, sassed back or otherwise displeased anyone; back to the work camp.  Again, exhausting days, but working towards some positive end stated.  Provide trade shops and hook parolees up with employers that are willing to take a chance.  Electronic monitoring devices would be worn/installed to ensure that the parolee is complying with their conditions, with lethal anti tampering capability. 
As for the ones who can't/won't change?  Leave them in the brutal system indefinately.  I would rather be wasting my tax dollars on someone who ends up on permanant disablilty than how much money gets spent on the system now. 
Life sentences would mean just that.  You are in the brutal system until you are dead.  Perhaps an incentive system could be created whereby a lifer could get a $10,000 bonus paid to their family or charity of their choice if they chose a lethal injection instead of staying in the system? 

 

[Hawk]

Something sure has to be done! Latest from Winnipeg, car theft capital of Canada:

Two kids, 15 and 16 stole a truck and killed a man on a bicycle. They were level 3 and level 4 car thieves, so they've done this before, and the cops knew them. They're in the youth detention center, and any bets they get off YET AGAIN? Where is this going to end? They have rights, but what about the man they killed, didn't he have rights too? Life was better when all the rights a kid had were a right to food, clothing, shelter and education. Any other rights were at the discretion of their parents, and they didn't include a right to annoy society.


Hawk

 

[Brad Sallows]

Long days of hard work with no down-time privileges will sort out any reasonable person.  And I see no reason for habitual criminals (repeat offenders) to have any say in the lives of others (ie. exercise a vote), ever, since their rational and moral judgement is clearly lacking.

 

[Drummy]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert on the law. But....it seems to me that we have a fairly good Legal System in this country of ours,......BUT NOW WE NEED A JUSTICE SYSTEM.

Drummy

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert on the law. But....it seems to me that we have a fairly good Legal System in this country of ours,......BUT NOW WE NEED A JUSTICE SYSTEM.

Funny how these things always seem to drift back to the onus being on the judges to do something....