- Reaction score
- 5
- Points
- 430
- Reaction score
- 68
- Points
- 680
Michael O`Leary said:
I'll drink to that
;D
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 27,304
- Points
- 1,160
"In the World War nothing was more dreadful to witness than a chain of men starting with a battalion commander and ending with an army commander sitting in telephone boxes, improvised or actual, talking, talking, talking, in place of leading, leading, leading."
J. F. C. Fuller http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/j_f_c_fuller.html
Having said that though, in the infantry you will certianly have a good opportunity to 'lead, lead, lead' which, in this day and age, means being good at fulfilling your duties in both the field and the office. And, depending on how busy your unit is, the latter will be a welcome break from the former.
J. F. C. Fuller http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/j_f_c_fuller.html
Having said that though, in the infantry you will certianly have a good opportunity to 'lead, lead, lead' which, in this day and age, means being good at fulfilling your duties in both the field and the office. And, depending on how busy your unit is, the latter will be a welcome break from the former.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Don't be fooled about NCMs either though, while it is true that privates and corporals spend their time "hands on" at work, as they progress up the latter there is less and less "hands on" and more driving a desk. Especially once you become a SNCO.
Rowshambow said:
Is this systemic? This type of situation has been around for decades. In the early sixties in Gagetown there were RCD officers in the Black Watch commanding platoons because there was a shortage of junior infantry officers and a surplus of armour infantry officers in 3 CIBG at the time. In the mid seventies when I was in the artillery school my colleagues in the armour school were faced with the prospect of producing too many subalterns who would never command a troop in an armoured regiment. This also was the situation in the late seventies when I was in the individual training shop at FMCHQ; each year the NDHQ forecast requirement for armoured subbies was totally off the wall compared to the ability of the army to train and employ them. In the last case at least this apparently was based upon the large number of unfilled positions in the ranks of armoured captains and the attempts by the centrailized personnel system to address the shortage.
- Reaction score
- 22,918
- Points
- 1,090
Problem is, a shortage of Capts today requires recruiting too many subbies so those positions can be filled in the future. Things will get worse before they get better; there are stresses throughout the officer and NCM corps of the Regular and Reserve Forces.
So more junior folks underfoot for the foreseeable future, who need to be shaped and formed.
Part of the problem today is that when we did FRP and its realted reductions in the 1990s we fired all the long-term HR planners. So people who looked and saw all their Capt positions were filled said "No problem", instead of noticing that their Capts were aging badly and there was no pool coming up behind them.
Promotion rates in 08/09 for certain ranks and trades are alarming; the experience deficit is getting larger. Interesting times, to say the least.
So more junior folks underfoot for the foreseeable future, who need to be shaped and formed.
Part of the problem today is that when we did FRP and its realted reductions in the 1990s we fired all the long-term HR planners. So people who looked and saw all their Capt positions were filled said "No problem", instead of noticing that their Capts were aging badly and there was no pool coming up behind them.
Promotion rates in 08/09 for certain ranks and trades are alarming; the experience deficit is getting larger. Interesting times, to say the least.
- Reaction score
- 5
- Points
- 430
Marshall said:
The CF wants enough officers.
Keep in mind it's a double-edged sword. The last really big surge for the combat arms was in the early and mid 1980s, and many of those officers have now or are releasing at 20 and 25 years of service, which has compounded the usual attrition rates. Because of the cyclical nature of these surge intakes, the chances of advancement changes with the size of the cohort you are part of. If you consider that each generation (of a few years breadth) must produce a generation of generals, any one officer's chances are (proportionally) better in a recruiting period of small intakes. In periods of large intakes, the bar may seem lower to get in the door, but it's also proportionally higher at each successive advancement checkpoint with larger numbers of officers competing for each level of promotion. A given officer who may progress within a lean recruiting era cohort may simply miss the numerical windows within a strong cohort. Large recruitment cohorts produce large numbers of staff Captains and Majors because they have the relative population density to fill those billets and still provide their contribution to the promotion stream. But those officers all age together and the bulk of them may release within a similar spread of years. And the cycle begins anew.
So, while you may have glorious visions of going over the top, sword in hand, you should also read this.
And if you're fated to be a captain, it's not so bad:
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Michael O`Leary said:The CF wants enough officers.
Keep in mind it's a double-edged sword. The last really big surge for the combat arms was in the early and mid 1980s, and many of those officers have now or are releasing at 20 and 25 years of service, which has compounded the usual attrition rates. Because of the cyclical nature of these surge intakes, the chances of advancement changes with the size of the cohort you are part of. If you consider that each generation (of a few years breadth) must produce a generation of generals, any one officer's chances are (proportionally) better in a recruiting period of small intakes. In periods of large intakes, the bar may seem lower to get in the door, but it's also proportionally higher at each successive advancement checkpoint with larger numbers of officers competing for each level of promotion. A given officer who may progress within a lean recruiting era cohort may simply miss the numerical windows within a strong cohort. Large recruitment cohorts produce large numbers of staff Captains and Majors because they have the relative population density to fill those billets and still provide their contribution to the promotion stream. But those officers all age together and the bulk of them may release within a similar spread of years. And the cycle begins anew.
So, while you may have glorious visions of going over the top, sword in hand, you should also read this.
And if you're fated to be a captain, it's not so bad:
Good link. I am not joining the Combat Arms family solely for the chance to fight. It just seems more of the getting out and doing things area.
As for hitting the wall at Captain (which I am sure is not that bad...), I will worry about that down the road.. far down the road ;D
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 160
Old Seat and DA got it right on the head, we need Capt's, so hire lots of young'uns and hopefully down the road we will have enough that stick around! Sucks if you don't get troop time, but we need staff officers too! Oh just as a side note old sweat, we have 2 LdSH(RC) Officers that are going to 1 PPCLI to fill voids in the LAV Capt roll, both are excellent choices, and both are ex rankers, one a Sgt and one an SSM!
Yes remaining a Capt is not so bad, 10 incentives!
Yes remaining a Capt is not so bad, 10 incentives!
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 27,304
- Points
- 1,160
Rowshambow said:
Good point. We also need to get over our traditional reluctance to give deserving NCOs 'battlefield promotions', as well as make better use of the CFR process. It's an army folks, not a private club.
- Reaction score
- 5,014
- Points
- 1,060
Everytime I see this thread title in unread posts, I think - 'bent over a table' or some such. :blotto:
Sorry, probably the old NCO coming out in me. Now you can go back to the serious discussion. ;D
Sorry, probably the old NCO coming out in me. Now you can go back to the serious discussion. ;D
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
daftandbarmy said:
This is already happening. In the PPCLI we are in the process of CFR several quite senior WOs, and we have a number of junior officers who were in the JR's. I have 25 years in the Regt and I've never seen this high a percentage of CFR and NCM entries as we currently have. This is not just true of the PPCLI: when I was teaching at Foxhole U, I noticed the higher percentage of CFRs and NCM entry Capts in each serial. In one of my syndicates the top candidate was a former Inf Sgt Maj. This is driven to a great extent by the shortages at the Capt/Maj level in the Inf, but it's sustained by the extremely high quality of NCMs we have in our Army. Man for man, the human material is at least as good as any other Army I've seen and probably much better. With the much more liberal and intelligent approach to providing formal higher education today, if a guy CFR's young enough he can probably have similar chances for advancement to any other officer with equal number of years left to serve.
We have to be very careful,though, not to rob Peter to pay Paul. Each sharp, capable young NCO who commissions is one less great WO, Sgt Maj or RSM. Our NCO situation is, if anything, as dismal or worse than our officer situation, so we need to be careful how we cherry pick. Service as a WO must be seen as a respected, honoured and valued path, not just a stepping stone to the Officers' Mess. Without a solid NCO/WO corps we will be useless.
Cheers
pbi
- Reaction score
- 25
- Points
- 430
.....and ALL officers are encouraged/expected to have a Degree.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 160
The only problem with the CFR program is that you can be a MCpl, but usually at least a Sgt to go the CFR route and also must have 10 years experience, and UTPNCM, although you can be a Cpl or higher, you have to do school first, so you lose the SA of whats going on right then on the battlefield and way of doing things can change in 4 years. The best program for getting soldiers into the job right away is the CEOTP, which you can also do as a Cpl, but you do you training right away and get the degree "while working on your own". This way it does not deplete the Snr Ncm ranks as a typical CFR program might.
Similar threads
