New MH Announcement

[Ex-Dragoon]

I doubt they will make a large change such as deleting the ramp as it would require a great deal of re engineering, testing, and retooling. Why would you want to lose the ramp and the utility it brings? Additionally deleting it would probably change the CG, and with the tight delivery schedule they do not have tons of breathing room before they incur penalties.  

Just my opinion. And Inch is right no one will really know till we take delivery.

Have you ever seen what goes in an ASW helicopter. They are crammed full, not too mention loosing the ramp will make the helo more watertight. very useful to have for a helicopter deployed on a ship don't you think?

 

[Inch]

A ramp is not a major requirement for Naval helos, and considering that the Naval EH101s we were going to get didn't have ramps while the SAR ones were going to have them, I don't think it's that big of a problem.  Not to mention the fact that as I stated before, these things only exist on paper anyway so as far as CofG is concerned they haven't even put in the ASW equip yet or the torps.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/mhp/docssor_e.html

Here's the official requirements, a ramp is not part of the requirements, therefore I'd be very surprised if it came with one.

Cheers

Ex-Dragoon, you posted while I was typing, very good point on being watertight, I forgot about that very nice little feature.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

LOL what can I say I am a sailor and we notice things like that.

 

[Inch]

;D I believe it.

 

[Garbageman]

I heard a rumour that they were going to drop the AESOP position and replace them with a second Nav in the Cyclones.  Anyone know if there's any truth to this?

 

[Inch]

Where did you hear that? I'm sure the AESOps here in Shearwater would be a little shocked to hear that.

 

[Garbageman]

From an old CH-124 driver.  I just read through the bid docs though, and it calls for a TACCO and an AESOP, so that quashes that one.

 

[Inch]

Ex-Dragoon, I just re-read the bid requirements and it was mentioned on the pilot forum as well as guys around Sqn, the bid was for the new bird to carry 2 x Mk46, no talk of 4 so if I were a betting man, I'd say we'll see 2 x Mk46.

Cheers

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Ah well one was hopeful for 4 again.

 

[Cloud Cover]

From the SOR:

Weapons/Stores

The MH weapons/stores system equipment shall:
Be initially configured to carry two MK 46 torpedoes with the capacity to carry future weapons with a weight up to 1000lbs on each station;
"¢ allow for the upload/download of external weapons/stores while the aircraft has rotors turning;
"¢ provide an armament/stores control and dispensing system;
"¢ have provisions for self defence stores including chaff and flares; and
"¢ have provisions for a general-purpose machine gun (GPMG).
"¢ It is desirable that the MH weapons/stores system includes a remote function select (RFS) capability.


What is the payload weight of the MK46, and is there a lighter version of it, like the ADCAP? And, how many stores statons? I presume 2, but who knows for sure?

Also, don't cancel your swimming lessons:

Maritime Requirements
The MH will operate in a maritime environment where immediate landing sites are unavailable in the event of an aircraft malfunction or emergency condition.  Following an emergency water ditching and shutdown, it is essential that the MH be able to float upright at the surface, for a minimum of two minutes in sea-state three, to allow for egress of the crew and passengers.  It is desirable that the MH has the ability to float upright at the surface after shutdown indefinitely in high seas to permit aircraft recovery.

As far as the rear ramp goes, upon polite inquiry, i was told yesterday by the MHP office that the placement of mission consoles is as of yet undetermined, once that is done, the question of a rear ramp will be decided, probably in favour of not having one at all.  I have a suspicion, founded on nothing concrete, that 28 complete mission kits will not be installed, even if 28 airframes are purchased. 

Collateral the issue of a rear ramp, years ago, I was in a EC130H looking at the "Rivet Fire" system. I was impressed with how modular the system was, and how easy we removed all the gear from the fuselage, consoles, seats and all.  Putting it all back in was a different story, but i am sure that has now changed for the better.  I am wondering if the new chopper will have a similar characteristic- certainly not in the SOR, but it would make sense to have a machine that can be quickly reconfigured for a new mission ... say on the JSS.  Just a thought,  I'm sure has crossed more experienced minds than my own ...

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Just a few points on torpedoes:
1) There is no ADACP version of the MK46 only the MK48 has an ADCAP variant.
2) Weights are as follows Mk46-517 lbs; MK48- 3434 lbs; Mk48 ADCAP- 3695 lbs and the MK50-750lbs.
I am told the navy favours the MK50 to replace the MK46 in a few years.

 

[Spr.Earl]

I know nothing about Torp. but have felt one of the war heads being disposed of in CFAD Dundurn on the demo range what a boom and the shack's just a shaking!!!

Here's a link to the Aussie test of the Mk. 48

Info I got off the net about the Mk50

General Characteristics, MK-50
Primary Function: Air and ship-launched lightweight torpedo
Contractor: Alliant Techsystems, Westinghouse
Power Plant: Stored Chemical Energy Propulsion System
Length: 112 inches
Weight: 750 pounds
Diameter: 12.75 inches
Speed: 40+ knots
Guidance System: Active/passive acoustic homing
Warhead: Approximately 100 pounds high explosive (shaped charge)


http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/gallery/slideshow_010202.shtml#

 

[Inch]

As I stated before, all helos will have mission kit. Given our primary role it's pretty short sighted to not have 28 fully equipped helos. Also add into that the serviceability of the kit and you're running into having serviceable helos without the kit to do their primary job.  Pretty useless to the navy.

The 2 mins is so we have time to get the 6 man raft out of the helo, otherwise we're egressing upside down and in that situation, you're on your own. Hopefully you've got your slimline backpack on or you're SOL wrt to a raft. Before anyone starts knocking the fact that we look out for ourselves when egressing, just try it upside-down underwater in the dark and tell me how easy it is to get yourself out let alone someone who's fighting for air.

Cheers

 

[Cloud Cover]

So it looks like 2 torps is the load, based on the above supplied specs. In either case, [mk 46, mk 50] there's a little extra weight left over for another weapon of some sort, although i can't imagine what else would be carried on an ASW mission outside of a depth charge or small bomb, if you guys even have those anymore. [and i don't know if the Sea King ever carried those, but i'm positive the Tracker did at one point.]

I remember reading somewhere that the two of the three most distinguishing characteristics of the acquisitiuon policies of canadian military hardware are short sightedness and surprise ....... no need to elaborate what the third is.  And, i think only you yourself could answer the hypothetical scenario you posed re: egressing upside down. Even though i was in the navy, and loved being at sea [most of the time], i always feared the possibility of ending up in the drink ... i hate being under water in my own pool, never mind a ditching scenario like you face every time you go up. 

If there are 28 ASW CH148, i guess some other budget is going to foot the bill for a transport airframes for the JSS, or is that just a non-starter? 

 

[Inch]

Whiskey, mmmm , wait what were we talking about?   ;D

There's going to have to be more airframes bought for the JSS's, especially if they're going to be putting 4 helos on each of them.   With 28 aircraft, an 80% serviceability rate is pretty optimistic but that would leave us with 22 serviceable on any given day, 6 on the west coast, 8 at 423 Sqn and 8 at the training unit (406), there really isn't enough to outfit 2 JSS's.

The "future" weapons could be missiles, similar to what the Lynx's carry in the UK, something like the AGM-119 Penguin.

Cheers

 

[Spr.Earl]

The 2 mins is so we have time to get the 6 man raft out of the helo, otherwise we're egressing upside down and in that situation, you're on your own. Hopefully you've got your slimline backpack on or you're SOL wrt to a raft. Before anyone starts knocking the fact that we look out for ourselves when egressing, just try it upside-down underwater in the dark and tell me how easy it is to get yourself out let alone someone who's fighting for air.

Cheers

Inch I know were you are coming from.
In order for me to retain my Marine Engineers ticket I have to go through Survival at Sea Training (its International Law now even in Canada),granted it's in a pool and I do know what it's like to try and up right a 25 man raft !!
Yes folk's it's a bitch

I think the only Helo under water egress training is still down your way,I don't think we have one here on the left coast yet.
But I would like to give it ago.

Whats your survival at sea training like?

 

[Inch]

You're right, Survival Systems out here in Dartmouth. Rollover underwater egress training (RUET or dunker as we call it) is done by a civvie company, they do all the rotary wing dunker courses for the CF as well as all the oil rig crews.  I've been told it costs about $5000 to put each one of us through the course, it's only 2 days, classes in the morning and a total of 14 dunks plus dinghy drills and the plunge of death! The plunge is preceded by climbing up the cargo net in full flying gear (immersion suits, LPSVs and helmets), man I didn't realize that climbing up those bloody nets was such a pain in the arse.  Given the price of it, I would think most units aren't very eager to send their guys on the course.

The biggest killer in underwater rollovers is guys getting disoriented, panicing and not being able to get out the exit.  We carry emergency breathing bottles (EBS), you've got 1 EBS bottle in your LPSV and 1 in your slimline backpack which also has a single man raft. They'll give you about 30 sec of air, enough to get out of the chopper and that's it.

The Sea Survival course is done at CFSSAR in Comox. It's 5 days for pilots, not sure how often we have to do it. You do all the drills static, then they take you out into the Strait of Georgia and do drag n' drops (simulating being dragged by your parachute harness and how to get out of it after water entry), then another day you do 1 drag n' drop followed by a few hours in single man life rafts.  You also do 10 man life rafts for a few hours on another day, making water with those reverse osmosis pumps, you know, those bloody things that you've got to pump about 1000 times to get a gulp of water out of. All in all, it can be a very relaxing course or a course filled with sea sickness depending on the sea state since we do it regardless of the sea state. You're right, even flipping a 10 man raft over while wearing your immersion suit, LPSV and helmet can be a real pain.

Cheers

For those of you that are wondering what an LPSV is, it's your life vest/survival vest.

 

[Spr.Earl]

"RUET or dunker as we call it is done by a civvie company, they do all the rotary wing dunker courses for the CF as well as all the oil rig crews"

I thought so,as I know quite a few marine eng. who work on the Rigs down East and they have too be RUET qual because they have to fly out by Helo to the Rigs.
Same in the U.K.

But being a Merchant Seaman by Civie trade,it's a hell of a lot easier for us to jump in if we can get away,but after what you have just told us my hat is off too you and your Crew and all those still flying the old girl .
May your Gods keep you safe.

 

[Inch]

Thanks.  I hope someone is looking out for me. 

It really is invaluable training, there's divers in the pool so that if you get hung up someone is there to stuff a regulator in your mouth, then you try again until you can get out on your own, the company is also really helpful too in that if we want to go through a few dunks before heading out for a deployment they'll put us through as many as we want until we're comfortable.  They're working on a cold water pool to do dunks in as well.  Getting out of the helo is tricky enough let alone doing it with cold water shock so it'll be good training. 

As you know that's the military way, we fly in immersion suits, LPSVs and helmets, we do RUET training every 5 yrs and dinghy drills every year.  Always preparing for the worst day of your life so that you can live to fight another day.

Cheers

 

[Inch]

Instead of starting a new thread I thought I'd just add on to this one.

Sikorsky is bringing an S-92 up here next week, not sure if it'll be at the airshow or not but they're taking all the aircrew for rides on the 9th & 10th.  I'll pass on my thoughts after my initial flight in the future Cyclone.

Cheers