• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

New CDS Gen. Jonathan Vance (split fm CDS spec thread)

Interesting quote :
Boyle was appointed the Chief of Defence Staff in January 1996, at the relatively young age of 48, being chosen ahead of more senior officers who were expected to be picked for the job.[9] General Lewis MacKenzie later described Boyle's ascension, noting that he was "obviously out of his depth as [Chief of Defence Staff]".
WIKI

Sounds like a familiar theme.  :)
 
Boyle lost any respect he would have had from me when he threw his subordinates under the bus and blamed them for things that went wrong.  Compared to Boyle, Lawson was stellar.
 
jollyjacktar said:
Boyle lost any respect he would have had from me when he threw his subordinates under the bus and blamed them for things that went wrong.  Compared to Boyle, Lawson was stellar.

He lost respect of many well before that.  His inspection of an Honour Guard in full DEU while he was in short sleeve order, was a slap in the face to many.  To have not taken a couple of minutes to don a tunic should not have been a problem.  To some it may have been a small thing.  To others it was disrespectful.
 
George Wallace said:
He lost respect of many well before that.  His inspection of an Honour Guard in full DEU while he was in short sleeve order, was a slap in the face to many.  To have not taken a couple of minutes to don a tunic should not have been a problem.  To some it may have been a small thing.  To others it was disrespectful.

There were many things wrong with that man, yes.  The bus throwing was one thing that came to mind.  I will, however, give him a nod on one item.  He did want to try and get a very decent raise in pay accomplished (which would of course benefitted him as well...)  By the time he was done, I thought of him as another type of "boil" that needed to be lanced from the organization.
 
George Wallace said:
He lost respect of many well before that.  His inspection of an Honour Guard in full DEU while he was in short sleeve order, was a slap in the face to many.  To have not taken a couple of minutes to don a tunic should not have been a problem.  To some it may have been a small thing.  To others it was disrespectful.

His CWO should have ensured the CDS was properly turned out unless the CDS chose to ignore his CWO.
 
Hamish Seggie said:
His CWO should have ensured the CDS was properly turned out unless the CDS chose to ignore his CWO.

So that's what the Command Sargeant Major does.  :eek:  I often wondered what his job was.  Apparently in the US Army he is also a part time fashion designer.

Back in the bad old days CDS would have had a batman at a fraction of the cost or even a personally employed valet.

 
 
Hamish Seggie said:
His CWO should have ensured the CDS was properly turned out unless the CDS chose to ignore his CWO.

He would have also had an EA or PA traveling with him, along with the Base Visits Officer........ >:D
 
Crantor said:
So the last one was General Henault.  What was the issue with him?

Ray Henault was CO 444 Squadron for the last two of my years there. He was despised by almost everybody. He would contradict his own direction, written as well as verbal, as if he'd never issued it in the first place. He cancelled or cut back valid training activities in favour of photo-op type stuff that would make himself look good. This was his one-and-only Kiowa posting, and he clearly had no knowledge of how we should operate, and he never, to the best of my knowledge, ever participated in a single mission during an exercise. While he would initially come across as a nice, friendly guy ("Bob Newhart"), we quickly learned to watch our backs. Nothing competes with clueless leadership-from-behind coupled with petty vindictiveness.

During the last day or two prior to his outgoing change-of-command parade, the Squadron Sergeant-Major remarked to one of the other Pilots (who had a rubber Mickey Mouse stamp that used to get applied to a lot of Henault's documents) that "I didn't know that everybody hated him so much". I didn't know that it wasn't blatantly obvious.

Indeed, we could feel a huge weight being lifted during those last couple of days.

I spent those evenings sitting on my balcony, enjoying the sun, leisurely sipping Weizenbier, and lovingly honing my sword.

It was very therapeutic, but also, were I to go berserk in the heat (or something) during the parade, I wanted to make sure that I didn't screw anything up.
 
Hate to say it, but, most of the decent (Prince John excepted) CDS seem to have been Pongos.
 
jollyjacktar said:
Hate to say it, but, most of the decent (Prince John excepted) CDS seem to have been Pongos.


I've served under some excellent Air Force leaders ... unfortunately the two who I regard as "best" were both RAF, not RCAF.

I think that Navy and Army service might offer more opportunities for young officers to test (and be corrected on) and develop their leadership techniques, but I can assure you that, after a long career, I found good and bad in all services. One very senior officer, and a very good leader and manager I hasten to add, told me that the toughest two jobs he ever had were his first tour as a sub lieutenant on a warship and, later, command of a ship; everything else, he said, including multiple stars and plenty of pressure, was easier than those two jobs. I'm inclined to agree with him ... I just wish I had learned the valuable lessons from those jobs faster and better. ;)
 
Loachman:
....leisurely sipping Weizenbier, and lovingly honing my sword.....

.....but also, were I to go berserk in the heat (or something) during the parade ....
by charging and skewering MM ....
 
E.R. Campbell said:
I've served under some excellent Air Force leaders ... unfortunately the two who I regard as "best" were both RAF, not RCAF.

I think that Navy and Army service might offer more opportunities for young officers to test (and be corrected on) and develop their leadership techniques, but I can assure you that, after a long career, I found good and bad in all services. One very senior officer, and a very good leader and manager I hasten to add, told me that the toughest two jobs he ever had were his first tour as a sub lieutenant on a warship and, later, command of a ship; everything else, he said, including multiple stars and plenty of pressure, was easier than those two jobs. I'm inclined to agree with him ... I just wish I had learned the valuable lessons from those jobs faster and better. ;)

I believe that one of the worst jobs in the RCN is to be a Subbie MARS officer.  They're beasted by the CO and XO on down while they are learning the ropes.  More screws are put to them than a poor soul being interrogated by the Spanish Inquisition.  I can agree 2000% it would have been tough.  The same as being the old man.  Lots of weight on the shoulders and they only usually get one crack at the seat as there's too many bums for too few seats so you really have to had earned your way there. 

I have had old men that I would follow into the gates of hell and back, I've also had some I would have gleefully shown the gates if given the chance...
 
I, like many, most,? combat arms officers absolutely had a blast as a subaltern. I worked hard, always went to the back of the meal line, made sure I was at least as wet and cold and miserable as my troops and kept cheerful during the whole thing. As luck would have it, I had more than my share of really good battery commanders, and one pig who took on a hate for me. That got me posted to HQ 4 CIBG where I got an accelerated promotion to captain after only just under six years of commissioned service.

Maybe my best day ever in my service was when one of my battery commanders, who was being posted, paid for a ton of beer in the wet canteen. He gave the obligatory semi-sincere speech about wishing the troops well and hoping they prospered. At this point, one of the more mouthy troops - he had a SN number for the old hands - shouted "We'll be ok as long as they don't post 'Old Sweat'." The rest of the battery cheered and clapped.
 
jollyjacktar said:
Hate to say it, but, most of the decent (Prince John excepted) CDS seem to have been Pongos.

Because they refuse to choose sailors most of the time.  Anderson was the last and he was in tough due to the Airborne affair.  Really just thrown in to be thrown out.  Maybe its the truth to power issues, sailors in Canadian history have a tendency to stick up for their element more than it healthy....



 
Underway said:
Because they refuse to choose sailors most of the time.  Anderson was the last and he was in tough due to the Airborne affair.  Really just thrown in to be thrown out.  Maybe its the truth to power issues, sailors in Canadian history have a tendency to stick up for their element more than it healthy....
I wouldn't read that much into it. Maddison was the navy's most recent real hope for the job, and he went down over the issue of contradicting the Senate vis-a-vis royalization (a waste of a good officer, but it suggests he wouldn't have played well at the political level). McFadden left his job early for personal reasons, the RCN needed another year or two of Norman to dial down the "flag churn" after Maddison and McFadden's short tenures (keep your eye on that space though), and Donaldson, as Vice, flatly declined to be considered for the job when Lawson was picked up. Prior to that, Robertson can't have been seriously on anyone's radar, MacLean's time didn't really align, and anyone who thinks Buck would have been better than Hillier has problems a web forum post isn't going to fix  ;D

The RCN will get a CDS when we produce the right person at the right time. Frankly, the RCAF and CA have played the timing game better than we have.
 
I think Bob Davidson would have been an outstanding choice as CDS.  One of, if not the finest naval officer with whom I have ever had the pleasure to serve.

I also think Larry Murray got thrown under the bus by the government.  A truly honourable man, he was at one point essentially CDS, VCDS and DCDS all at the same time, yet they never had the decency to make him a full admiral.  The trouble is that in Canada, if the government is looking for a scapegoat, you'd best not be an admiral named Murray...
 
As I have mentioned before, we had a saying in the mid-eighties where choosing a CDS is concerned:

"If you want good leadership, pick a general; good administration, pick an admiral; good politics, pick an Air Force general."

Retired general Hillier almost choked on his coffee when I told him that one a few years ago and told me: "You have no idea how true that is". I believe that this is a reflection of the element we come from.

There is no doubt in my mind that by its very nature, the army develops in their general officers leadership skills that are at the summum of human leadership. Commanding large formations of soldiers motivated to fight while only glimpsing their "general" from afar occasionally and hearing only a very few of his actual words, if ever, requires no less.

Navies, on the other hand, are extremely complex industrial undertakings. Anyone walking about the Dockyard can see that. Navies were dealing with engineering, naval architecture and worldwide communications/command and control of forces issues when armies were still marching by foot or horses, on their stomach, and carrying their "command" element to make all the decisions locally. Lord Nelson was the hero of Trafalgar, but everyday, he sat at his sea desk with his secretary to work through piles (already) of "correspondence", which even then could have included anything from authorizing a captain to exceed his allowance for local purchase, to suggesting a modification to the design of some part of the ships, to reporting to the Lord admirals on his next plans for pursuit of the enemy. As a result, navies know the importance of good administration (and in my experience, on average, Navy units always came out better than Air Force and Army ones when administrative reviews or inspections are carried out ).

As for the Air Forces, regardless of the fact that they put together squadrons, wings and groups, it remains that in effect they fight either alone or in small elements, with a distinct divide between the flyers, in their officers world, and the ground support crew living in the non-commissioned world. Thus, they are part of a fragmented type of organization, hence their love of functional command (fighters, transport, patrol, etc. each flying in the same area under different commanders) which is abhorrent to Army and Navy who prefer geographic command. Since little distinguishes one pilot from another, failing a war where you make Ace, their career progression must rely on their interpersonal skills, hence the good "politics", which is used here in its wider human sense than political parties.

This said, I think it accounts for the lack of admirals as CDS. Good administration doesn't get you noticed. It is one of those things that, done right is invisible, and is only remarkable when you screw it up in a big way. Add to that the fact that the Navy is the "silent" service, skill it developed as it knows that it can lose wars, but it cannot win them*, and you have all the ingredients to be passed over regularly even if you have all the skills for CDS.
 
*: Nelson won at Trafalgar, but it was Wellington who beat Napoleon at Waterloo that ended the war. The longest battle of WWII was the Battle of the Atlantic, from day one to day last, but it was the massed armies of the allies that defeated Hitler. The RN quarantined the Falklands and cut off Argentinian supplies, but it was the soldiers and Marines of the U.K. that reconquered them. In each of those cases (and countless more) the Navy won its battle but it didn't defeat the enemy -the Army did. Had the Navy lost those battles, however, the enemy would have won in all cases.     
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
As I have mentioned before, we had a saying in the mid-eighties where choosing a CDS is concerned:

"If you want good leadership, pick a general; good administration, pick an admiral; good politics, pick an Air Force general."

Retired general Hillier almost choked on his coffee when I told him that one a few years ago and told me: "You have no idea how true that is". I believe that this is a reflection of the element we come from.

There is no doubt in my mind that by its very nature, the army develops in their general officers leadership skills that are at the summum of human leadership. Commanding large formations of soldiers motivated to fight while only glimpsing their "general" from afar occasionally and hearing only a very few of his actual words, if ever, requires no less.

Navies, on the other hand, are extremely complex industrial undertakings. Anyone walking about the Dockyard can see that. Navies were dealing with engineering, naval architecture and worldwide communications/command and control of forces issues when armies were still marching by foot or horses, on their stomach, and carrying their "command" element to make all the decisions locally. Lord Nelson was the hero of Trafalgar, but everyday, he sat at his sea desk with his secretary to work through piles (already) of "correspondence", which even then could have included anything from authorizing a captain to exceed his allowance for local purchase, to suggesting a modification to the design of some part of the ships, to reporting to the Lord admirals on his next plans for pursuit of the enemy. As a result, navies know the importance of good administration (and in my experience, on average, Navy units always came out better than Air Force and Army ones when administrative reviews or inspections are carried out ).

As for the Air Forces, regardless of the fact that they put together squadrons, wings and groups, it remains that in effect they fight either alone or in small elements, with a distinct divide between the flyers, in their officers world, and the ground support crew living in the non-commissioned world. Thus, they are part of a fragmented type of organization, hence their love of functional command (fighters, transport, patrol, etc. each flying in the same area under different commanders) which is abhorrent to Army and Navy who prefer geographic command. Since little distinguishes one pilot from another, failing a war where you make Ace, their career progression must rely on their interpersonal skills, hence the good "politics", which is used here in its wider human sense than political parties.

This said, I think it accounts for the lack of admirals as CDS. Good administration doesn't get you noticed. It is one of those things that, done right is invisible, and is only remarkable when you screw it up in a big way. Add to that the fact that the Navy is the "silent" service, skill it developed as it knows that it can lose wars, but it cannot win them*, and you have all the ingredients to be passed over regularly even if you have all the skills for CDS.
 
*: Nelson won at Trafalgar, but it was Wellington who beat Napoleon at Waterloo that ended the war. The longest battle of WWII was the Battle of the Atlantic, from day one to day last, but it was the massed armies of the allies that defeated Hitler. The RN quarantined the Falklands and cut off Argentinian supplies, but it was the soldiers and Marines of the U.K. that reconquered them. In each of those cases (and countless more) the Navy won its battle but it didn't defeat the enemy -the Army did. Had the Navy lost those battles, however, the enemy would have won in all cases.   


But Nelson was the only one doing that. Wellington was (in)famous for his acerbic correspondence with Whitwhall over the administrivia that bedevilled both Navy and Army commanders in the early 19th century.
 
Back
Top