NCMs Jacking Up Commissioned Officers

[Jarnhamar]

While NCOs and SNCOs have obviously "over did it" when addressing very Junior officers I've often found an NCOs polite correction in front of other soldiers often resulted in the junior officer feeling disrespected and wrongly "jacked up".

It's not something that needs to be blown out of perportion.  It's a hassle to take a 2LT aside somewhere private away from other soldiers all the time just to tell the guy that his boot laces are hanging out or that his flag is on upside down. THAT draws everyones attention.

An NCO correcting a mistake isn't an NCO trying to embarass a junior officer in front of his or her soldiers.

 

[mover1]

You are a Junior officer awaiting training or on training at a training establishment. That means you are fair game for any instructor to pick you up for any lack of military bearing they see. It happens in battle school it happens in CFSAL  it happens in the fleet school , its just life. 
If it was unjustified, then bring it up to your superiors, and always get the name of those who "wronged you" 
Try to bring  lots of Kleenex for your phase courses. There will be lots of yelling at you by NCMs of all flavours.

BTW are you at work right now surfing the net when you should be learning a second language?
Does your instructor know this?
Should he take you aside or use you as an example as fair warning to all the others in your class?

 

[Franko]

Being an NCO who has instructed on CIC BOQ Courses in the past I have pulled officers aside and sorted them out.

I maintained my composure and addressed the individual in an appropriate manner...Mr or Ms, didn't matter.

Have had a few problems...the persons couldn't get their head around the fact that they were being corrected by a Cpl and attempted to jack me up.  :

That didn't last long. Kept calm and cool, waited for them to end their rant (tears in their eyes to boot) and went straight to the course officer. He read the entire course the riot act and pulled the students aside to be chatted up...by me and himself. Their actions were corrected and the students "Holier than thee" attitude was quickly dealt with as well.

Needless to say...if an NCO pulls you aside with the proper etiquette and trys to correct you, listen. He's not giving you a blast for no good reason. It's a learning point. Take it and remember it. You'll be a better officer for it.

Mind you if he doesn't pull you aside and jacks you up in front of everyone...it had better be for a damn good reason.

My .02

Regards

 

[DBA]

The description is a bit too open ended to offer solid advice. There is a big difference between mentioning a dress and deportment fault in a regular voice and screaming from across the road about standing on the grass. Also matters if they are overstepping their knowledge of the situation. A 'get off the grass' with an invective to a gaggle of troops around a Padre who came by for a planned quick between classes visit is one way I have seen people burn themselves.

Some general dress and deportment advice. Take a look in the mirror before leaving your room each time and check dress and deportment. Scan from top to bottom and then check each side the same way. Before hanging up a jacket or shirt check that all the correct accessories are there and in the right place ready for when you will wear it next. Same for putting away the rest of the uniform after wearing it or doing laundry. Make it presentable then rather than trying to do when rushed latter on. Keep a small stash of spare accessories like bootbands and rank slipons and as you use them replace them in a timely fashion so you allways have spares. Buy more of consumables when the previous one drops below half or 3/4 used. Get a haircut or trim on a regular basis say every 3rd Tuesday for example. There is lots of other advice in this regard but I find those with poor dress and deportment just don't put any effort into it.

 

[Horse_Soldier]

Let's get one thing clear here.  An officer, recruited off the street, who is not yet MOC qualifed, no matter his/her rank, is generally only a commissioned officer because of our wierd and wonderful entry plans whereby we tie rank to pay.  If we didn't have to pay people with certain degrees or career streams more than others, every aspiring officer would be a OCdt until MOC qualified - as it should be.  I was sent to CFOCS as incremental staff as a 2Lt to teach on a BOTC during the summer between my grad from CMR and my posting to my unit.  I had medical officers wearing Capt stripes in my platoon.  I had no hesitation in jacking them up if they required it - as far as I was concerned, those Capt stripes were unearned and only a reflection of pay.  Until such a time as an officer was proven worthy of the commission by completing MOC training, he/she is an aspiring officer in training and should rightly be the subject of correction by NCOs who notice faults.  As long as the jacking up or correction is done with due military courtesy - well, let me put it this way, I had no problems telling a Capt on my BOTC that he looked like a bag of hammers, and he took his medicine like a good little future army doctor.  ;D

Mind you, there was that time I after I joined my unit when I was jacked up by the RSM in front of my troops - but I had earned it.

 

[IPC10]

Please remember that there will also come a time when you have to â Å“correct a faultâ ? of an NCO.  If there is time don't hesitate to ask for guidance from places such as the Coy/Sqn 2i/c, the Adjt.  Its not a lot of fun.

on the lighter side they usually will not tear up as mentioned above...ya know get all misty on ya.... but I do remember a look that one RSM not of my unit gave me when I asked him to leave a building for safety reasons.....right after he had 'jacked-me up' for a dress and deportment issue.

 

[Judy]

I was in the same position a year ago in St-Jean.  Although I did realize that as an un-qualified 2Lt, I hadn't done ANYTHING to really earn any type of respect,  but some of the NCMs there were downright disrespectful.  If I was walking down the hall and an NCM saw me coming, he'd turn his back, pretend to be tying his shoe, refuse to make eye contactetc., just so he wouldn't have to salute me.  Granted, I felt like an idiot a lot of the time being saluted by a 25 year WO, but that's just the nature of the military.

And yes - a lot of us noticed that NCMs would take any opportunity to point out any little wrong-doing.  It seemed like a lot of them had this attitude of "I hate Officers, and I'm going to take this chance to get back at them!"  And yes, I agree that if I was walking down the hall with no epaulettes on or something that was worthy of being mentioned - by all means, mention it.  I AM new in the military and have things to learn..... but some of the things they stopped to pick up on were absolutely ridiculous.

 

[mover1]

Judy give some examples please?

 

[dutchie]

And yes, I agree that if I was walking down the hall with no epaulettes on or something that was worthy of being mentioned - by all means, mention it.   I AM new in the military and have things to learn..... but some of the things they stopped to pick up on were absolutely ridiculous.

Unless you provide specific examples of these 'ridiculous things' you were picked up for, I will be forced to assume that the NCO was right, and 'corrected' a legitimate fault in a completely appropriate manner, and you're merely whining. Why complain about how you were treated and not tell us the specifics? You admit your lack of experience, but expect us to take your word that a MUCH more experienced NCO was wrong, and you and your lack of experience are right, with no clear examples. You're asking a lot.

 

[S McKee]

I was in the same position a year ago in St-Jean.   Although I did realize that as an un-qualified 2Lt, I hadn't done ANYTHING to really earn any type of respect,   but some of the NCMs there were downright disrespectful.   If I was walking down the hall and an NCM saw me coming, he'd turn his back, pretend to be tying his shoe, refuse to make eye contactetc., just so he wouldn't have to salute me.   Granted, I felt like an idiot a lot of the time being saluted by a 25 year WO, but that's just the nature of the military.

And yes - a lot of us noticed that NCMs would take any opportunity to point out any little wrong-doing.   It seemed like a lot of them had this attitude of "I hate Officers, and I'm going to take this chance to get back at them!"   And yes, I agree that if I was walking down the hall with no epaulettes on or something that was worthy of being mentioned - by all means, mention it.   I AM new in the military and have things to learn..... but some of the things they stopped to pick up on were absolutely ridiculous.

It's called earning your stripes. Like you said why should a 25 year WO respect a pup like you? You've only been in since coffee break. Being an officer isn't all about getting salutes and compliments because it's apart of the military, (technically WOs, Snr NCOs and lower ranks pay respect to the rank not the person). Don't take offence, that they don't respect you, realize that YOU have to earn the respect of the men and women under your command, because one day you may have to order them to do something unpleasant: like die. No disrespect but try to look at from the lower decker's point of view? Young officers who go right from high school into university for 4 years or so, get a degree, and somehow all that book readin' makes you a leader of men? Sorry, there's bound to be a little animosity.

 

[Gill557]

I was only jacked publicly by one CWO as a commissioned officer, and that was in the "old" infantry School.   Generally the "good" or "respected" Sgts and WO's corrected Junior officers in private from my experience.    They usually get their expected results as well from my experience.

On the subject of the infantry school, and I'm thinking of CAP as part of that.  What is the style of "correction" that I can look forward too.  I'm just curious since I know most of my CAP instructors are going to be NCO's, and I was wondering what they are going to say to correct me when I F***-up, notice I say WHEN and not IF since everyone F***s something up.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Judy,

Let's try this. We salute the Commission, not the person, until they prove themselves. Without the Commission, you'd be a Private. Take it from there.

 

[DVessey]

It's called earning your stripes. Like you said why should a 25 year WO respect a pup like you? You've only been in since coffee break. Being an officer isn't all about getting salutes and compliments because it's apart of the military, (technically WOs, Snr NCOs and lower ranks pay respect to the rank not the person). Don't take offence, that they don't respect you, realize that YOU have to earn the respect of the men and women under your command, because one day you may have to order them to do something unpleasant: like die. No disrespect but try to look at from the lower decker's point of view? Young officers who go right from high school into university for 4 years or so, get a degree, and somehow all that book readin' makes you a leader of men? Sorry, there's bound to be a little animosity.

I imagine that you'll take my opinion with a grain of salt, as I'm one of those straight-out-of-highschoolers, *and* I go to RMC, but I still think that it's disrespectful to all-out ignore a commissioned officer. What kind of example is it setting anyway? On BOTC, if an officer happens to wander by, whether it's the Div commander or a lost 2Lt and the platoon isn't brought to attention, would the DS not bring down a world of crap on the platoon? And then to see that same DS a few months later ignoring 2Lt's.
Maybe we should be OCdts until fully MOC qualified, what do I know? I'm barely in the system. I do know that this is how the system works now though, and that's what we have to work with.

My two cents, however much you want to take them for...

 

[mover1]

So. We are to stop and all bask in the glory of a 2 Lt on BOTC. Who is probably on the same playing field as the recruits we are teaching.

In the while a training establishment, the order of the day was not to salute anyone lower than the rank of Captain unless you knew that that person was a LT and a part of the staff. The reasoning was that there were just too darn many officers lagging about to salute. We were staff they were students and until they passed their course these officer were considered fodder. It was impractical to salute everyone.

I saw troopers put 2 Lt's in line when it came to courses. Why because of the attitudes of those involved. The Trooper did also have the backing of a Sgt. who fully supported what that trooper did.
( the long of the story is. I provide examples for everyone. Trooper A was tasked to do a change of personnel from a field location to the barracks. "Go take these 5 guys in and get the next five for guard duty. And while your at it get them to fill these 20 jerry cans with water. anyone gives you a hard time I want them here in front of me."
So Trooper A goes with his 5 OCDTs to the shacks and gets the course to fill up the cans with water. Octd B comes out and doesn't understand why he should fill the cans. Its Saturday and his day off he is going back to bed.  Tpr A  tells him politely that its called team work and the quicker it gets done the quicker he can go back to bed.
Octd B slams the door in his face. Tpr A tries the door its locked. He goes to the Barrack warden explains the situation the Barrack warden gives Tpr A the key. Ocdt B tells Tpr A to get his heels together when addressing him Tpr A tells Ocdt B to get his uniform on he is coming with him to see the DS.
Both the Tpr and the Ocdt go to the Field the Octd gets a dressing down  a few extras and the Tpr gets a pat on the back for handling it tactfully.)

 

[Gunner98]

If the OCdts were on a training establishment in the past, they should have been marching in formation and then one high five for them would do fine.  At the time you were not saluting pers below the rank of Capt, some folks included CIL (now CIC), Padres, Med Offrs, Nurses - let's say it became cap badge specific.

There are no ridiculous faults on a training establishment - the OCdts must be an example to the recruits, if they are failing at that then they should expect to be jacked up.

Let's be clear it is the Queen through the Queen's Commission that you are saluting.  Respect the Queen, respect the rank, respect the officer.  On one forum we are complaining about not getting enough exercise on this one its jacking up.  I say return to the good old days of a few laps around the parade square with dummy rounds over our heads, 2Lts and OCdts leading.  If you are not a good example are a bad one.  Get over it.

 

[ex royal now flyer]

It's called earning your stripes. Like you said why should a 25 year WO respect a pup like you? You've only been in since coffee break. Being an officer isn't all about getting salutes and compliments because it's apart of the military, (technically WOs, Snr NCOs and lower ranks pay respect to the rank not the person). Don't take offence, that they don't respect you, realize that YOU have to earn the respect of the men and women under your command, because one day you may have to order them to do something unpleasant: like die. No disrespect but try to look at from the lower decker's point of view? Young officers who go right from high school into university for 4 years or so, get a degree, and somehow all that book readin' makes you a leader of men? Sorry, there's bound to be a little animosity.

There should be no animosity.  Do we not all walk through the doors of the recruiting centre as civilians and make a choice as to what trade, officer or NCM?  In my opinion, we all the have same opportunity when walking into the recruiting centre for the first time.  The choices you make are your decision.  For example, when I joined 18 years ago I joined as a private - because I wanted to, although I qualified for officer.  Though I am now commissioned, I never felt any animosity towards officers when I was a NCM.  Officers do have to set an example to the troops - be it having polished boots, a proper hair cut, or all buttons done up, etc..  If the example is not being set then they deserve to be corrected.  When I was instructing at the BSL, I had no problems correcting OCdts for faults that needed correcting.  It is all part of the training system and all recruits either officer or NCM go through it.  NCMs also have to lead by example.  This means saluting all officers regardless if they have been in since coffee break, a nurse, a doctor, or a PaffO.  It is all part of being professional.  Respect works both ways 

This whole string sounds like a lot of whining.  It must be a reflection of the younger generation who do not like being yelled at for their own mistakes.  Instead of crying about being yelled at or "corrected" why not learn from your mistake and soldier on. 

Just my two cents worth. 

 

[DVessey]

So. We are to stop and all bask in the glory of a 2 Lt on BOTC. Who is probably on the same playing field as the recruits we are teaching.

No, not at all. Jack the ones on BOTC up till the sun comes up. But the 2Lt's in question are on French training.

 

[Horse_Soldier]

No, not at all. Jack the ones on BOTC up till the sun comes up. But the 2Lt's in question are on French training.

So?  Still not MOC qualified and therefore commissioned for pay reasons only.  In a real world, those 2Lts would be Ocdts, but this is the CF fantasy where rank and pay are linked.  Let's not carry the fantasy to the point where non-MOC qualified 2Lts are to be treated by NCOs in the same fashion as the 2Lts in Battalions and Regiments who have completed training and proven they are worthy of the rank.  Until such a time as an officer is fully MOC qualified, he/she remains fair game for correction as he/she is nothing more than an Ocdt who by accident of poor entry and pay scheme design carries a commissioned officer's rank.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

MOD INJECTION

Folks, I'm starting to sense a merry-go-round here, and I get motion sickness, so unless one has something new to add........

 

[elscotto937]

Interesting topic, and for the most part I agree with those who have said polite correction is the way to go. But, I'm not so quick to jump on the " your not qualified...therefore you get what you get" band wagon. Aside from the safety concern, and situations where it is the persons (NCOs) job to correct the officer (i.e. BOTC, Phase 2).
The question I have is, where is the line drawn, if I were to walk down the hall and had obvious deficiencies (Flag on upside down, pants unbloused, etc..) then I would like to be politely corrected. For things relatively minor, scuff on boots, wrinkle in pants... does it need to be said at that time and place... if you think the answer is yes then it can be done politely and respectfully. However, if the NCO is stopping the officer in the hall and telling him his boots are very bad and than he is bag of very bad stuff that is inappropiate, and the matter must me directed to the chain of command. Because the goal is not to make the officer feel like an idiot, but rather to correct his current deficency.