My ideal navy (aka not holding my breath aka not in my wildest dreams)

[Ex-Dragoon]

With all the Talk about LPDs lately from Gen Hillier here is a comparison between 3 of the ones most likely to attract the attention of the people that control the purse strings.

Class(Nation of origin)-                                San Antonio(US)
Dimensions-                                              208.4x31.9x7
Displacement (with full load)-                      25,300
Complement-                                           361
Military Lift-                                              720 troops, 2 LCAC, 14 AAAV
Armament-                                              MK41 VLS (64 ESSM)not fitted, 2xRAM, 2x30mm, 2x12.7mm
Speed/Range-                                          22
Aircraft-                                                  1 CH53 or 2 CH46 or 1 MV22

Class(Nation of origin)-                               Albion(UK)  
Dimensions-                                             176x28.9x7.1                                      
Displacement (with full load)-                     18,500                  
Complement-                                           325                                
Military Lift-                                              305 troops/710 overloaded, 67 vehicles, 4 LCVP or 2 LCAC (in well dock)/4
                                                             LCVP on  davits
Armament-                                              2x20mm, 2 Goalkeeper(30mm) CIWS                                          
Speed/Range-                                          20/8,000 nm at 15 kts                                    
Aircraft-                                                   3 Sea King (Chinook capable)
*built to military standards

Class(Nation of origin)-                                 Galicia (Spain)                    
Dimensions-                                               160x25x5.9                  
Displacement (with full load)-                       13, 815              
Complement-                                             115                                        
Military Lift-                                                543 Troops, 6 LCVP+4 LCM, 130 APC or 33 Tanks                          
Armament-                                                1 20mm Meroka CIWS, 2x 20mm Oerlikon
Speed/Range-                                            20/6,000 nm at 12 kts                                    
Aircraft-                                                     6 AB212 or 3 Sea Kings
*built to commercial standards

 

[NCRCrow]

How we can we intergrate this sealift from the inland Brigades?

Marine Type Base?

Maybe Shearwater to a Joint-Air/Land/Sea Base-move the infantry

 

[Cloud Cover]

It seems the LPD17 would not support they type of heldet Hillier is interested in. [actually, none of these ships are capable of say.. 2 Chinooks and 3 or 4 Griffons]

With all of those ships, the ground pounders are going to be very tightly packed when you consider the vast amount of personal gear they have to haul around these days.

Why the large difference in compliment between the Galicia and the Albion? Is this how the Spanish are cramming more troops and vehicles into a ship 15 percent less tonnage than the Albion?

Cheers.

 

[George Wallace]

How we can we intergrate this sealift from the inland Brigades?

Marine Type Base?

Maybe Shearwater to a Joint-Air/Land/Sea Base-move the infantry

A Bde complex built at the South End of CFB Gagetown, in the village of Welsford may be a better choice.  Close to the Gagetown Training Areas.  Close to an all season port; St John.  Away from the Combat Arms School and CFB Gagetown infrastructure and not interferring with operations conducted there, other than Range Bookings.  Close to Rail (which have been removed from CFB (G)) and Road systems. 

 

[NCRCrow]

Thats the future in my mind for Joint ops, lets make the navy/army seamless.

The Aircraft can always fly out to meet us, like the US does.

If u want space and save money, buy a commercial RO-RO, convert it to Army specs.

Let the us (navy) equip it, Sea Sparrow, CIWS, ESM/ECM of course and Radars.

Airforce-convert the top for some Helo's

There u go...sea lift cap.

The Frigates can protect it and we are ready to go.

 

[FSTO]

The Canadian Coast Guard is an invisible entity to the Navy.

Agreed, lets get the Coast Guard online similar to the US. I have 12 years of sea time and maybe worked with them once or twice.

The US Coast Guard has a loaded Spruance, tons of cutters, icebreakers and a full air wing.

lets do it!

I think you may be confused with the Hamilton Class, looks somewhat similar but is smaller in size

 

[NCRCrow]

Hamilton sounds right, they look similiar. I must have gotten them confused.

I read somewhere though (I think Janes) that the USCG was going to get a Spruance for a Blue water cap, and participate in foreign ops. (the Gulf)
(maybe they already have)

 

[Old Sweat]

Re George Wallace's comment on building a brigade camp at Welsford.

Originally, as the army urban legend has it, the plan was to build the Camp Gagetown complex, which was designed as a mobilization base for a division, at Welsford. However the then-Chief of the General Staff of the Canadian Army moved it to Oromocto, after he discovered some people with inside knowledge, both military and civilian, were busily buying up land around Welsford in the hope of making a killing.

Further to the size and layout of the original camp area at Oromocto was designed to allow the rapid construction of temporary accommodation for the division to be deployed to Germany. There is a large network of underground utilities that could have been easily tapped into, and the open sports fields, etc between what were once unit lines would have been built up. All this formed part of the briefing to the VCDS circa 1978-1979 when we were trying to get the CTC complext constructed.

Back to the point, I would have to be convinced of the utility of expanding outside the present base boundaries, but that is a personal gut reaction.

 

[FSTO]

Actually the USCG is getting an entire new group of ships called the "Deepwater Replacement Project"

Deepwater Capability Replacement Project
Source: G-D

The United States Coast Guard is a military, multi-mission, maritime service within the Department of Homeland Security and one of the nation's five armed services. Its core roles are to protect the public, the environment, and U.S. economic and security interests in any maritime region in which those interests may be at risk including international waters and America's coasts, ports, and inland waterways. Deepwater missions typically require a long-term, continuous, on-scene presence, often with deployments away from home stations for several months on end. Deepwater missions also demand the ability to operate in severe environments - from Arctic to tropical and equatorial climates - 24 hours a day, every day, wherever the Coast Guard's humanitarian, law enforcement or military capabilities are needed.

Current Deepwater assets face technological limitations, have excessive operating and maintenance costs, lack essential capabilities in speed, sensors, and interoperability, and consequently limit overall effectiveness and efficiency. To continue to meet America's 21st century maritime threats and challenges, the Coast Guard initiated the Integrated Deepwater System (IDS) Program, the largest and most innovative acquisition in the Coast Guard's history.

The focus of this innovative "system of systems" acquisition is not just on new ships and aircraft, but rather on an integrated approach to modernizing existing legacy assets while transitioning to newer, more capable assets, with improved command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (C4ISR) capabilities. Focusing on system-wide capabilities rather than assets, IDS will provide the capability and capacity necessary to contribute to the Coast Guard's maritime domain awareness as well as to meet Maritime Homeland Security missions that could occur in ports, waterways, coastal areas, and extending seaward.

The Coast Guard awarded the Deepwater contract to Integrated Coast Guards Systems (ICGS), a joint venture between Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman, in June 2002. The fully implemented Deepwater system will include three new classes of cutters (Maritime Security Cutter, Large, [WMSL] formerly known as the National Security Cutter; Maritime Security Cutter, Medium [WMSM] formerly known as the Offshore Patrol Cutter; and the Patrol Coastal [WPC], formerly known as the Fast Response Cutter) and their associated small boats - the Short Range Prosecutor (SRP) and the Long Range Interceptor (LRI), a new fixed-wing manned aircraft fleet, a combination of new and upgraded helicopters, and both cutter-based and land-based unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). In addition, all of these assets will be linked with state-of-the art C4ISR capabilities and will be supported by an integrated logistics management system.

 

[NCRCrow]

The utility of having two marine bases would be the realization of rapid deployment capability for real time, diasters and exercises and a J Cap that can move without the ad hoc attitude of Bluebird buses/ SMP vehicles rolling down the 417.

Let's look at CFB Kingston as a departure point for the J Cap. CFJOG and infrastruce already in place.

Make the berths and space avail and lets deploy! (have low mastheads for the locks)

The frigate escorts can meet them in the Gulf of St Lawrence.

Petawawa and Gagetown seem to be a ghost of the CDS's vision.(which I like)

 

[Infanteer]

Good stuff guys - two points:

1.   We all seem to agree that Ex-Dragoon's proposal is far-off in terms of what we can do right now.   But do any of you feel we can start moving into the general direction of that level of Naval capability?   Where would we start?   Perhaps a fantastic idea is easier to digest if we break it down into small parts?

2.   Regarding amphibious based units and seamless integration of naval and land capabilites - I'm a big supporter of this idea and it factors heavily into some work I'm doing right now.   With all the chat on basing "forward" assets, whether it be equipment sets or units, should we also factor the Pacific Ocean as well?

 

[FSTO]

Good stuff guys - two points:

1.  We all seem to agree that Ex-Dragoon's proposal is far-off in terms of what we can do.  But do any of you feel we can start moving into the general direction of that level of Naval capability?  Where would we start?  Perhaps a fantastic idea is easier to digest if we break it down into small parts?

2.  Regarding amphibious based units and seamless integration of naval and land capabilites - I'm a big supporter of this idea and it factors heavily into some work I'm doing right now.  With all the chat on basing "forward" assets, whether it be equipment sets or units, should we also factor the Pacific Ocean as well?

Well, duh!?!?!!?!?!?!

Despite Ottawa's focus to the east, there is a mighty big area to the west that has seen quite a bit of Canadian intrest over the years. But since us westerners have this nasty habit of thumbing our noses at the Natural Governing Party, they closed the one base on the coast that could support the Army, Chilliwack.

Unless you decide to build a base in Vancouver, then Chilliwack is the way to go. Keep the Navy in Esquimalt but when you have to move troops, load them up at the Delta Terminal in Richmond (no choke point at the Lions Gate Bridge and no travel through downtown Vancouver)

 

[Infanteer]

Well, duh!?!?!!?!?!?!

lol - my question was supposed to be a rhetorical "hellooo?" type.    

Despite Ottawa's focus to the east, there is a mighty big area to the west that has seen quite a bit of Canadian intrest over the years. But since us westerners have this nasty habit of thumbing our noses at the Natural Governing Party, they closed the one base on the coast that could support the Army, Chilliwack.

Unless you decide to build a base in Vancouver, then Chilliwack is the way to go. Keep the Navy in Esquimalt but when you have to move troops, load them up at the Delta Terminal in Richmond (no choke point at the Lions Gate Bridge and no travel through downtown Vancouver)

I agree with that.   Chilliwack in itself would be an excellent area, especially if we could get some more training areas.   Considering that it is in the Mountains and has access to even larger mountains, the temperate rainforests of BC (with the potential to train with the Brits in Brunei for jungles), and the Pacific littoral, it would be the perfect base for a Light Force unit that is ready to jump off and deal with scenarios (and terrain) that would pop up throughout much of the Pacific Rim.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I am no naval architect or have any sort of engineer background so if
the following construction times seem to be overly optimistic please
forgive me. For my navy I am not even going to speculate where these
ships will be built (whether here in Canada or abroad) but hopefully
will give you an idea on how we could replace our navy.

2006:
Laid down-
Hull#1 Stretched Type 124 Frigate (AAD Destroyer)
Hull#1 Supply class AOR
Hull#1 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#2 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#1 Ro-Ro
Hull#1 Galicia class LPD

2007:
Laid down-
Hull#2 Stretched Type 124 Frigate (AAD Destroyer)
Hull#3 Stretched Type 124 Frigate (AAD Destroyer)
Hull#3 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#4 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#1 Hospital Ship
Hull#2 Supply class AOR

2008:
Laid down-
Hull#1 MCM
Hull#2 MCM
Hull#3 MCM
Hull#4 MCM
Hull#1 SSK (Type212A or Scorpene)
Hull#2 SSK (Type212A or Scorpene)
Hull#2 Ro-Ro
Hull#3 Ro-Ro
Hull#1 Icebreaker
Hull#2 Galicia class LPD
Launched and fitting out-
Hull#1 Stretched Type 124 Frigate (AAD Destroyer)
Hull#1 Supply class AOR
Hull#1 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#2 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#1 Ro-Ro
Hull#1 Galicia class LPD

2009:
Laid down-
Hull#4 Stretched Type 124 Frigate
Hull#5 Stretched Type 124 Frigate
Hull#5 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#6 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#3 Supply class AOR (class complete)
Hull#4 Ro-Ro
Hull#5 Ro-Ro
Hull#3 SSK (Type212A or Scorpene)
Hull#1 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#2 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#5 MCM
Hull#6 MCM
Hull#7 MCM
Hull#8 MCM
Launched and fitting out-
Hull#2 Stretched Type 124 Frigate (AAD Destroyer)
Hull#3 Stretched Type 124 Frigate (AAD Destroyer)
Hull#3 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#4 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#1 Hospital Ship
Hull#2 Supply class AOR
Commissioned into service-
Hull#1 Stretched Type 124 Frigate (AAD Destroyer)
Hull#1 Supply class AOR
Hull#1 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#2 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#1 Ro-Ro
Hull#1 Galicia class LPD
Retired from Service-
HMCS Iroquois
HMCS Protecteur
HMCS Halifax

2010:
Laid down-
Hull#6 Ro-Ro
Hull#7 Ro-Ro
Hull#6 Stretched Type 124 Frigate
Hull#7 Stretched Type 124 Frigate
Hull#7 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#8 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#3 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#4 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#5 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#4 SSK (Type212A or Scorpene)
Hull#5 SSK (Type212A or Scorpene)
Hull#2 Icebreaker
Hull#3 Galicia class LPD (class complete)
Launched and fitting out-
Hull#1 MCM
Hull#2 MCM
Hull#3 MCM
Hull#4 MCM
Hull#1 SSK
Hull#2 SSK
Hull#2 Ro-Ro
Hull#3 Ro-Ro
Hull#1 Icebreaker
Hull#2 Galicia class LPD
Commissioned into service-
Hull#2 Stretched Type 124 Frigate (AAD Destroyer)
Hull#3 Stretched Type 124 Frigate (AAD Destroyer)
Hull#3 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#4 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#1 Hospital Ship
Hull#2 Supply class AOR
Retired from service-
HMCS Athabaskan
HMCS Algonquin
HMCS Preserver
HMCS Vancouver
HMCS Ville de Quebec

2011:
Laid down-
Hull#9 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#10 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#11 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#8 Ro-Ro
Hull#9 Ro-Ro (class complete)
Hull#9 MCM
Hull#10 MCM
Hull#11 MCM
Hull#12 MCM
Hull#2 Hospital Ship (class complete)
Hull#6 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#7 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#8 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#6 SSK (Type212A or Scorpene)(class complete)
Launched and fitting out-
Hull#4 Stretched Type 124 Frigate
Hull#5 Stretched Type 124 Frigate
Hull#5 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#6 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#3 Supply class AOR (class complete)
Hull#4 Ro-Ro
Hull#5 Ro-Ro
Hull#3 SSK
Hull#1 OPV
Hull#2 OPV
Hull#5 MCM
Hull#6 MCM
Hull#7 MCM
Hull#8 MCM
Commissioned into service-
Hull#1 MCM
Hull#2 MCM
Hull#3 MCM
Hull#4 MCM
Hull#1 SSK
Hull#2 SSK
Hull#2 Ro-Ro
Hull#3 Ro-Ro
Hull#1 Icebreaker
Hull#2 Galicia class LPD
Retired from service-
HMCS Kingston
HMCS Glace Bay
HMCS Nanimo
HMCS Chitcoutimi

2012:
Laid down-
Hull#12 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#13 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#3 Icebreaker (class complete)
Hull#13 MCM
Hull#14 MCM
Hull#15 MCM (class complete)
Hull#9 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#10 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#11 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Launched and fitting out-
Hull#6 Ro-Ro
Hull#7 Ro-Ro
Hull#6 Stretched Type 124 Frigate
Hull#7 Stretched Type 124 Frigate
Hull#7 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#8 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#3 OPV
Hull#4 OPV
Hull#5 OPV
Hull#4 SSK
Hull#5 SSK
Hull#2 Icebreaker
Hull#3 Galicia class LPD
Commissioned into service-
Hull#4 Stretched Type 124 Frigate
Hull#5 Stretched Type 124 Frigate
Hull#5 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#6 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#3 Supply class AOR (class complete)
Hull#4 Ro-Ro
Hull#5 Ro-Ro
Hull#3 SSK
Hull#1 OPV
Hull#2 OPV
Hull#5 MCM
Hull#6 MCM
Hull#7 MCM
Hull#8 MCM
Retired from service-
HMCS Edmonton
HMCS Shawinigan
HMCS Whitehorse
HMCS Yellowknife
HMCS Victoria
HMCS Toronto
HMCS Regina

2013:
Laid down-
Hull#14 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#15 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#16 Type 124 Frigate (class complete)
Hull#12 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#13 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#14 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Launched and fitting out-
Hull#9 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#10 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#11 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#8 Ro-Ro
Hull#9 Ro-Ro
Hull#9 MCM
Hull#10 MCM
Hull#11 MCM
Hull#12 MCM
Hull#2 Hospital Ship
Hull#6 OPV
Hull#7 OPV
Hull#8 OPV
Hull#6 SSK
Commissioned into service-
Hull#6 Ro-Ro
Hull#7 Ro-Ro
Hull#6 Stretched Type 124 Frigate
Hull#7 Stretched Type 124 Frigate
Hull#7 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#8 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#3 OPV
Hull#4 OPV
Hull#5 OPV
Hull#4 SSK
Hull#5 SSK
Hull#2 Icebreaker
Hull#3 Galicia class LPD
Retired from service-
HMCS Goose Bay
HMCS Moncton
HMCS Saskatoon
HMCS Windsor
HMCS Montreal
HMCS Fredricton

2014:
Laid down-
Hull#15 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#16 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#17 OPV(Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)
Hull#18 OPV (Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed)(class complete)
Launched and fitted out-
Hull#12 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#13 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#3 Icebreaker
Hull#13 MCM
Hull#14 MCM
Hull#15 MCM
Hull#9 OPV
Hull#10 OPV
Hull#11 OPV
Commissioned into service-
Hull#9 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#10 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#11 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#8 Ro-Ro
Hull#9 Ro-Ro
Hull#9 MCM
Hull#10 MCM
Hull#11 MCM
Hull#12 MCM
Hull#2 Hospital Ship
Hull#6 OPV
Hull#7 OPV
Hull#8 OPV
Hull#6 SSK
Retired from service-
HMCS Brandon
HMCS Summerside
HMCS Cornerbrook
HMCS Winnipeg
HMCS Calgary
HMCS St. John's

2015:
Launched and fitting out-
Hull#14 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#15 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#16 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#12 OPV
Hull#13 OPV
Hull#14 OPV
Commissioned into service-
Hull#12 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#13 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#3 Icebreaker
Hull#13 MCM
Hull#14 MCM
Hull#15 MCM
Hull#9 OPV
Hull#10 OPV
Hull#11 OPV
Retired from service-
HMCS Charlottetown
HMCS Ottawa

2016:
Launched and fitting out-
Hull#15 OPV
Hull#16 OPV
Hull#17 OPV
Hull#18 OPV
Commissioned into service-
Hull#14 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#15 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#16 Type 124 Frigate
Hull#12 OPV
Hull#13 OPV
Hull#14 OPV

2017:
Commissioned into service-
Hull#15 OPV
Hull#16 OPV
Hull#17 OPV
Hull#18 OPV

*will add names of MCDVs later*

**forgot Amphibs**

 

[Navalsnpr]

I wonder what the price tag would be for that procurement scheme??

God would that would be a good schedule to have!

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Ballpark guess 12-15B....

 

[Navalsnpr]

That's actually pretty good....

Lets get some lotto tickets!

 

[Cloud Cover]

Plus a mighty huuuge annual budget to operate the fleet.    But, hey were a rich country with all sortsa' non-essential luxuries we can apparently afford.    

 

[STONEY]

Not to mention another 20, 000 hairybags.

You know you shouldn't smoke crack . My wildest dreams indeed..

Toodles.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Been awhile, so I figured I would bring you up to date on where my line of thinking is.

Projected Personnel totals:

Ship class          Number in class        Crew per ship    Crew per class
Type 124 AAD                7                          255                  1785
Type 124 FFG                  16                        225                    3600
Type 130 OPV                18                          65                    1170
MCM (Hunt Class)            15                          34                    510
Type 212A SSK                6                          27                    162           
Galicia LPD                        3                          115                  345
Hospital ship                      2                          250                  500
Ro-Ro                                9                            20                  1800
Ice-breakers (Healy class)      3                          70                  210

Total:                                79                                            10,082

the numbers aren't perfect but it gives a rough idea. Don't forget you will have crew on leave, courses, sick etc. So figure on a navy with a TES of maybe 11-12,000.