My ideal navy (aka not holding my breath aka not in my wildest dreams)

[Ex-Dragoon]

I believe there should be an expeditionary force on each coast. Consisting of the following:
1 Amphib (with up to 8 heavy lift helos and 4 utility/armed helos)
1 AOR (2 helos)
1 Ro Ro
1 AAD Destroyer (2 helos)
3 FFHs (1 helo per ffh)
1 SSK

In addition we should have a sovereignty/training force (coastal) which can rotate units out of the expeditionary force. This will also have one per coast. This would consist of the following:
4 MCMs (if need be MCDVs)
1 AAD (2 helos)
2 FFHs (1 helo per unit)
5 OPVs
1 SSKs

Units on Independent Ops...used to form additional TGs, single ship deployments and augment any units requiring reinforcement:
1 AOR (2 helos)
1 Ro-Ro
2 AAD (2 helos each)
4 FF (1 helo each)
4 MCM
4 OPVs
1 SSK

Drydocked units or units thats have just returned from deployments and units undergoing maintenance and upgrades. This is what I would like to see combined for both coasts:
1 Amphib
2 RO-RO
1 AOR
1 AAD
2 FFHs
1 SSK
3 MCMs
4 OPVs
1 ICEBREAKER

Emergency Response Force. On each coast:
1 Hospital ship (helipad)
2 Ro-Ro (helipad)
1 ICEBREAKER (helipad)

So my magic wand would give us a fleet of:
Amphibious-3
AORs- 3    [Berlin class] changed to Supply class
Ro-Ros- 9
AAD Destroyers- 7   [stretched Type 124 frigate with 48 SM2s vice 24 modified for Flag Staff]
FFH-16    [Type 124 frigate]
SSKs-6   [if we can't get the Upholders functioning then Type 212A or Scorpenes]
OPVs-18   [Type 130 Corvette with RBS15 removed]
MCMs-15    
Hospital Ships- 2
ICEBREAKERS- 3 (armed with 76 mm and 2 20mm Oerlikons)
Naval aviation- ASW Helos-32 (6 additional for attrition)
                    - utility/armed-8   (2 additional for attrition)
                    - heavy lift- 16 (4 additional for attrition)

Quite the wishlist but I think it would give us what we need to be a major player like the government wants us to be. Now some notes.
Expeditionary Forces-1)   I have 3 FFHs. I would have 1 detached from that force with its towed array sonar constantly streamed to alert of any sub threat.
2) The Ro-Ro would be used to carry supplementary comsumables (i.e fuel. food and ammo for the landing force)
3) The Amphib could be any class but I would hope it could carry at least 500-750 men landing force with vehicles and organic helos.
4) Command....the escort and fighting strength would be commanded from the AAD. The landing contingent from the Amphib.
5) SSKs would be fitted with AIP
6) ERF would be kept at extended readiness and be deployed on an as needed situation.

Coastal Force 1) OPVs and MCMs as patrol units would be the organized units. FFH and AADs would be there to provide heavier firepower if needed.

Independents Ops 1) Usually deployed with coalition or allied navies, on UN or NATO ops. Escorts for ERF.

Drydocked units-1)   rough guess probably much smaller.
2) Units not used would be placed in Independent Ops or the Coastal Force.

Emergency Response Force- 1) used for DART type missions, humanitarian or all out war.
                                        2) Icebreaking and northern support ops.

EDIT: This post will be moodified as I come up with different ideas.
a) Yeah I know the edit has a lot of German equipment but having worked with the Germans and been on their ships all I can say is awesome.
b) Changed Berlin class to Supply class with comparison to show why in following post
c) 20 mm Oerlikons can be replaced with 25 mm Bushmasters to allow greater flexibility when operating with USN units.
d) Icebreakers fitted with 76mm to help break up bergs and to disloge any possible Danish errm I mean anyone trying to lay claim to our Northern islands.

 

[Cloud Cover]

That is a heavy hitting fleet. Why so many MCM's and Ro-Ro's? And, are all of these ships fleet units crewed by the mob?

I like the DG to FFH ratio- roughly 2:1.

Are the AOR's large - ala Lewis and Clark?   

 

[TCBF]

I like your fleet, but one phrase comes to mind - "Not necessarily conscription, but conscription if necessary."  You would have to press-gang the crews.  Rum, Buggery, and The Lash just doesn't have that much appeal any more.  "The lower classes are not joining with their usual a l a c r i t y." (Apologies to "Billy Bishop Goes To War").

Tom

 

[Torlyn]

My ideal Navy?  Has me in it as a MARS officer. 

T

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

That is a heavy hitting fleet. Why so many MCM's and Ro-Ro's? And, are all of these ships fleet units crewed by the mob?

I like the DG to FFH ratio- roughly 2:1.

Are the AOR's large - ala Lewis and Clark?    

Hey Whiskey,
  My reasoning for so many MCMs is I strongly feel in the future mine warfare will be even more prevalent and I feel its far better to be proactive rather then reactive.
  The RO-ROs and the Hospital ships I think could be manned by a combined civillian crew under contract from DND and naval reserves backed by a few reg force types. For the most part only 3-5 RO-ROs will be operational at any one time. AORs I was looking for or less at the new Berlin class the German navy is using.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

                      Berlin class vs Supply Class

Complement-        139 plus 94 staff        176 civillian and 27 military
Speed                    20                                22
Fuel                      9540 tons                156000 barrels (not sure how many tons that is)
Ammo                    160 tons                  1800
General Cargo          280 tons                  250 tons
Water                    450 tons                  20, 000 gallons
Refridgerated cargo  unknown                400 tons

*from Janes Fighting Ships

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

I'm so glad you posted this....despite the redundancy of many of my questions, this is exactly what I was trying to ascertain.

Thanks so much,



Matthew. 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Canadianization of my wishlist ships:

Type 130 Corvette:
-RBS15 removed
-76 mm replaced by 57mm Bofors
-27mm Mausers replaced by 20 mm Oerlikons
-fitted for but not with CIWS
-helipad only

Type 212A  or Scorpene class SSK:
-modifed for MK48 ADCAPs
-special ops configuration

Type 124 frigate and Type 124 stretched variant destroyer:
-1 helo vice 2 in FFG version; 2 for DDG version
-frigate 57 mm; destroyer 76mm> 5 inch guns
-replace 27mm mauser with 20mm Oerlikon
-remove 1 RAM replace with phalanx

Any other mods I thought of are listed in brackets in my first post.

 

[Cloud Cover]

The more I think about this model, the more concerned I am with the critical requirement that the boundaries of "sense" and "engage" for some of the major surface warfare ships outperform current systems, andindeed, the rest of the fleet. To me, a high volume mixed capability of medium and ER weapons would be essential for AAW. Those systems ought not to come at the expense of PDMS and CIWS on each platform. Small caliber naval guns would also be fitted for close protection only.

For this purpose, I would like to see a few DDG [3] as low in the water high speed missile batteries, and I would go so far as to suggest such a ship dispense with the hanger and go with a simple pad of the least possible size. I would keep the superstrucure to an absolute minimum. I am envisioning a vessel of around 7500 tons, and a battery of between 96-128 silo's. In essence, a mini Kirov.

I think Alpha Whiskey and Alpha Echo would hang their hat on this class of ship, other than that there would not be a command responsibility assigned.      

Cheers.

     

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

You thinking along the lines of the Arsenal Ship concept for AAD?

 

[Cloud Cover]

Yep, but the differences would also be glaring.

Unlike the USN version, "my" ship would sense- track-acquire. It would not rely upon third party targetting, but perhaps might have that capability. [I realize the EW ramifications of this-it's a trade off!] The ship would not have the big gun or the land attack capability provided by the Tomahawk. I think such a ship would give OPFOR much to think about in terms of launching an air attack on a fleet of any size which might be operating without organic air cover. I must admit that I stole that little theory from the Arsenal Ship. It's a pity the USN was forced to drop the program. Perhaps with the recent budget cuts to the USN, the ship might be resurrected.

This would be a ship defined principally by it's defensive capability yet it would still project a virtually unparalleled "presence" in theatre.

Without a doubt, it would require a reliable ASW escort- ala CPF. 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Mybe my proposed Type 124s stretched could be give a Tomahawk capability as well. All the above would definitely have Harpoon II.

 

[Infanteer]

I like that Ex-D.  You know why - Joint Ops! 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I am curious about something from the community that wears green. Is it preferable to have missiles like Tomahawks and Harpoon II or would you prefer cannon fire 3-5" or even the 155mm some navies are trialing?

 

[Infanteer]

Probably both.  Ideally, I would like my Artillery support to have both Guns and Rockets.  The ability of Ship launched cruise missiles to support land warfare (even if it is just a small team "painting" a target) adds exponential value to the Navy as a branch of strategic projection.  As well, a ship launched missile may be able to come from a direction (or be used at a time) when land or air based platforms are unavailable for "reaching out".

I remember McGregor making an interesting pitch for a joint force "Strike Officer" who cordinated Naval fire (guns and missiles) along with Air Strikes (fixed/rotary wing/UAV), and Army Deep Strike systems (artillery, etc).  Definately "force multiplier" kind of stuff.

 

[NCRCrow]

Training......dry docks.........people.............$$$...........schools..refits...berths........warehouses.......

Great concepts (really) but totally unrealistic with today's current infrastructure on the coasts.

I would like to see Joint Navy/Army ports at Montreal (due to mast head height)for Petawawa and maybe Moncton for Gagetown, where the Army would have a secure established place to load and unload with Barracks, stores, space etc.

Drive up, load up and leave, all in one shot. No yellow school buses rumbling down the jetty with our infantry in it.

I am also a big fan of coastal missile batteries as a force deterrent and psych factor.

Crow

 

[jmacleod]

Agreed - all points of view on an ideal Navy are very valid. The Berlin class German Navy vessels
are indeed impressive, and the inclusion of RO-RO ships a very good idea. My associates and I
have advocated for the past three-four years that the Canadian Coast Guard (CCG) become
part of the Canadian Naval fleet, with responsibility to the senior Naval officers on each Canadian
Coast, with ultimate responsibility to MND. The CCG was efficent and effective under Transport
Canada, but the change to Fisheries and Oceans Canada has been fraught with problems, not
the least of which is the Federal Government's lack of interest, and new plans to "privatize"
more essential CCG services - which are becoming more significant in Canada's security.MacLeod

 

[NCRCrow]

The Canadian Coast Guard is an invisible entity to the Navy.

Agreed, lets get the Coast Guard online similar to the US. I have 12 years of sea time and maybe worked with them once or twice.

The US Coast Guard has a loaded Spruance, tons of cutters, icebreakers and a full air wing.

lets do it!

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Training......dry docks.........people.............$$$...........schools..refits...berths........warehouses.......

Great concepts (really) but totally unrealistic with today's current infrastructure on the coasts.

I would like to see Joint Navy/Army ports at Montreal (due to mast head height)for Petawawa and maybe Moncton for Gagetown, where the Army would have a secure established place to load and unload with Barracks, stores, space etc.

Drive up, load up and leave, all in one shot. No yellow school buses rumbling down the jetty with our infantry in it.

I am also a big fan of coastal missile batteries as a force deterrent and psych factor.

Crow

Oh very unrealisitic just my viewpoint as I mentioned in my intial post. Which Spruance was transferred to USCG control?

 

[NCRCrow]

missed your point...............