• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Save Money and Get a Big Ship

Colin Parkinson

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
3,153
Points
1,060
Not to mention the Federal Fleet Service model shows us a way forward both in procurement/refit of such a vessel and crewing. The plus side of that crewing model is that it is also a perfect place to train the next generation of Canadian Merchant Marine, so you can ship pilots and Masters as needed.
 

JMCanada

Member
Reaction score
49
Points
380
Thanks BAZ for your insightful and instructive replies. I can only agree with most of you have said.

You have shown me there is a gap for one or two HA/DR ships, as to develop the skills, including shore connectors (lcu,lcm) needed when infrastructures are broken. And that gap should be filled, i agree.

Yet the type of vessel is to be decided, i think that the Mistral class would play well the role with no need to go for Canberra class.

Beyond that, I wanted to suggest that, should the scarce resources allow for that, should Canada reach the 2% defence budget target, other gaps are also to be filled such as renovation of the MCM ships or the increase of the submarine fleet. These are not so much personnel demanding and therefore may be sustained more easily on a long-term.
 

Baz

Sr. Member
Donor
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Remembering that
"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."
(attributed to Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980 at https://www.military-quotes.com/forum/logistics-quotes-t511.html)...

I found https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/ship-to-shore-logistics/uk-amphibious-doctrine/ very useful to understand what is actually required to come over the beach in order to rebuild a port facility.  It equally applies to post opposed landings and unopposed or HR/DA ops.

I used to be of the opinion that some form of 2nd tier LHA should be what we should aspire to, my preference being Canberra but including Mistral, but as of late I've changed more to Chris' line of thought.  Which doesn't change the fact we should have snapped up the Russian Mistrals when we had the chance...

My proposal starts with what Atlantic Conveyor was transformed into to support air ops before she was dispatched by the Argentinians, but closer to what Contender Bezant was possibly:
Atlantic-Conveyor-embarking-a-Chinook-in-the-UK.jpg

Atlantic Conveyor as converted to air ops
MV-Contender-Bezant-01-740x448.jpg

Contender Bezant; notice the container cranes.
https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/04/the-atlantic-conveyor-falklands30/

It also includes the concept of a stern ramp onto lighterage; ie no well deck:
stockham5.jpg

Maritime Prepositioning Force (Enhanced) ship USNS Gunnery Sgt. Fred W. Stockham's stern ramp is resting on lighter platforms, forming a roll-on/roll-off discharge facility to unload Navy vehicles. Rebecca Rogers photo
https://www.msc.navy.mil/sealift/2003/April/prepositioned.htm

Finally, it includes the concept of how Federal Fleet Service has obtained and operates the Asterix; ie civilian crew and master with a military detachment (including a lot of loggies).

Obtain two Ro-Ros with stern ramps (big ones!).  Converted the container deck to a flat landing pad, but still with the capability to put containers on top.  Include an elevator to get down to the top vehicle deck so you can store helos down there, and maybe even use it as a hanger for maintenance.  Include one travelling crane which move along tracks at the port and starboard side of said deck, and includes fold down wings to extend over the side.  Build in modular spaces for operations, berthing for an embarked force, and hospital.

Normal loadout would be modular space, hangar, and vehicles and equipment below, one spot flight deck, say two spots unusable as they have embarked lighterage, and the rest containers.

When you have to go over the beach, some of the lighterage is used as a stern "jetty," and the rest is used as the ship to shore connector.  As soon as you put the lighterage over the side you free up helo spots for more intense operations.  Containers can be hoisted over the side onto lighterage.

When in protected waters but no shore facilities are (yet) available, you can bring STUFT (ships taken up from trade) Ro-Ros along side and they can use your lighterage to put down their ramp and unload, and your crane to pick containers of, stage them, and then over the side onto lighterage.

When you obtain jetty space but not yet have the infrastructure up to move containers use shore cranes you can put them over the side yourself, and you can bring another container ship alongside you and move theirs.

When container cranes are available you load and unload just like a normal Ro-Ro.

Finally, if you want to go air heavy, get rid of the lighterage before deploying, carry no containers topside and all your air stores, hangars, and accommodation below, and have 4-5 spots topside.  Park the crane out of the way back by the bridge.

For completeness, *possible* include two RAS spots , one each side immediately forward of the bridge.  Or may the crane could be used to erect RAS gear; an expert on RAS would have to weigh in.

To me, one of these on each coast would give us a very flexible asset we could bring to any littoral ops, and then we wouldn't just show up.  We'd have a credible asset to bring to the mix.
 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
2,909
Points
1,060
Point taken on the Commander Bezant and the lack of the need for the well deck, Baz.

A further, related, model for consideration - rather than incorporating a well deck - is the LASH or Lighter Aboard Ship concept.  The principle difference between the Commander Bezant and the LASH is that some or all of the containers are replaced by barges.  The barges can be towed, self-powered or a mix.  The other difference is that the gantry cranes would extend out over the stern and allow the deck cargo to be lowered directly on to the water abaft the stern.

tak-1005-austral_rainbow.jpg

tak-1005-austrain.jpg


AK 1005 Austral Rainbow
AK 1005 (T-AK 2046) Austral Rainbow, was [apparently until mid-1998] one of three ships currently under charter to support the U.S. Air Force's ammunition prepositioning mission. Austral Rainbow is a LASH, or lighter aboard ship, vessel built in 1972. It is 820 feet long, 100 feet wide and has a deadweight tonnage of 41,000 long tons. In its current configuration, Austral Rainbow can carry up to 100 20-foot containers, 74 LASH barges and two pusher boats. The two pusher boats are used to move barges which have been unloaded into the water. Each barge can carry as much as 250 long tons of cargo. The ship sails at a speed of 16 knots. Austral Rainbow is currently prepositioned in Diego Garcia.

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/tak-1005.htm

The ship itself is not the answer but the deck equipment may be part of the answer - an extension (if you will) of the Commander Bezant solution.

And by the way: I too am a fan of "thinkdefence".
 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
2,909
Points
1,060
Nudder thought:

The type of ship we are talking about now could also be used by an outfit like Federal for commercial purposes.  An ice strengthened variant would be able to assist in strengthening communications links in the north and reducing the cost of shipping.  Basically an extension of the King's Highways which, since at least the time of Darius, has provided both commercial and military value to nations that invest in them.

The value of the ship, of course, is that it is possible to pick up the Highway and take it with you wherever you want to go.

So - a threefer?  Splitting the costs amongst DND, Transport Canada, Industry Canada, Northern Development?

Supporting Arctic Development
Supporting Canadian Jobs (operating the vessels, building the vessels, spin-off jobs from enhancing commercial opportunities in the north)
Providing a service that would permit the CAF to deploy internationally.

The commercial models would be the Point Class RoRos (very similar, if not identical, to the Cragside/Ocean Trader) operated by Foreland Shipping under a 22 year merchant carrier charter with the stipulation
"Four of the Ro-Ro ships are permanently contracted to the MoD with the other two at notice for MoD tasking. For the two ships at notice, one can be accessed in 20 days and the other in 30 days."[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-class_sealift_ship

1280px-Merchant_Vessel_Hartland_Point_Carrying_Military_Equipment_During_Cougar_12_MOD_45154449.jpg
 

JMCanada

Member
Reaction score
49
Points
380
Happy new year to everyone.
And now an interesting link to an article about Australian aircraft capabilities reached onboard their Canberra class LHDs.
I wish you like it.

http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/12/ship-shape-army-amphibious-air-operations-cleared-for-duty/
 

CBH99

Army.ca Veteran
Donor
Reaction score
945
Points
1,090
I know this has probably already been mentioned quite a few times in other threads, so forgive me...

But I was like 80% sure Australia operated Black Hawks, in addition to their other types? 

If the MRH-90 has been such a pain to get to this point, and is bloody expensive as both an airframe & in terms of maintenance... wouldn't the Seahawk be a good choice, given they already operate Black Hawks?


I'll probably edit this when I settle in a bit later tonight, just something that struck me.  Either way, a country that very much has a vision, a focus,  and a willpower to accomplish specific defense goals.  Adulting quite well.
 

dimsum

Army.ca Legend
Mentor
Reaction score
3,387
Points
1,260
CBH99 said:
I know this has probably already been mentioned quite a few times in other threads, so forgive me...

But I was like 80% sure Australia operated Black Hawks, in addition to their other types? 

If the MRH-90 has been such a pain to get to this point, and is bloody expensive as both an airframe & in terms of maintenance... wouldn't the Seahawk be a good choice, given they already operate Black Hawks?

They do.  The Aus Army operates Black Hawks, MRH-90s and Tigers, the RAN operates SH-60R Seahawks, MRH-90s and may still be operating some S-70 Seahawks. 

Speaking of pain, good to know they finally (?) sorted out their issues with the Tiger.  It was a comedy of errors - from Wiki, first delivery was in 2004, end of delivery in 2010, planned FOC in 2011, actual FOC in 2016, and they're going to be replaced in mid-2020s partly b/c of maintenance cost and having to send parts to Europe for maintenance.
 

Gorgo

Full Member
Reaction score
17
Points
230
Since we're now talking about the amphibious carriers that the Australians have, how about getting an Izumo-class DDH/CVH or two to act as flagships of both fleets?  Crew manning for the ship itself is about the same as any Iroquois-class DDH and if we get them with the modifications to fly F-35Bs, they could serve as extra decks for allied forces to use when necessary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izumo-class_helicopter_destroyer
 

Cloud Cover

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
30
Points
530
JMCanada said:
Happy new year to everyone.
And now an interesting link to an article about Australian aircraft capabilities reached onboard their Canberra class LHDs.
I wish you like it.

http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/12/ship-shape-army-amphibious-air-operations-cleared-for-duty/

Something about the Aussies that is humorous are the endless claims of "most complex in the world"; "best in the world"; "biggest in the world" etc.  Is this a "Down-Under" compensation issue?
 

RDBZ

Member
Reaction score
0
Points
160
Cloud Cover said:
Something about the Aussies that is humorous are the endless claims of "most complex in the world"; "best in the world"; "biggest in the world" etc.  Is this a "Down-Under" compensation issue?

To be fair, he’s comparing NH-90 and tiger in ADF service compared to other forces.  The ADF probably has pushed a lot harder than most of those countries.  There were some interesting statistics on equipment availability in the German armed forces recently.
 

Baz

Sr. Member
Donor
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Cloud Cover said:
Something about the Aussies that is humorous are the endless claims of "most complex in the world"; "best in the world"; "biggest in the world" etc.  Is this a "Down-Under" compensation issue?

I don't think it is limited to them.

[quote author=Commander Royal Canadian Navy September 9 2018 on Facebook]
Bravo Zulu to the crew of CH-148 Cyclone or call-sign “Avalanche,” for being a force multiplier during Operation REASSURANCE on HMCS Ville de Québec. This is the first-ever ship deployment of the Cyclone and it is proving to be the world’s best maritime helicopter! The “Avalanche” has been conducting surface and sub-surface surveillance, and search and rescue, during the Canadian Armed Forces’ contribution to NATO assurance and deterrence measures in Central and Eastern Europe. #RCNavy #RCAF #WeAreNato
[/quote]
https://www.facebook.com/1781413172109914/posts/2094096240841604/
 

JMCanada

Member
Reaction score
49
Points
380
I know there is no intention to go for a 2nd MH. Nevermind, this is a nice article (would say it's propaganda also) about RN's Wildcats.
Not fully understand why they do not fit dipping sonar like Koreans do.
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/in-focus-the-wildcat-multi-role-helicopter-in-service-with-the-royal-navy/
 

IRepoCans

Jr. Member
Reaction score
23
Points
130
Seems like the RN is on route to (re-)acquiring littoral vessels to enable and support special forces / Royal Marines:

Click Here
The UK is set to acquire two Littoral Strike Ships with the ability to launch troops and their equipment via helicopters and boats.

Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson has confirmed that the UK will purchase the vessels. Referring to the new new Littoral Strike Ships, Williamson said:

“These globally deployable, multi-role vessels will be able to conduct a wide range of operations, from crisis support to war-fighting.

They would support out future Commando force. They will be forward deployed at exceptionally high readiness and able to respond at a moments notice, bringing the fight from sea to land.


More on link...

I wonder how this would come about given the money juggling the MoD have been up to as of late and the reductions made to the Royal Marines (and their enabling elements) over the past 20-30 years.
 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
2,909
Points
1,060
This is the bit that caught my eye (highlighted text) -

Britain will buy and adapt cargo ships or ferries to bring two new vessels into service which could rapidly respond to a crisis and carry out a range of operations, the Defence Secretary has announced.

....

"These globally deployable, multi-role vessels would be able to conduct a wide range of operations from crisis support to war fighting," he said.

"They would support our future Commando force, our world-renowned Royal Marines - they will be forward deployed at exceptionally high readiness and able to respond at a moment's notice - bringing the fight from the sea to land."

....

It is understood the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is considering using cargo ships or ferries, with the existing hulls converted and ultimately able to deploy assets from them including fast boats, landing craft, helicopters and special forces.

See Maersk, Point Class, Ocean Trader, US, Davie, Asterix.
 

FSTO

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
1,033
Points
1,090
Ó Donnghaile said:
Seems like the RN is on route to (re-)acquiring littoral vessels to enable and support special forces / Royal Marines:

Click Here
I wonder how this would come about given the money juggling the MoD have been up to as of late and the reductions made to the Royal Marines (and their enabling elements) over the past 20-30 years.
Maybe the MOD is waking up to the fact that RN and its Marines are the best bang for their defence buck?
 

Kirkhill

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Reaction score
2,909
Points
1,060
FSTO said:
Maybe the MOD is waking up to the fact that RN and its Marines are the best bang for their defence buck?

Re-discovering the policy of Alfred the Great, Hakluyt, Henry VIII and Samuel Pepys.

Not to mention the men that took the British Army into the European Wars of the 18th Century

Field Marshal de la Rochefoucauld
Maj Gen Jean Ligonier
Maj Gen Jean Cavalier

And in Canada, Britain's Lt Governor in Acadia, Jean-Paul Mascarene.

All four of them refugees from Louis XIVs France after the 1685 revocation of the edict of Nantes with the concurrent Dragonades, and from the area around Nimes outside of Marseilles.  Most of them escaped to Britain by way of Geneva and Holland.

Rochefoucauld was responsible for adding 10 regiments of foot in 1739/40, just before his death (44th to 53rd) - all of them brigaded to the Navy as marines.  That represented some 25% of the line infantry.

Curiously, for Canadians, this activity was concurrent with the activity of the Gallican priest, Abbe Le Loutre in Acadia, which ultimately led to the relocation of the Acadians.

Sorry for the ramble.
 

Cloud Cover

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
30
Points
530
The artist image of the RN ship looks quite similar to the Irving design they used to try and push Davie underwater, which was ( I gather) based on the US Point Class.
 

Attachments

  • 3FA7E8EA-C1C3-4549-944D-F5FBD82421E0.jpeg
    3FA7E8EA-C1C3-4549-944D-F5FBD82421E0.jpeg
    288.7 KB · Views: 526
  • 93E73A97-C63B-4C65-9C3F-913EB295A7B5.jpeg
    93E73A97-C63B-4C65-9C3F-913EB295A7B5.jpeg
    122.3 KB · Views: 543
Top