Murder in Israeli Settlements

[a_majoor]

While you can always hide your head in the sand, deny the facts (and it won'tmatter what sources are provided, to you they are always wrong, biased, made up etc.), but the Palestinians have taken their opportunities and thrown them away. IF, as you say, a small radical fringe is responsible for their present misery, why have the majority not risen up and swept them away?

There is no evidence anywhere that the Palistinians have any true desire to ground arms and actually build a state and live in peace with their neighbours (you might inquire as to how the Jordanians reacted to the Palistinians, or why other Arab nations are not welcoming of Palestinians on their soil, outside of the obvious need to keep people distracted from what is happening in their own countries). Yassar Arafat sparked the Infantada despite (or perhaps because of) being offered something like 90% of what was demanded at Camp David; perhaps it would be an interesting research project to find out why?

In the end. the question for ourselves is do we support a fellow liberal democratic state on principle (as we have comparable principles and thus mutual interests), or do we not? Despite what Edward says, I believe that to abandon our principles would be bad not just for Israel, but also the long term future of the Middle East and also for ourselves. We see here in Canada that abandoning our principles is bringing things lke differential law enforcemens and violence in Caledonia, academics, politicians and human right advocates becoming silent in the face of crimes like "honour killings" in Canada and hosts of other issues beginning to surface.

So on principle I condemn the killers and support any eforts to bring them to justice.

 

[Redeye]

While you can always hide your head in the sand, deny the facts (and it won'tmatter what sources are provided, to you they are always wrong, biased, made up etc.), but the Palestinians have taken their opportunities and thrown them away. IF, as you say, a small radical fringe is responsible for their present misery, why have the majority not risen up and swept them away?

I'm not sure why.  I'm not Palestinian.  I'm thinking of the concept of learned helplessness being at play though.

As for denying the facts, the FACT is that the Israelis have contributed far more to the destruction of infrastructure than the Palestinian general public.  Period.  Full Stop.  There is no denying this.  Israeli bombs destroyed the airport in Gaza.  The Israeli naval blockade strangles the Palestinian economy.  That's not opinion, those are the facts.

There is no evidence anywhere that the Palistinians have any true desire to ground arms and actually build a state and live in peace with their neighbours (you might inquire as to how the Jordanians reacted to the Palistinians, or why other Arab nations are not welcoming of Palestinians on their soil, outside of the obvious need to keep people distracted from what is happening in their own countries). Yassar Arafat sparked the Infantada despite (or perhaps because of) being offered something like 90% of what was demanded at Camp David; perhaps it would be an interesting research project to find out why?

Palestinians showing up en masse in Jordan would have been as well received as Israelis showing up on Palestinian land.  I don't know if that was the reason, but it seems to make sense.

In the end. the question for ourselves is do we support a fellow liberal democratic state on principle (as we have comparable principles and thus mutual interests), or do we not? Despite what Edward says, I believe that to abandon our principles would be bad not just for Israel, but also the long term future of the Middle East and also for ourselves. We see here in Canada that abandoning our principles is bringing things lke differential law enforcemens and violence in Caledonia, academics, politicians and human right advocates becoming silent in the face of crimes like "honour killings" in Canada and hosts of other issues beginning to surface.

OHNOCREEPINGSHARIARUNFORTHEHILLS!  :facepalm:

Do I support Israel purely on principle?  No.  I don't.  Do I have animosity toward the people that live there?  No.  Of course not.  I think their politicians have been as complicit in the mess there as anyone else, and the fact that it was the Palestinians' land to begin when they arrived and had a UN establish a state for them with little concern for the people that already lived there tilts the scale against them.  That the Israelis have slaughtered civilians in the Occupied Territories while the world apologizes for them does do.  Yes, Palestinians have engaged in violence too.  Both sides are guilty.  Both sides need to find a solution.

So on principle I condemn the killers and support any eforts to bring them to justice.
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[SevenSixTwo]

While you can always hide your head in the sand, deny the facts (and it won'tmatter what sources are provided, to you they are always wrong, biased, made up etc.), but the Palestinians have taken their opportunities and thrown them away. IF, as you say, a small radical fringe is responsible for their present misery, why have the majority not risen up and swept them away?

There is no evidence anywhere that the Palistinians have any true desire to ground arms and actually build a state and live in peace with their neighbours (you might inquire as to how the Jordanians reacted to the Palistinians, or why other Arab nations are not welcoming of Palestinians on their soil, outside of the obvious need to keep people distracted from what is happening in their own countries). Yassar Arafat sparked the Infantada despite (or perhaps because of) being offered something like 90% of what was demanded at Camp David; perhaps it would be an interesting research project to find out why?

In the end. the question for ourselves is do we support a fellow liberal democratic state on principle (as we have comparable principles and thus mutual interests), or do we not? Despite what Edward says, I believe that to abandon our principles would be bad not just for Israel, but also the long term future of the Middle East and also for ourselves. We see here in Canada that abandoning our principles is bringing things lke differential law enforcemens and violence in Caledonia, academics, politicians and human right advocates becoming silent in the face of crimes like "honour killings" in Canada and hosts of other issues beginning to surface.

So on principle I condemn the killers and support any eforts to bring them to justice.

So on principle your supporting "eforts" to bring Israel to justice. Rather than appointing "impartial Israeli investigations".



Being a powerful nation BELIEVE it or not comes with responsibility. Canada doesn't go raid/kill Native reservations or Inuits everytime a Canadian is killed. Nor did it do an invasion of Quebec just because the FLQ killed a few people. It always looks for the people responsible rather than punishing those who are in the country.


Show me another nation that attacks another nation due to the death of three citizens (President's are excluded from this obviously).




Following Israeli doctrine the US should have been using armoured bull dozers to level Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11 and telling them go to live somewhere else while placing Israeli citizens where those old homes used to be.


Does that sound responsible?


Or does it sound more responsible to hunt down those who kill and are actually responsible while rebuilding the state, the infrastructure and the homes of people while HELPING form a new government that isn't as crazy as the Taliban or Saddam.


To me the strategy in Iraq and Afghanistan is much better dropping bombs on U.N. Humanitarian buildings.

It's almost as if Israel read the strategic doctrine manual made by USSR for the Soviet Campaign in Afghanistan which, was basically kill everyone. Over two million civilians were killed in the Soviet War in Afghanistan. Around twenty thousand died since the 2001 invasion over a time period of 10 years!


What if Israel did the same in Gaza for 10 years? They ended up with around 1,200 Palenstinian casualties in a month. If the same level of conflict remained Israel would have killed/inflicted/accidentially/caused 1,440,000 deaths in civilians. (Population is only 450,000 in Gaza P.S)

Now you might say oh blah blah blah IDF is friggen awesome and we need to support it no matter what and who cares if they killed 1,400 people!

Sounds awfully similar to USSR in Afghanistan.



Well 1,400 people is 0.3% of the countries population. If that were the U.S. it's the equivalent of killing around 1,000,000 million people.

 

[Maelstrom]

Israel had an opportunity to live peacefully in Palenstine before 1948 but instead they chose to make weapons and attack the British/Palestinians until their voice for land was heard.

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Who's to say Palestine won't get their country back by attacking Israelis? After all that's exactly how Israel got their country.

Since the fall of the Ottoman Empire a Jewish home was to be formed, and of course a second state from the partition of the Palestinian Terrtory. They have every right to claim a state as Palenstine.

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Actually a two state solution with Jerusalem being an internationally controlled city was agreed to by the UN and Isreal, but not by the Arab League.

Isreal has had to defend itself from the start.

 

[cavalryman]

I post the following without comment on my part.

IDF, settlers save Arab baby
Saving life after massacre: IDF troops, paramedics save life of Palestinian woman giving birth in settlement where Fogel relatives sitting Shiva. Soldier: It felt amazing to hold girl in my arms, know we did something good

More at link
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4043536,00.html

 

[SevenSixTwo]

Since the fall of the Ottoman Empire a Jewish home was to be formed, and of course a second state from the partition of the Palestinian Terrtory. They have every right to claim a state as Palenstine.

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Actually a two state solution with Jerusalem being an internationally controlled city was agreed to by the UN and Isreal, but not by the Arab League.

Isreal has had to defend itself from the start.

The top part of quote isn't mine, the second half is.


It's disrespectful to say Israel did nothing but defend itself towards the British soldiers who lost their lives against Israeli attacks before Israel was made.

 

[Maelstrom]

No, both quotes I made were from the same post. They were yours

 

[SevenSixTwo]

No, both quotes I made were from the same post. They were yours

Ah, nevermind I misread what you said and for some reason thought I said something about the Ottoman's.

Either way, the ball got rolling for Israel because of their offensive actions. Jewish population after Ottoman empire fall was almost minimal in Palenstine.


My point still stands that if Israel could win it's country through violence then why can't Palenstine.

 

[OldSolduer]

My point still stands that if Israel could win it's country through violence then why can't Palenstine.

Because maybe Israeli soldiers don't slit the throats of kids.

 

[SevenSixTwo]

Because maybe Israeli soldiers don't slit the throats of kids.

See, this is the kind of ignorant posting I hate to see.

Please tell me how slitting kids throats by the Israeli militant group Irgun, blowing up super markets AND blowing up a hotel is any different.


The very FIRST Palestinian militant group in Palenstine was the Black Hand which, was made as an Anti-Zionist militant group to fight against groups such as the Israeli Irgun terrorist group.




EDIT: Italicized word added.

 

[George Wallace]

Why do I get the feeling that you are Palestinian?

 

[SevenSixTwo]

Why do I get the feeling that you are Palestinian?

You gave me a chuckle, I am not Palestinian but the reason why I laughed is because today I saw a "How to spot poor argumentative skills" and one of them said:

"You attack the speaker rather than attacking the argument.

Ex 1) You're an idiot, so you must be wrong

Ex 2) You must be a Native since you support Natives.

Ex 3) You support Global Warming? Go away you Hippie!"

 

[OldSolduer]

See, this is the kind of ignorant posting I hate to see.

Please tell me how slitting kids throats by the Israeli militant group Irgun, blowing up super markets AND blowing up a hotel is any different.


The very FIRST Palestinian militant group in Palenstine was the Black Hand which, was made as an Anti-Zionist militant group to fight against groups such as the Israeli Irgun terrorist group.




EDIT: Italicized word added.

So that makes it OK for PLO types ie Hamas and Hezbollah etc to slit the throats of kids?

And I'm the ignorant one.

BTW, I looked at your profile Seven Six two.
Its empty.

Nice touch.

 

[SevenSixTwo]

So that makes it OK for PLO types ie Hamas and Hezbollah etc to slit the throats of kids?

And I'm the ignorant one.

BTW, I looked at your profile Seven Six two.
Its empty.

Nice touch.

Did I say it was okay?


Why don't you do look at some of my posts if you want to know more? Or are you just telling me that your the type of person who doesn't do research? 

Because it certainly looks that way.

 

[OldSolduer]

As soon as you post some bona fides I might take you seriously. Have a nice day.

And who do you think you are?

 

[SevenSixTwo]

"You attack the speaker rather than attacking the argument.

Ex 1) You're an idiot, so you must be wrong

Ex 2) You must be a Native since you support Natives.

Ex 3) You support Global Warming? Go away you Hippie!"

Looks, like this still holds true. Anyways, we've moved too far from the original post so that's the end of that.

 

[Infanteer]

"Babe...duh-duh, duh-duh...I Got you Babe"

...and this thread has run its course.