More sailors needed for Canada's warships

[JohnnyCanuck1977]

Great post Teabag good to hear it from your side and your generation.  And I too fear for the future if this trend continues.

 

[Halifax Tar]

What exactly do you fear JC77 and Teabag ?

I'm not typing this in a "poop disturbing" manner but is it the changes that need to happen that you fear ? Or the lack of personnel ?

 

[sm1lodon]

I wonder if there was some actual combat, if it would be so hard to retain people in the Navy.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I wonder if there was some actual combat, if it would be so hard to retain people in the Navy.

We know that that is one of the risks when we get in the Navy, if it happens then it happens. Thwere are lots of reasons why we cannot retain people and most are found in the navy forums.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I wonder if there was some actual combat, if it would be so hard to retain people in the Navy.

I think you may be right. We haven't fired a war shot sense Korea. We have done some great things but were don't make much of a ripple in the news. For instance how fast did the VDQs mission vaporize ? It was off the radar screen of the CBC and CTV in a few weeks. Why ? Well I wasn't there but I suspect it was because escorting ships uneventfully just isn't as compelling or exciting to Joe Canada as Afghanistan, Gaza or the 43rd round of the Kamloops house league minor pee wee hockey draft.

I know when I go back home for leave I'm always asked "We have a Navy ?" or "What do you guys do in the Navy ?"

Had interesting epulates off conversation with a LT(N) on my ship yesterday about retention and issues facing the navy, lets just say he didn't realize the dependence rank plays in quality of life on board ship VS in the field or on an Air Field.

 

[sm1lodon]

We know that that is one of the risks when we get in the Navy, if it happens then it happens. Thwere are lots of reasons why we cannot retain people and most are found in the navy forums.

Risk? That is my point. I imagine people don't join the Navy with the thought that combat is some remote risk. For some people, it would be the whole POINT. Warriors like to see their inclinations used for combat, making a positive difference in the world through force of arms.

My point was, without actual combat, boredom would become pandemic, morale low.

There was higher morale on the Bismarck during its final voyage, especially after sinking the Hood, than there would have been if it just sailed around in circles, rattling its sabres for years, I imagine, if it was crewed by actual warriors.

If people join any military force hoping there will be NO combat, then I can see where they would be happy if none happened. I don't imagine that most people join with that attitude, though, at least, not in anything combat-related.

 

[Sub_Guy]

or the 43rd round of the Kamloops house league minor pee wee hockey draft.

I got to watch that!  Excellent stuff.  Look out for Todd Cooper, a steal, taken 189th overall.

The sad truth is the media doesn't really care what the navy does, because generally everyone who leaves with the ship, comes back with the ship.  If no one was dying in Afghanistan it wouldn't be in the news at all.

Sure the navy isn't out there firing shots and sinking ships, but who is?  India?  I am willing to bet the morale on the ships that just returned from the gulf and on the VDQ is actually quite high, higher than say on those ships who didn't sail or those who just did local ops.

You do not need actual combat for high morale.  I highly doubt this is the reason for anyone leaving the Navy.

 

[teabag]

What exactly do you fear JC77 and Teabag? Is it the changes that need to happen that you fear? Or the lack of personnel?

My worries are just that - worries.  They creep up every so often while I carry out my daily routine but I try not to dwell too much on it.  For example, I worry that my attitude and views may one day grow to reflect some of the exact same sentiments that have been expressed in this topic by various contributors.  Many of the issues brought up were valid, to an extent, and are seemingly tangible obstacles to a more fulfilling, enjoyable military career.  I cannot pinpoint exactly what changes need to happen; as an OD I follow my orders and keep my personal opinions to myself for the most part.  Lack of personnel is a reality and not a concern for someone of my rank, but I can imagine that it will exacerbate job stress and fuel negativity among those currently serving.

In hindsight, there were many subject gaps in my previous post and points I should have added.  A career in the Navy seems to require a lot flexibility; with schedules, expectations, environments, sacrifices, etc.  People are entitled to live their life as they believe they ought to.  People are quick to note deficiencies and irregularities because it is part of our nature.  And people continue to struggle - to find appreciation in what they already have.  I'm starting to ramble because my lack of experience is making it difficult to speak for and cover all aspects of this discussion.  Bottom line is there are people out there who have it worse.  A lot worse.  We have every right to want things to be more convenient, more understanding, and more sensible.  The Navy may very well have to be completely redefined to match what today's military personnel would like it to be.

But aren't we being a little selfish?  Boats exist to sail and dedicated individuals are needed to sail it.  What are the priorities right now, on our minds, and how do they compare with the priorities of the Department of National Defense?  Are the majority of sailors who release do so because they are fed up, or is it because their priorities have been adjusted?  Perhaps there is nothing terribly wrong with the Navy.  Could it be possible that this issue as we see it is simply an indication of a greater cultural and/or social movement in Canada?

Am I going completely off-topic?

I wonder if there was some actual combat, if it would be so hard to retain people in the Navy.

Good point.  How many personnel can admit that in the course of their careers they have never wanted to feel the thrill and anticipation of combat?  You see it in the recruiting campaign all the time: Fight chaos.  Fight fear.  Fight with the Canadian Forces.  It's an effective marketing tool that gives the impression that we are constantly and proactively engaging the enemy.  (not that we're not...) Things are made that much easier when you can point a finger at someone to direct all your intentions.  I have no doubt there are many who crave and are nourished by the thought of engaging a target.  Who's to say if that constitutes a good reason to join the military?  It's certainly none of my business - yet for some reason it makes me uncomfortable.

How you make a positive difference in the world is a matter of perspective.  For some, the use of force may be the sole motivating factor for their involvement with the military.  For others, it can be quite the opposite.  The question becomes whether both groups are capable of taking the opposite stance and still function effectively.  I believe somewhere up the chain of command these philosophical questions are being addressed but the findings of which are better left unspoken.

Then again, the whole idea of introducing and emphasizing the core values important to the military - as done in basic training - is an attempt to unify the ethos that binds us all together, no?  This is done so that things like the use of arms do not become the only guiding principle for impressionable recruits?  So that notions of duty take precedence over personal fulfillment?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

You do not need actual combat for high morale.  I highly doubt this is the reason for anyone leaving the Navy.

Agreed

 

[NCRCrow]

I see the repetition of tasks at all levels a factor such as WUPS, OTT Cleaning stations (which are never good enough), Duty watches  etc. etc. It is just nonstop plus all the admin (PDR's, Div Notes)
The ports are getting repetitive as well, with Norfolk, Boston, St John's the norm.

Our retention problem for the newer people to me is boredom.

 

[Monsoon]

Had interesting epulates off conversation with a LT(N) on my ship yesterday about retention and issues facing the navy, lets just say he didn't realize the dependence rank plays in quality of life on board ship VS in the field or on an Air Field.

Really? You were an officer before you reverted to the ranks? How long were you in the army and air force before that?

Not having to do cleaning stations is nice, I guess, but I never cease to be amazed by the extent to which people are prepared to believe that they know about everything the officers on their ship do. Nothing more aggravating that spending 60 hours in a week alongside (when mostly everyone else is off on pre-deployment leave) revising and re-revising a deployment FLEX and then having to grit your teeth and try to look sympathetic during an "epaulets-off" conversation with someone who thinks you aren't carrying your weight. I also note that C&POs never seem to suffer from that, but I guess what they do is more easily observed.

 

[NCRCrow]

Your last line ref C&PO's, could you elaborate?

I agree with you on the Officers and the work load and responsibility they carry on a Ship. Not to mention the myriad of messages, to write, check, have the XO's pen slice and dice. Rewrite.

Look at the role of PO1 Director's with the responsibility for EW, ASUW and AWW or ASW plus running a section.

I thought it was alot easier to be a LS.

 

[Monsoon]

Your last line ref C&PO's, could you elaborate?

Just saying I've never heard an LS say that the C&POs have it easy on ship. Maybe it happens and I just wasn't around.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I see the repetition of tasks at all levels a factor such as WUPS, OTT Cleaning stations (which are never good enough), Duty watches  etc. etc. It is just nonstop plus all the admin (PDR's, Div Notes)
The ports are getting repetitive as well, with Norfolk, Boston, St John's the norm.

Our retention problem for the newer people to me is boredom.

And what's wrong with St. John's?

 

[Stoker]

And what's wrong with St. John's?

I think what he means that the ships go to some ports over and over including St.John's. There's lots of ports out there and something different is nice once and a while.

 

[NCRCrow]

absolutely nothing wrong with the Stetson!!

 

[Pat in Halifax]

True, true - Best 'foreign port' going!! Actually, rec'd a brief from CCFL last week and I guess he directed the coordinator in the Starchamber at MARLANT to ban Norfolk from upcoming deployments. Options - Boston (HAL), Mayport (STJ??). I am sure Norfolk will find it's way in though.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Ah the usual suspects. 

Boston, nice the first couple of times but got to the point I did not even leave the ship last couple of visits.

Norfolk, good shopping at the NEX and malls but need more time & better transport to go see interesting parts of VA. 

Mayport, zzzzzzzzzz.

St John's, sadly only had the pleasure once in 2000. OUTSTANDING ! #1

Fleet Week in Ft Lauderdale a  few years back was great.  NYC Fleet Week not nearly so but the citizens of the Big Apple more than made up for it as usual.  Fantastic foreign ports.

And Quebec city was interesting and which was strange for home, really did feel like a foreign port.

 

[axeman]

OFFTOPIC im out here in Quebec  / Valcartier to be exact. kinda odd to be a Hull teh and going in a airforce/ or army role again , and it is a differnt country . Ive been given lectures in french when i've told my chain of command i dont speak french.  Well i can sympathize with the whole distinct language issue . But at this time it WILL put lifes and careerrs at risk. If a soldier sailor airman goes off thinking i think i understood what they were saying . they will find out that if they screw up the JAG and systemwill hang them for it .  When i ask for translations or classes to be in english as there are enough anglos  to warrent it we have been snubbed.  While great to visit  i would not want to live here  well at least in this section anyway .  back to your regular scheduled topic..

 

[gongsh0w]

True, true - Best 'foreign port' going!! Actually, rec'd a brief from CCFL last week and I guess he directed the coordinator in the Starchamber at MARLANT to ban Norfolk from upcoming deployments. Options - Boston (HAL), Mayport (STJ??). I am sure Norfolk will find it's way in though.

Good news, I could go a couple years without seeing the folk again.