MLE and Expedition Dress

[quadrapiper]

you dont get issued CADETPAT, you have to purchase it. I highly doubt that you will be issued CADPAT, as it's a restricted item. Not to mention that they have better places to go.

The cadet team(s) participating in recent Nijmegen marches have been issued CADPAT. Including Air Cadets. As for "better places to go," CADPAT is supposed to be a universal Army item of issue - and ditto for the Air Force, AFAIK.

We should, by now, have passed the point where there is so little CADPAT in the system that there is any legitimate reason to restrict issue by operational priority.

Sorry, but, as OD is no longer in production, cadets will be wearing CADPAT eventually. If it's sufficiently available that Naval types can be seen wearing it in a Subway in Esquimalt (Jnr Ranks naval badges on the berets), it might as well be brought into cadet issue as well, as field training gear.

 

[armyvern]

The cadet team(s) participating in recent Nijmegen marches have been issued CADPAT. Including Air Cadets. As for "better places to go," CADPAT is supposed to be a universal Army item of issue - and ditto for the Air Force, AFAIK.

Cadpat is a universal item of issue for both Army and Air CF members of which cadets are not; and there's an awful big difference there. This is applic to both RegF and ResF (which includes those CIC Officers, although CIC Officers are not considered part of the Primary Reserve Force), but it sure doesn't include cadets.

We should, by now, have passed the point where there is so little CADPAT in the system that there is any legitimate reason to restrict issue by operational priority.

Why yes we have bypassed that, but cadets still don't qualify as CF members, nor do I suspect they will any time in the near or distant future. No offense, but cadets simply do not fall into the operational priority of the CF. The legitimate reason is exactly that they are...a cadet and are not a CF member.

Sorry, but, as OD is no longer in production, cadets will be wearing CADPAT eventually. If it's sufficiently available that Naval types can be seen wearing it in a Subway in Esquimalt (Jnr Ranks naval badges on the berets), it might as well be brought into cadet issue as well, as field training gear.

It'll be many many years away, long after today's cadets have aged out. There's still tonnes of OG107 combats out there in the system (and BTW stocked at CSTS's) anxiously awaiting it's issue to cadets for their summer courses. Me thinks you need to brush up on the fact that cadets are not CF members. A cadet, can not compare themself with with RegF or ResF CF members regardless of their rank or enviornment.

Op Nijmegan, different situation all together. It's not a summer cadet camp or course. It's a high-profile event, exceptions are made.

 

[quadrapiper]

Cadpat is a universal item of issue for both Army and Air CF members of which cadets are not; and there's an awful big difference there. This is applic to both RegF and ResF (which includes those CIC Officers, although CIC Officers are not considered part of the Primary Reserve Force), but it sure doesn't include cadets.

Entirely aware of that... the point of my post was the assertion that CADPAT is in some way special, as compared to OG - restricted item and all that.

If there's enough OG floating about, by all means issue it to cadets, and do so at the home unit; they, especially Army Cadets, need field kit, and none of the gear currently available at the home unit cuts it for field wear. Cadets are thus faced with either using entirely unsuitable civvy clothes, or buying something especially, which usually means surplus OG or, worse, CADPAT or FakePAT of some sort, or, at the absolute bottom of the barrel, foreign combat clothing.

Why yes we have bypassed that, but cadets still don't qualify as CF members, nor do I suspect they will any time in the near or distant future. No offense, but cadets simply do not fall into the operational priority of the CF. The legitimate reason is exactly that they are...a cadet and are not a CF member.

Made that point in your first para - and entirely beside the point, especially given how cadets have been wearing CADPAT's precursor for years - and I would suspect that OG was held to be just as state-of-the-art, initially.

Besides, the theory is that the CF/DND provides the uniforms (as well as an immense amount of other support) for cadets, and the way that has worked in the past is that cadets are issued current or near-current working/field/combat uniforms for non-ceremonial/classroom training. This practise has, of late, been regrettably limited to summer training.

Curious as to what happened during the transition between OG and whatever came before - was there this great to-do about cadet entitlement?

As far as the operational priorities of the CF, Cadets as an organization have to fall in there somewhere - at the absolute bottom, most likely, and rightly so, but with some call on resources, after all other possible users have seen to their needs. CF/DND program, customarily making use of service facilities and other resources, and all that...

It'll be many many years away, long after today's cadets have aged out. There's still tonnes of OG107 combats out there in the system (and BTW stocked at CSTS's) anxiously awaiting it's issue to cadets for their summer courses. Me thinks you need to brush up on the fact that cadets are not CF members. A cadet, can not compare themself with with RegF or ResF CF members regardless of their rank or enviornment.

Did I suggest anything of the sort? All I see is a point regarding supply availability, aimed at certain bogus arguments floated in this and other threads.

By the way, stepping aside from the debate, what would naval members be doing in that gear, anyway, barring duty in some clearly "land" environment? Glad to hear about both the quantities of OG, and that it will likely be replaced, when it runs out, with CADPAT...

Op Nijmegan, different situation all together. It's not a summer cadet camp or course. It's a high-profile event, exceptions are made.

So explain this... you don't agree with cadets being issued CADPAT except when it'll look bright and shiny in an international setting? I seem to recall one of the initial posts related to exchanges - not exactly Nijmegan, but close, on the look-good-for-the-neighbours scale.

 

[armyvern]

Entirely aware of that... the point of my post was the assertion that CADPAT is in some way special, as compared to OG - restricted item and all that.

Get this much. It is a restricted item. It is still a restricted item despite us having lots of stock now. It used to be even further restricted for issue during it's implementation phase to ensure that those who required it first got it first. That's not why it's a restricted item though. It's because it's subject to CTAT & ITAR regulations...you can find that in various other threads so I'll not go into it again here.

If there's enough OG floating about, by all means issue it to cadets, and do so at the home unit; they, especially Army Cadets, need field kit, and none of the gear currently available at the home unit cuts it for field wear. Cadets are thus faced with either using entirely unsuitable civvy clothes, or buying something especially, which usually means surplus OG or, worse, CADPAT or FakePAT of some sort, or, at the absolute bottom of the barrel, foreign combat clothing.Made that point in your first para - and entirely beside the point, especially given how cadets have been wearing CADPAT's precursor for years - and I would suspect that OG was held to be just as state-of-the-art, initially.
Besides, the theory is that the CF/DND provides the uniforms (as well as an immense amount of other support) for cadets, and the way that has worked in the past is that cadets are issued current or near-current working/field/combat uniforms for non-ceremonial/classroom training. This practise has, of late, been regrettably limited to summer training..

No worries then as there is indeed lots of OG out there. Thousands of pairs are even in mint never-been-worn condition...just waiting. And no offense, even when I was a cadet in the early 80s...we got issued combats only for summer training courses. Else we bought it ourselves, nothing at all has changed despite your protestations otherwise.

Curious as to what happened during the transition between OG and whatever came before - was there this great to-do about cadet entitlement?

See my last. The only scale applicable to cadets is that for "Summer Training" and then they are entiled to combats temp issued...for summer trg purposes. Much like Naval CIC Officers are entitled to cadpat only for durations of employment in a Cadet Summer Training Factility, unlike their Air and Land brethren.

As far as the operational priorities of the CF, Cadets as an organization have to fall in there somewhere - at the absolute bottom, most likely, and rightly so, but with some call on resources, after all other possible users have seen to their needs. CF/DND program, customarily making use of service facilities and other resources, and all that...Did I suggest anything of the sort? All I see is a point regarding supply availability, aimed at certain bogus arguments floated in this and other threads.

Cadets NOT being CF members are far from bogus arguments. And WRT the Supply availability (which was never applicable to cadets in the first place), I've explained it above...must have been a much older post you read if it was a Supply availability of cadpat was mentioned. And I don't recall "lack of stock" ever being given as a reason by any Supply Tech for it's not being issued to a cadet.

By the way, stepping aside from the debate, what would naval members be doing in that gear, anyway, barring duty in some clearly "land" environment? Glad to hear about both the quantities of OG, and that it will likely be replaced, when it runs out, with CADPAT...So explain this... you don't agree with cadets being issued CADPAT except when it'll look bright and shiny in an international setting? I seem to recall one of the initial posts related to exchanges - not exactly Nijmegan, but close, on the look-good-for-the-neighbours scale.

Well let's just see, Naval Boarding Party, Base Defense Force, Port Security, Purple trades posted to Naval Bases just to name a few reasons why they'd be in cadpat. As to your statement above...(I've bolded it) I never said I agreed with it; I only explained why the exception occured so obviously someone in NDHQ agreed that there should be an exception.

And no, the same situation is not necessarily applicable to the cadet going on foreign exchange. Op Nijmegan is an operation consisting of RegF, ResF and Cadet pers and is internationally high-profile. A cadet on an exchange course is certainly not an official "OP" and is certainly not participating in a march along with RegF & ResF components. Two whole different beasts, thus, I'd expect, the different decisions made in NDHQ regarding the two.

 

[medaid]

As for "better places to go," CADPAT is supposed to be a universal Army item of issue - and ditto for the Air Force, AFAIK.

Maybe, you should stick to your lanes. As The Librarian has already pointed out countless times. CADETS are NOT ENTITLED TO CADPAT. And yes, CADPAT does have better places to go IMHO, then to either Cadets or CIC. FULL STOP.

 

[Sloaner]

Quadrapiper, while I am no expert in any way shape or form I can draw from a great deal of different experience.  Cadets of any element do not need CADPAT, or combat clothing of any type for their field training (with the possible exception of range, with a big emphasis of possible).  As CIC officers and sworn members of the CF, we have a limited entitlement to the equipment and a need to properly represent the CF so we are issued with what we need to complete our various duties, our cadets do not have those same requirements.  Being a Naval cadet, you may not be aware of the direction of the army program to more expedition training where combat clothing is wholly inappropriate and, as you called it, unsuitable civvie gear is the recommended equipment for adventure training activities because it is simply better suited.  Cadets at NO TIME fit into the operational make-up of the CF despite your assertion that they MUST fit in somewhere.

If the program is to get a "Field uniform" I would prefer to see it come off the shelf of the likes of MEC to adapt to the realities of our field training.  While there is aneed to keep the "Army" in army cadets, that doesn't mean we need to always be in combats or ever in CADPAT.  The CSTC's have more than sufficient stocks of the OG107 to cover the needs of cadets on course when that gear is apporpriate or required, and I would be surprised if our cadets ever had a need for CADPAT beyond keeping an identity relationship to the CF.  For what it is worth, the CF has been more than accomodating in ensuring the bulk of the remaining OG107 has gone to the cadet program, and on occasssion even to the LHQ level (but not everywhere).  If our cadets are to be engaged in training operations with the cadet forces/organization of another country, then the OG107 is sufficient to identify them as canadian cadets as it is a familliar pattern in those countries.  CADPAT will never be a requirement, just a nice to have for the LCF.  FWIW I didn't see a single pair of combats or CADPAT on the latest cover of Cadence profiliing the Army Cadet international expedition, and I also don't have a problem with that.  The equipment they were issued for that activitiy while not military was top of the line gear appropriate to the training being conducted.  Our cadets are equiped for what they need at summer training, and at the LHQ our training is such that almost any clothing can be made suitable.  When we need the full-on CF kit (such as cold weather training) we can draw it from stores, and the rest of the time civilian kit is just as good or better for expeditions or our required field training.

 

[quadrapiper]

Quadrapiper, while I am no expert in any way shape or form I can draw from a great deal of different experience.  Cadets of any element do not need CADPAT, or combat clothing of any type for their field training (with the possible exception of range, with a big emphasis of possible).  As CIC officers and sworn members of the CF, we have a limited entitlement to the equipment and a need to properly represent the CF so we are issued with what we need to complete our various duties, our cadets do not have those same requirements.  Being a Naval cadet, you may not be aware of the direction of the army program to more expedition training where combat clothing is wholly inappropriate and, as you called it, unsuitable civvie gear is the recommended equipment for adventure training activities because it is simply better suited.  Cadets at NO TIME fit into the operational make-up of the CF despite your assertion that they MUST fit in somewhere.

If the program is to get a "Field uniform" I would prefer to see it come off the shelf of the likes of MEC to adapt to the realities of our field training.  While there is aneed to keep the "Army" in army cadets, that doesn't mean we need to always be in combats or ever in CADPAT.  The CSTC's have more than sufficient stocks of the OG107 to cover the needs of cadets on course when that gear is apporpriate or required, and I would be surprised if our cadets ever had a need for CADPAT beyond keeping an identity relationship to the CF.  For what it is worth, the CF has been more than accomodating in ensuring the bulk of the remaining OG107 has gone to the cadet program, and on occasssion even to the LHQ level (but not everywhere).  If our cadets are to be engaged in training operations with the cadet forces/organization of another country, then the OG107 is sufficient to identify them as canadian cadets as it is a familliar pattern in those countries.  CADPAT will never be a requirement, just a nice to have for the LCF.  FWIW I didn't see a single pair of combats or CADPAT on the latest cover of Cadence profiliing the Army Cadet international expedition, and I also don't have a problem with that.  The equipment they were issued for that activitiy while not military was top of the line gear appropriate to the training being conducted.  Our cadets are equiped for what they need at summer training, and at the LHQ our training is such that almost any clothing can be made suitable.  When we need the full-on CF kit (such as cold weather training) we can draw it from stores, and the rest of the time civilian kit is just as good or better for expeditions or our required field training.

If the program started issuing MEC gear, that would be cool - "unsuitable civvie clothing" meant exactly what it sounds like: street clothes.

Besides, as CIC officers, like the officers of any other portion of the CF, one of our jobs is to beg, plead, and otherwise make a case for the best possible gear and other resources for ouractivities.

Librarian: when you say "operational," do you mean all CF activities, or what might be otherwise referred to as deployments? If you mean the former, then cadets do, indeed, have to fall in there somewhere, as they occasionally do draw on CF stores; for example, the cold-weather gear mentioned by Sloaner, or NCDs for deployment onboard HMC Ships - which are issued through base stores. If you mean the latter, then clearly cadets don't qualify.

 

[armyvern]

Librarian: when you say "operational," do you mean all CF activities, or what might be otherwise referred to as deployments?

No I mean operational. As in conducting Operations. Field trg and cadet exercises are not conducting operations. They fall no where within the CFs operational priorities.

If you mean the former, then cadets do, indeed, have to fall in there somewhere, as they occasionally do draw on CF stores; for example, the cold-weather gear mentioned by Sloaner, or NCDs for deployment onboard HMC Ships - which are issued through base stores. If you mean the latter, then clearly cadets don't qualify.

A cadet being issued winter kit by clothing for example for a weekend winter field "ex"...is not operational. Much like when I temp loan sleeping bags to a certain High School for one of their big sports fests...doesn't make them operational or much like when we loan CF tentage to fundraising events such as the "Relay For Life" doesn't make those civilians who are participating operational.

And yes, if they are spending time on a CF ship, they would get NCDs...but only becuase it is required safety (ie flame retardant) clothing required for wear while shipboard. Just like if they came into my warehouse for a visit...I'd give them hardhats.

 

[quadrapiper]

No I mean operational. As in conducting Operations. Field trg and cadet exercises are not conducting operations. They fall no where within the CFs operational priorities.
A cadet being issued winter kit by clothing for example for a weekend winter field "ex"...is not operational. Much like when I temp loan sleeping bags to a certain High School for one of their big sports fests...doesn't make them operational or much like when we loan CF tentage to fundraising events such as the "Relay For Life" doesn't make those civilians who are participating operational.

And yes, if they are spending time on a CF ship, they would get NCDs...but only becuase it is required safety (ie flame retardant) clothing required for wear while shipboard. Just like if they came into my warehouse for a visit...I'd give them hardhats.

OK - so part of the arguement was misinterpretation on my part... sorry.

As far as cadets go - MEC-type gear for field training would be fantastic, with the caveat that much of it is outrageously overpriced and not built with a long service life in mind. After that, fresh-from-the-bag CF field gear, of whatever era, "should" (and I speak from the POV of someone wanting the absolute best for their chunk of the Forces world) be made readily available for non-summer training for cadets, after, of course, all other CF requirements for whatever it is are met. I really don't care whether "my" cadets are wearing OG, WWII battledress, CADPAT, MEC-type gear, or whatever, so long as it's uniform - the public, mind, do understand there is some sort of connection between cadets and the forces, so better that cadets are wearing Canadian gear - and the best possible for the training taking place.

So, a direct issue of boots, two pants, T-shirts, a coat, and suitable head-dress, if their unit headress isn't suitable for field use, with winter gear available "at need," for the Army and Air cadets, and workdress in the same quantities for Sea, with field gear available as needed.

Realistically, you know what would be an improvement? Giving cadets a direct line to purchase surplus clothing, via their unit stores officer, instead of paying through the nose at surplus joints.

 

[rwgill]

:deadhorse:

Wow!

Are Cadets issued CADPAT?  On a regular basis, NO.  There has been exceptions.  There is proof  that it has indeed been done.  Will it be done again in the futute?  I dunno.

Is there a requirement for Cadets to wear CADPAT?   There is a requirement, on occassion, for cadets to be issued a "field training uniform".  There is no need for it to be a camo, green or pink.  Please do not confuse CADPAT with a "field training uniform".

Are Cadets permitted to wear CADPAT?  Yes.  You can put all of your books of regulations away on this one.  Cadets are NOT issued a field training uniform for LHQ training.  Cadets DO conduct field training while at the LHQ.  Cadets must wear civilian clothing.  Once a piece of clothing is deemed "surplus", by the CF, it is civilian clothing.  Cadets can buy this stuff at the local surplus store and wear it.

IF Cadets were issued a field training uniform, then the CF could regulate it.  Currently it is not issued, so the CF can do nothing about it.

 

[Sloaner]

Amen to that RW

 

[Burrows]

And with that, I think we can lock this up.