MILITARY ATTRACTS VIOLENT LOUTS

[PPCLI Guy]

Well, I just read through all 69 pages.  I encourage all to at least read the conclusions and recommendations.

I found the report, on the whole, to be unsurprising - ie it confirmed what I intuitively believed to be the case.  I was surprised by the degree of differences between the rank levels, by the number of pers who placed troop safety ahead of the mission, and the extremity of views held by Cpls and by LCols.

All in all, an excellent report.  it is good to see some empirical analysis being conducted on something as important as Army Culture - especially given the importance of "Shaping Army Culture" as a line of operation, and more recently the overarching principle of "Soldiers First".

As to the media reports - it is a case of man bites dog...

Dave

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I just re-read the conclusions and still question the requirement for such a survey.  We've been inundated with surveys over the past few years and this one seemed to fulfill little purpose (IMHO), other than to reinforce impressions that serving members are likely to have gained over their time in.

The sample sizes are far too small to reach any real conclusions.  For example, a difference in opinions between rank levels cannot be accurately reflected in a survey that was only completed by 2 Cols and 15 LCols. 

My problem with the survey is that it reaches dramatic conclusions about various aspects of the Army and makes statements against those conclusions based on very little evidence.  Witness this:

With CROP survey findings that SQFT personnel are insular and somewhat
closed to outsiders, a transformational leader will be challenged to create the inspiring vision
required to motivate them for combat service outside of Canada.

Yike!  There's more (the comments about LFWA pers are "interesting"), but I couldn't managed to wade through the pseudo-intellectual babble that accompanies much of the report.

Again, I'm likely reflecting my "anti-survey" bias and am rounds expended on this one. 

Cheers,


TR

 

[Infanteer]

I think Teddy Ruxpin has struck a chord here with the "anti-survey" bias.

I remember getting a long and drawn out set of surveys (that we were forced to sit in and do) about QOL issues and deployment.   Perhaps we soldiers paid attention to the first one, but no one really tried to answer the next few and, when the final one was mailed to me, I simply threw it in the garbage.   Some of the inane questions on the survey aggravated alot of the rank-and-file troops.

Quite frankly, they wanted to see real leadership and progress and not another stupid survey on what problems we have - most soldiers will tell you what the problems are as they are staring right at us.

So, is this survey a solid piece of statistics?   Some have already commented on the sample selection.   As well, I've got to wonder how many troops filling this out played "have fun screwing with the survey" that my fellow soldiers seemed to delight in with the barrage of QOL questions we got....

 

[GO!!!]

Lets keep in mind who administers these surveys and how. I've filled out a few now, on a Friday at 1615, with the WO "encouraging" everyone to finish w/ max aggression so we can go home.

Anyone else remember the 51pg, 400Ques survey that was issued post Apollo - most guys I knew A-C-D-C the whole thing - because leave started as soon as you handed it in!

In addition, the shrinks love to ask questions to which there is no neutral answer - ie -

Do you feel angry at the world...
a -some of the time
b - most of the time
c - only when I'm sober
d - I have no feelings - only rages

Take it w/ a grain of salt.

BTW

Did anyone read the rpt in the Edmonton Journal that Soldiers in Quebec listed Peacekeeping and aide to civil power as the primary roles of the CF? A section pg 13 from the Canadian press.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I, for one, never felt alienated from Canadian society until after I was in the army.

CHIMO, Kat

 

[Brad Sallows]

After years of initiatives intended to make the CF more closely resemble the culture of dependence and self-gratification from which it is drawn, it begins in some respects to resemble the culture of dependence and self-gratification from which it is drawn.  Film at 11.

 

[TCBF]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"My favourite was "They are attracted to violence more than the average member of Canadian society and accept violence as a legitimate means of getting what they want." "

Sounds like the Army is a good place for them/us.   Might as well harness all that military potential.  
As far as   "accept violence as a legitimate means", well, that's why cops carry guns too, right?   Even Pierre Trudeau said "Just watch me!"

ps to "GO!"   Nice exit, I was always upside down by that point.

Tom

 

[Lazy W]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this... but does anyone know how to get a blood stain out

 

[TCBF]

Google "bloodstain removal" I assume you have a computer handy. 

Tom

 

[Nielsen_Noetic]

Canada is a fantastic nation; just thought I would throw that in.

 

[GO!!!]

All this survey talk makes me think of the ones where I submitted that I beat my wife, drank hourly, hated everyone (but white people of course) and the only thing holding me together was my riggers belt - maybe years of playing devil's advocate are catching up with us...

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Canada is a fantastic nation; just thought I would throw that in.

Umm and this has to do with the topic on hand how?

 

[Torlyn]

Umm and this has to do with the topic on hand how?

I'll go with a stab in the dark (uh oh...  stab...  Can I use that word, or is it too violent?) and say sweet bugger-all. 

T

 

[big_johnson1]

The article (actual, not media), doesn't seem that bad. I think that it makes some decent recommendations, and doesn't attack the common soldier, but seems interested in how to improve life for those in the lower ranks. Maybe if the WO's didn't rush people so much to finish their surveys, there might be a way to fix some of the problems that we all know exist in the forces. You ask for a voice, well, here is your opportunity. Quite frankly I'm tired of all the people coming on here that ask "how much will I get paid?" and "when do I get my gun?" and stuff like that, maybe the types that are attracted to the forces are different from those who joined up 20 years ago. I don't think this survey is going to help solve all the problems we face today, but maybe, some of the real issues can be dealt with at the lower levels of training, and we can strengthen the forces as a whole.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Check out page 23......oh boy if one was to make those sweeping generalizations about say racesexcreed, poop would be everywhere....

 

[Cloud Cover]

WOW!! Nothing intolerant about those statements as thet stand, eh?

 

[Pte. Bloggins]

I would reply to this post, but I'm supposed to go sing Kumbaya while sitting around a campfire, then I'm off to feed starving orphans and hug a few trees. Oh, and then bottle-feed a baby kitten back to health. Maybe this is the type of army our government would rather see.  :

 

[Slim]

I'd love to have a survey of reporters and the media personel that creat the headlines these days...

Wouldn't that make for some interesting reading! :

Slim

 

[TCBF]

"Canada is a fantastic nation; just thought I would throw that in." - Thanks for coming out.

"Kumbaya" - many years ago we sang some pretty rowdy lyrics to that song.  Alas, soldiers now pay others to do their singing for them.

Q:  "Some of the old songs, Hans?"
A:  "Nein, nein, ze war ist over..."

These polls always look bad, until you compare them to the average population - the target population - that our pay and benefits package is designed to attract.  They share the same ignorant sentiments as we do.  There is no hidden "Military Gene". 

I loved the Psych interviews after Op APOLLO.    Talk about a bureaucracy trying to drum up business..

Tom

 

[daniel h.]

I'm personally not a CF member and am much less right-wing than many people on this site but I think that you are being awfully kind to the people who did this article. Talk about stereotypes. I personally know CF members, and some of them are very brilliant academically. The CF is not a haven for idiots as some militaries are. They may be angry at the world at times--mostly because it disappoints them.

I found this to be the typical politically correct crap we get these days. Shame on you for having traditional values. Shame on you for opposing affirmative action. Shame on you for having your own opinion.

After hearing about what military life is like from friends, I can tell you that most people are 50 times lazier than CF members.

Never let the PC internationalists ruin your spirit. They are awful, and they will eventually lose their smear campaign.

I found this especially disturbing:

"They also tend to consider national superiority to be important and to see themselves as superior to foreigners," says the report. "These attitudes and values may, at times, result in conflict with <Canadian> values as expressed in the <Canadian> Charter of Rights and Freedoms."   But we are my god what are they thinking we would have it no other way."


Why don't the people let us decide what we think. Nationalism can be good--look south for an example of nationalism. At least their leaders care about their country, as imperfect as it may be. Europe was built on nationalism.

I don't care if this was a survey--those were leading questions. In a democracy we can think what we like and if people don't like it they can eat worms.

-I don't want pussy-willows defending Canada--go CF.