Manitoba bus stabbing/ beheading

[Eye In The Sky]

I am the least PC guy you will ever meet. "inocent until proven guilty" is not something that is PC.

He will have his day in court, get over it.

Innocent until proven guilty...IMO is based somewhat on the 'reasonable doubt' idea within our legal system, that one must be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.  I don't see any doubt in this case...do you? 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Yup.............I didn't witness it.

 

[aesop081]

  I don't see any doubt in this case...do you? 

Hes been charged with second degree murder. I'm sure that the crown will brove that he is guilty of THAT beyond a reasonable doubt. None the less, the crown has to prove that he did not do it as a result of mental defect or other circumstances. If i follow your logic, theres no need for an investigation.

:

 

[Neill McKay]

Is there anyone that REALLY is going to debate whether he did it or not, or that it was some magic bus gremlins and this POS is taking the fall for them?

Likely not, but there may well be some debate over whether or not his mental condition allows him to make sensible decisions and his eventual sentence may be reflected in the outcome of that.

 

[aesop081]

As flawed as our justice system is, i will take one that starts with "inocent until proven guilty" over a system that carts you off as guilty until you can someohow manage to prove that you are not, any day of the week.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Hes been charged with second degree murder. I'm sure that the crown will brove that he is guilty of THAT beyond a reasonable doubt. None the less, the crown has to prove that he did not do it as a result of mental defect or other circumstances. If i follow your logic, theres no need for an investigation.
:

I think what I am saying is there is no doubt that he did it, rather than why he did it.  I can't comment on the why, or if he is fit to stand trial, etc.  Even if he is found not criminally responsible due to being mentally whatever, he still DID it.  Its not like when the Mounties rolled up there was him and 2 others in the bus, and they are all saying "I didn't do it!" and now a lengthy investigation and trial will follow.

Likely not, but there may well be some debate over whether or not his mental condition allows him to make sensible decisions and his eventual sentence may be reflected in the outcome of that.

Agreed, per my reply above.  I won't speculate on the why part, of if he is legally responsible, etc.  None of that will change the fact that he did it, though. 

As flawed as our justice system is, i will take one that starts with "inocent until proven guilty" over a system that carts you off as guilty until you can someohow manage to prove that you are not, any day of the week.

Come on now, thats not what I said.  I said in this case, I think we can drop the use of the word "allegedly" WRT if he did it or not.  You're not really going to sit here and suggest that perhaps someone else did the act, are you?  If you want to take a stance in opposition of mine, fine but please don't have me saying things I never said.

Regardless of that, I still feel sorrow for the family that must try to come to terms with their loss but can't say I support this avenue of legal action they are pursuing; it won't change what happened and I don't see any reasonable way to ensure it doesn't happen ever again.

 

[aesop081]

Its not like when the Mounties rolled up there was him and 2 others in the bus, and they are all saying "I didn't do it!" and now a lengthy investigation and trial will follow.

Have you ever been to a trial ?

Alot of trial doesnt deal with who did it but why and under what circumstances. Hes been chaged with second degree murder but is he guilty of that or is he guilty of something else or is he "not guilty by reason of mental defect" ?

You have no clue, thus the need for "inocent until proven guilty".

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Have you ever been to a trial ?

Yes.

Alot of trial doesnt deal with who did it but why and under what circumstances. Hes been chaged with second degree murder but is he guilty of that or is he guilty of something else or is he "not guilty by reason of mental defect" ?

You have no clue, thus the need for "inocent until proven guilty".

In my mind (and probably 99% of people familiar with what happened), there is no doubt it was he who committed the act.  The rest of the legal mumbo-jumbo, I'll leave to the lawyers.  In our society, it can be factual that he committed the act; his guilt of the charges laid against him are what the courts will decide.  2 seperate issues to me, and I never commented on the guilt or innocence of the man of the charges, only that he is the one who did the killing.  I don't see any information contrary to the fact.  I don't understand all the legalities of mental defect and such, so I stay away from making comments on his guilt of the charges.

 

[aesop081]

In my mind (and probably 99% of people familiar with what happened), there is no doubt it was he who committed the act. 

Theres no doubt in my mind that he is the one who caused the death of the victim. Even his lawyer (IMHO) wouldnt say that hes not the one. That fact is hardly in dispute.

That and wether he is guilty or not of the charges against him are not seperate issues.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Theres no doubt in my mind that he is the one who caused the death of the victim. Even his lawyer (IMHO) wouldnt say that hes not the one. That fact is hardly in dispute.

Which is what I meant in my original post today...although I was alittle ticked off when I wrote it seeing the word "alleged"...hence my little rant in mid-post.

I have no opinion if he is guilty and leave that to our courts.

 

[aesop081]

although I was alittle ticked off when I wrote it seeing the word "alleged"...

Why ?

He is alledged to have commited 2nd degree murder. This has not been proven yet.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Trucker told police to shoot man in beheading
Updated Wed. Sep. 3 2008 9:54 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

A truck driver who ran to help Greyhound bus passengers fleeing the brutal attack that killed Tim McLean this summer says he told police to shoot the alleged assailant.

It was from this article, actually.

 

[old medic]

Given that this defendant has a medical condition that makes him an economic burden on Canada,
I suggest a review of his citizenship application should now begin, to determine if there
is cause to revoke his Canadian citizenship and send him back to China.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/news-nouv/nr-cp/2007/doc_32019.html

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/01/20/mason-uk.html


Bus beheading verdict due Thursday
By DEAN PRITCHARD, Sun Media  4th March 2009
http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/manitoba/2009/03/04/8627041.html

Lawyers for Vincent Li and the Crown joined together this morning to urge a judge to find the accused not criminally responsible for the gruesome slaying of Tim McLean aboard a Greyhound bus.

"The Crown can not ask this court to convict Mr. Li of second-degree murder when all the evidence points to the conclusion he was not criminally responsible for his actions," said Crown attorney Joyce Dalmyn this morning.

Dalmyn expressed sympathy for the pain suffered by McLean's family, but said the Crown cannot "take their direction" in determining an appropriate verdict.

McLean's family members have been vocal in their call that Li be convicted of murder and sentenced to life in custody.

Outside court, McLean's mother said she told reporters she was disappointed by the Crown's position, and described the trial as a "rubber stamp process."

"We knew going in that this was very likely what was going to take place," said Carol deDelley.

"The laws are grossly inadequate in circumstances like this. NCR may have its place or may be correct in some circumstances. I don't think so, not in this one. And now every year we will have to undergo a review to ensure the public is safe from Mr. Li."

Two forensic psychiatrists have testified Li suffers from schizophrenia and was under the thrall of auditory hallucinations when he stabbed, dismembered and decapitated McLean. The psychiatrists testified Li believed he was receiving directions from God to kill McLean. Li believed McLean was an "evil force" who would murder Li if Li did not strike first.

The Crown and defence are asking that Li remain in secure custody in the psychiatric ward of Health Sciences Centre until a hearing can be scheduled before the mental health review board.

Justice John Scurfield adjourned court and will deliver his verdict tomorrow morning. Scurfield said he wanted time to review medical reports in the case and set down his verdict in writing.

"Hopefully (I can) express it in a way that is understandable to Mr. McLean's family, Mr. Li and and the public in general," Scurfield said.

 

[Sheerin]

Li has been found to not be criminally responsible for his actions

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/03/05/mb-li-verdict.html

Greyhound bus killer found not criminally responsible
Vince Li has been found not criminally responsible in the unprovoked killing and beheading of fellow passenger Timothy McLean on a Greyhound bus last summer.

Manitoba Court of Queen's Bench Judge John Scurfield said Thursday that Li, 40, could not be found guilty of murder and is not criminally responsible for the crime because he was mentally ill at the time of the killing.

"These grotesque acts are appalling... but are suggestive of a mental disorder," the judge said.

"He did not appreciate the act he committed was wrong."

Li had pleaded not guilty to a charge of second-degree murder. Psychiatric evidence at his trial suggested he is a schizophrenic who suffered a major psychotic episode last July 30 when he stabbed McLean, 22, to death, ate some of the young victim's body parts and cut off McLean's head.

For five hours after the killing Li wandered around on the bus, from which passengers had fled onto a lonely stretch of Manitoba highway, defiling the body while an RCMP tactical team waited to subdue him.

Rather than go to prison, Li will be kept in a secure psychiatric facility, most likely in Selkirk, Man.

McLean, a carnival worker, was returning home to Winnipeg on the bus from Edmonton. Listening to his iPod while sitting in the back row of Greyhound bus 1170, he gave Li a friendly greeting as the stranger sat down beside him.

Then, around 8:30 p.m. CT, when the bus was near Portage La Prairie, Man., Li pulled a buck knife from his side and began stabbing the young man — for no apparent reason, witnesses said. Passengers fled the bus and RCMP were called as Li was barricaded inside the vehicle.

During the stabbing Li was heard to say, "get emergency." In a five-hour standoff with RCMP, Li severed McLean's head from his body, ate some body parts and stuffed other parts into plastic bags that he put in his pockets. He wandered around the bus carrying the severed head in one hand, the knife in the other. At one point he threw the severed head into the bus's stairwell.

When police finally subdued him, Li repeatedly said he was sorry but could not say what he was sorry for, officers said. He told police he had changed his name to Vince Day. And on one occasion he told police, "I'm guilty, please kill me."

In his trial this week, psychiatrists said Li was schizophrenic and suffering a major psychotic episode at the time of the frenzied killing.

Li heard voices from God telling him that McLean was an evil threat that needed to be eliminated, the psychiatrists said. Even after the killing, Li believed McLean might come back to life and threaten him. The psychiatrists testified Li fit the criteria as someone who was not criminally responsible for their actions due to mental illness.

That means he will be sent to a provincial psychiatric facility rather than to prison. He comes under the jurisdiction of Manitoba's provincial review board, which will decide whether he poses a risk to the public. The review board has the power to keep Li locked up indefinitely or, if he is no longer considered a risk, discharge him.

McLean's family had been lobbying for a change in the Criminal Code to prevent mentally ill killers from being released back into the community. His mother, Carol de Delley, has said that regardless of the verdict, she would do everything in her power to ensure Li is never released from secure custody.

 

[old medic]

This article is a day old, I believe it helps demonstrate Li's mental condition before he came to Canada.

Man who brutally killed fellow bus passenger ’reclusive’ but ’decent’ person
2009-03-04
By THE CANADIAN PRESS
a copy located at :  http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/National/2009/03/04/8631001.html

WINNIPEG — He will be forever remembered as the man who shocked the world by brutally beheading a sleeping fellow passenger aboard a Greyhound bus bound for Winnipeg last July.

But to those who knew Vince Li, he was a decent, respectful new Canadian with a strong work ethic whose mental illness ended up consuming him.

“He presents a paradox,” said Stanley Yaren, a Winnipeg psychiatrist who has interviewed Li more than 19 times since his arrest. “He’s a gentle, polite, decent person . . . Why does someone like that carry out such a brutal and horrendous act?”

That paradox is evident in reports entered into evidence at Li’s second-degree murder trial, which wrapped up Wednesday in Winnipeg .

Li was born in Dandong City in northeastern China on April 30, 1968, into a middle-class family. He arrived one month premature and was a sickly child until his teenage years.


Li — the middle child in the family — was a late bloomer, according to his father. He didn’t start talking or walking until several years after his peers and was late starting school as well.

Despite his slow start, Li was a good student with high grades.

There was some unusual behaviour though.

Li wet his bed until he was 18 and was given medication. He “could never settle down” and was reclusive, studying at home or taking apart the family’s electronics.

“It was problematic in the household insofar as he was unsuccessful in returning them to their original state,” states Li’s psychiatric assessment.

Li went on to university where he obtained a bachelor of science degree. He didn’t have any girlfriends to speak of until he met his future wife Ana while working at a Beijing factory in 1992 shortly after his graduation. They were married in 1995 and Li started talking about moving to Canada.

The two immigrated in 2001, settling in Winnipeg.

“I chose Winnipeg, it’s in the middle of the Canada from a geographic position, and apartment rents are lower than all other Canadian cities,” Li told a psychiatrist.

He worked a series of menial jobs: “chopping meat” at McDonald’s; working at a warehouse; cleaning up around a church. He sometimes worked two jobs at a time, but never managed to hold down a job for very long.

Li didn’t drink much, never used drugs or never lashed out violently in any way.

But in 2004, his wife said he started “acting weird” and didn’t sleep or eat regularly.

“He cried a lot and told me he saw God and I thought he was just tired so I bought him sleeping pills from Shoppers Drug Mart but that didn’t work too well,” she told one of Li’s psychiatrist.

Li said he heard someone talking to him.

“I didn’t pay attention, just thought he was tired and I took some time off work and stayed with him,” his wife said. “He’s not a people-person, always had trouble dealing with people and knowing how to survive in society.”

Things got tense in 2005 and Li moved to Thompson, Man., but he told his wife he was in Toronto. He eventually made his way to the Ontario capital while she moved to Edmonton.

“I thought it would be easy to find a job in Toronto so I went there from Winnipeg,” Li told a psychiatrist. “I failed to find a job, then God’s voice told me to go back to Winnipeg. I’m not sure if God’s voice told me to walk back so I started walking on the highway; I threw out my luggage after God told me to do that.”

Li was picked up by the Ontario Provincial Police walking along Highway 427, “following the sun.” He was hospitalized briefly at William Osler Health Centre in Etobicoke, said to be “uncommunicative and in a catatonic state.” He was diagnosed with schizophrenia and was given medication but he left the hospital in denial.

“I didn’t think I had a problem,” Li said. “I didn’t think I was sick.”

Following instructions from God, Li started carrying a knife for “protection from evil forces.”

The couple decided to divorce in 2005 and returned to Beijing for the proceedings.

Li stayed with his parents for a month. He was irritable, picked fights and behaved strangely, subsisting on potatoes and selling his childhood books.

He returned to Canada and moved in with his ex-wife in Edmonton.

He returned in June 2008 to “find a wife,” but he baffled his family by leaving for Edmonton the following day when he was “unsuccessful.”

Li worked in Edmonton at a tire lube shop, at a Wal-Mart and he delivered newspapers.

But he continued acting strangely — disappearing for periods of time, laughing at inappropriate times and talking to himself. He thought about suicide, saying “lots of times God’s voice asked me to kill myself because I didn’t follow his word.”

But Li listened when the voice told him in July 2008 to “leave Ana, go find a new job, have an independent life, leave now.”

He bought a bus ticket to Winnipeg on God’s instruction and left a note for Ana.

“I’m gone. Don’t look for me. I wish you were happy.”

 

[ModlrMike]

This is a clear case of why the law has to be reviewed. In Britain, there is a verdict of guilty but insane. I firmly believe, and have done so for years, that Canada should have the same sort of verdict. It would certainly reduce the numbers of false claims of insanity, and perhaps not only would survivors have some form of closure, the truly insane would get help.

 

[Blackadder1916]

This is a clear case of why the law has to be reviewed. In Britain, there is a verdict of guilty but insane. I firmly believe, and have done so for years, that Canada should have the same sort of verdict. It would certainly reduce the numbers of false claims of insanity, and perhaps not only would survivors have some form of closure, the truly insane would get help.

I don't believe that such a verdict currently exists in British law, as is indicated in the following.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1999/en/ukpgaen_19990025_en_1

Criminal Cases Review (Insanity) Act 1999

EXPLANATORY NOTES

SUMMARY

3.    The Act enables the Criminal Cases Review Commission to refer to the Court of Appeal a verdict of "guilty but insane" under the Trial of Lunatics Act 1883 and gives the Court of Appeal powers to hear and dispose of an appeal on such a reference. Although the verdict of guilty but insane was abolished in the 1960s there may still be a small number of people who were the subject of such a verdict and would like to have it reconsidered by the Court of Appeal.

 

[ModlrMike]

That's too bad. Clearly, I've not kept up with the British judical changes. Notwithstanding, I still maintian that Canada would be well served by such a verdict. To my mind, guilt and insanity are not mutally exclusive. I wonder though, what argument would opponents to such a finding make?

 

[PMedMoe]

Picking at old wounds here......

Hearing concerned with Vincent Li's comfort
Article Link
By TOM BRODBECK, The Winnipeg Sun

WINNIPEG -- Now that psycho-killer Vince Li has had his day in court before a sympathetic Criminal Code review board, perhaps we could now convene a hearing for the family of Tim McLean to scope out what needs they have and how the state can help them, too.

Monday's hearing was all about Vince Li -- what he needs, how much better he's doing mentally, how he requested and received a Chinese Bible and what kind of facility he should be housed in.

The review board was very concerned about Mr. Li's feelings and how he may be react if Tim McLean's family read their victim impact statements in front of him in a courtroom Monday. It might hurt his feelings, they thought.

But psychiatrist Stanley Yaren, Li's shrink and advocate, told the board Monday he thought Li would be OK with it. That's super.

No one asked the family how they would feel if they were robbed of the opportunity to make their victim impact statements in front of Li.

After all, this was all about Mr. Li and making sure he's comfortable, not the family. The review board is concerned mostly with ensuring Li is in a good facility with a pleasant environment, where he can watch movies and play cards.

They're also concerned the 24/7 supervision of Li by two correctional officers may now be excessive. Better stop that. It might infringe on Mr. Li's dignity.

So now that we've done all this, shouldn't we turn our attention to the family? They're getting virtually no help or support from the justice system, even though -- through no fault of their own -- they are now in a crisis situation.

And compared with Li, who has round-the-clock support, free meals, medication and nice running shoes, the family is getting next to nothing.

Carol deDelley, Tim McLean's mother, used to drive a school bus before her son was killed.

She had to leave that job, at least for now, and is on long-term disability. She can't drive the school kids anymore because she doesn't have the confidence nor the level of concentration required to perform that very important job.

Her long-term disability pays only half of what she was earning. Anybody going to help out Ms. deDelley, whose life has been turned upside down by this nightmare?

There's lots of help for poor Mr. Li. But there's not much for the family, who are the real victims here.

Perhaps we should have a hearing to determine what kind of support Tim McLean's family should get, including financial support and crisis intervention.

The family was denied standing at Li's hearing. Maybe we could have one where the family gets standing and Li's lawyers don't so we could hear from them and get their input on the situation, including what should happen to Li.

Our justice system is so hopelessly focused on the offender, it excludes almost entirely the needs of the victims and their families.

It was repugnant watching Li's shrink and his lawyer fawning all over him Monday, making sure he was comfortable as family members sat there, shut out of the proceedings and forced to read censored versions of their victim impact statements.

It was obscene.

The least the justice system could do now is hold a hearing for the family to canvass their views and to identify their needs.

I'm not holding my breath.

For more, visit Brodbeck's blog Raise a Little Hell at winnipegsun.com.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Just another day in the *cough* Justice system.............not even remotely news to those who work it.