Majority of Afghans want ISAF soldiers to stay!
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Results from an unprecedented public opinion poll of the Afghan people taken by Environics Research couldn’t have come at a worse time for Canadian Liberal leader Stephane Dion, NDP chief Jack Layton, and all others in Canada calling for our troops to leave Afghanistan post-haste.....http://lpsullivan.blogspot.com/2007/10/afghanistan-opinion-poll-silences-cut.html
medicineman
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I'm sure they and or their spin doctors will find a way to put the results in a negative light or discredit the data.
MM
MM
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They already havemedicineman said:
"NDP defence critic Dawn Black, whose party favours an immediate pullout of Canadian troops, said the poll doesn't match what she's been hearing out of Afghanistan.
"I find some of the numbers quite shocking and surprising," she said."
(source: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/10/19/poll-reaction.html)
Doesn't match what SHE heard, eh? Hmm.....I guess she hears a lot from "over there"......:
medicineman
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My MP is an NDP regurgitator as well - the two together are neck in neck for Linda Blair look a likes of the year with the stuff that comes out of their mouths.
MM
MM
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Opposition Key Messaging:
"Don't confuse us with thefacts polls - our minds are made up."
"Don't confuse us with the
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And another example, shared with the usual disclaimer....
Afghan poll not as clear as it seems
Thomas Walkom, Toronto Star, 21 Oct 07
Article link
Do ordinary Afghans want Canada to stay in Kandahar until the Taliban is defeated?
Initial reports of an Environics survey released Thursday suggest the answer is a strong yes. "Majority of Afghans want foreign troops to stay and fight" was The Globe and Mail's headline.
Analysts argued that the poll results, based on interviews conducted last month in the war-torn country, would bolster Prime Minister Stephen Harper's efforts to keep Canadian troops fighting in Kandahar past February 2009.
But when the poll is examined more carefully (it's available at http://erg.environics.net), its findings become far less definitive. Indeed, it is not clear that they provide solace to any of the politicians now debating Canada's Afghan mission.
First, let us be clear about what the survey did not find. It did not find that a majority of Afghans want foreign troops to stay and fight. It did find that a majority of those polled approved of the "presence of foreign countries" in Afghanistan.
But that term "presence" included everything foreigners are doing in the country, from aid to business to soldiering.
In Kandahar, for instance, India was rated more highly than Canada. But, as the survey notes, India's main contribution there is not troops but goods and entrepreneurs.
On the question of foreign troops, the poll concluded that Afghans are split down the middle – with 52 per cent calling for a full withdrawal within five years versus 43 per cent who want NATO to stay until the Taliban are crushed.
In short, the vast majority of Afghans don't want us to keep fighting in their country until, as Harper puts it, the job is done. Yet neither, it seems, do they favour those, like the New Democrats, who would pull out Canadian troops immediately, or even those, like the Liberals, who would have us end our combat role by 2009.
Elsewhere, the poll results are equally murky. On the one hand, the survey shows that close to three quarters of Afghans do not like the Taliban – thereby strengthening Harper's pro-war argument.
Yet at the same time, 74 per cent say they want their government to negotiate with the Taliban, which is the NDP position.
And more than half say they want to be ruled by a coalition government that includes the Taliban.
Assuming that it is possible to carry out a scientific poll in a country wracked by civil war, what then does this survey tell us?
One, it demonstrates that Afghans do not want to be abandoned by the world again. Hence the overwhelming desire for a continued "foreign presence." Two, while they do not like the Taliban, neither do they demonize them – which is why most would prefer a negotiated end to civil war over continued violence.
Three, they are deeply ambivalent about the presence of foreign troops. They don't want to throw them out. But, at the same time, they are not sure they want them to remain indefinitely. There is a limit to their patience and hospitality.
Finally, the survey provides a rather humbling insight into how Afghans view Canada's military role. The short answer is that they don't. Even in Kandahar, just 2 per cent of those polled knew that Canada was fighting the Taliban. Germany got a bigger mention and it has no troops there.
When Afghans were asked specifically about Canada, most were delightfully complimentary. But first they had to be reminded we were there. One hopes they weren't just being polite.
Afghan poll not as clear as it seems
Thomas Walkom, Toronto Star, 21 Oct 07
Article link
Do ordinary Afghans want Canada to stay in Kandahar until the Taliban is defeated?
Initial reports of an Environics survey released Thursday suggest the answer is a strong yes. "Majority of Afghans want foreign troops to stay and fight" was The Globe and Mail's headline.
Analysts argued that the poll results, based on interviews conducted last month in the war-torn country, would bolster Prime Minister Stephen Harper's efforts to keep Canadian troops fighting in Kandahar past February 2009.
But when the poll is examined more carefully (it's available at http://erg.environics.net), its findings become far less definitive. Indeed, it is not clear that they provide solace to any of the politicians now debating Canada's Afghan mission.
First, let us be clear about what the survey did not find. It did not find that a majority of Afghans want foreign troops to stay and fight. It did find that a majority of those polled approved of the "presence of foreign countries" in Afghanistan.
But that term "presence" included everything foreigners are doing in the country, from aid to business to soldiering.
In Kandahar, for instance, India was rated more highly than Canada. But, as the survey notes, India's main contribution there is not troops but goods and entrepreneurs.
On the question of foreign troops, the poll concluded that Afghans are split down the middle – with 52 per cent calling for a full withdrawal within five years versus 43 per cent who want NATO to stay until the Taliban are crushed.
In short, the vast majority of Afghans don't want us to keep fighting in their country until, as Harper puts it, the job is done. Yet neither, it seems, do they favour those, like the New Democrats, who would pull out Canadian troops immediately, or even those, like the Liberals, who would have us end our combat role by 2009.
Elsewhere, the poll results are equally murky. On the one hand, the survey shows that close to three quarters of Afghans do not like the Taliban – thereby strengthening Harper's pro-war argument.
Yet at the same time, 74 per cent say they want their government to negotiate with the Taliban, which is the NDP position.
And more than half say they want to be ruled by a coalition government that includes the Taliban.
Assuming that it is possible to carry out a scientific poll in a country wracked by civil war, what then does this survey tell us?
One, it demonstrates that Afghans do not want to be abandoned by the world again. Hence the overwhelming desire for a continued "foreign presence." Two, while they do not like the Taliban, neither do they demonize them – which is why most would prefer a negotiated end to civil war over continued violence.
Three, they are deeply ambivalent about the presence of foreign troops. They don't want to throw them out. But, at the same time, they are not sure they want them to remain indefinitely. There is a limit to their patience and hospitality.
Finally, the survey provides a rather humbling insight into how Afghans view Canada's military role. The short answer is that they don't. Even in Kandahar, just 2 per cent of those polled knew that Canada was fighting the Taliban. Germany got a bigger mention and it has no troops there.
When Afghans were asked specifically about Canada, most were delightfully complimentary. But first they had to be reminded we were there. One hopes they weren't just being polite.
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Reality check: Yes the Afghan people want us to stay. Everybody in this forum and those with knowledge of the situation in Afghanistan know how valuable our work and sacrifice is.
But...how long will the Canadian people accept the casualties and cost?
I can't see this going on for the 10 to 15 years some say is needed.
But...how long will the Canadian people accept the casualties and cost?
I can't see this going on for the 10 to 15 years some say is needed.
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In Hoc,
+1
I have not seen a significant skew in what I have seen on CBC.
What skews perception is what we don't see.
The reason I started spending time here is I suspected I wasn't
getting the whole story.........Boy was I right.
Yes, I think the media and the CBC in perticular have some soul
searching to do. Their own commercial interests are at stake.
I wouldn't do to miss the parade on Main st. would it? ;D
Sboatright,
What this demonstrates is a "values" based platform and set of
beliefs rather than a "facts" based platform and set of beliefs.
The rhetoric sounds noble - it's not. Particularly in the case of Stephane Dion.
The only reason Dion wants out is because Harper wants in.
This is a policy reversal without a purpose. - real leadership eh?
+1
I have not seen a significant skew in what I have seen on CBC.
What skews perception is what we don't see.
The reason I started spending time here is I suspected I wasn't
getting the whole story.........Boy was I right.
Yes, I think the media and the CBC in perticular have some soul
searching to do. Their own commercial interests are at stake.
I wouldn't do to miss the parade on Main st. would it? ;D
Sboatright,
What this demonstrates is a "values" based platform and set of
beliefs rather than a "facts" based platform and set of beliefs.
The rhetoric sounds noble - it's not. Particularly in the case of Stephane Dion.
The only reason Dion wants out is because Harper wants in.
This is a policy reversal without a purpose. - real leadership eh?
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I don't think I've EVER seen a poll result that someone couldn't
say that about. It's what get published on the subject, the
analysis that's important. If the G&M are willing to say what
they said in their headline then that's the truth for many of us.
What's simply amazing to me is how this result has produced
so much embarrasment for CBC, the Liberal party etc.
Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside............ ;D
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It's amazing how the anti-war left is in full manic mode over this opinion poll. This, added to the downward spiral of the career of one Mr. Dion has the usual suspects in a tizzy. Check out the latest from the articles comment section:
http://lpsullivan.blogspot.com/2007/10/afghanistan-opinion-poll-silences-cut.html
http://lpsullivan.blogspot.com/2007/10/afghanistan-opinion-poll-silences-cut.html
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Munxcub said:
Option 3: Ignore it.
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(*)warning - this is a light hearted post, I repeat this is a light hearted post. (*)
Have you ever seen a show called Family Feud? I just had a thought for a funny skit on 'This hour has 22 minutes'.
The host asks "Question: how are are troops viewed in Afghanistan"
NDP buzz in "Immoral foreign invaders who are there only to serve the right wing political agenda of Bush and the military industrial complex"
Host replies "I'm sorry Jack, that answer is not on the board. Dion it is your turn"
Liberal "Foreign invaders who have no Business in Iraq."
Host replies: " Okay... that wasn't on the board either... but 12 % do view us as foreign invaders so I'm giving that to the Grits"
.... the show continues on for 20 minutes without another point being scored. It climaxes with both sides screaming at the host because they refuse to accept the poll results.
I still love how the CBC was "surprised" by the results. And I love how the NDP's solution to the "problem" that we're spending more on military missions than humanitarian aid is to reduce the amount we're spending on the military mission. (rather than increasing the amount of aid we give - which I think would be usefull)
(*)warning - this was a light hearted post, I repeat this was a light hearted post. (*)
Have you ever seen a show called Family Feud? I just had a thought for a funny skit on 'This hour has 22 minutes'.
The host asks "Question: how are are troops viewed in Afghanistan"
NDP buzz in "Immoral foreign invaders who are there only to serve the right wing political agenda of Bush and the military industrial complex"
Host replies "I'm sorry Jack, that answer is not on the board. Dion it is your turn"
Liberal "Foreign invaders who have no Business in Iraq."
Host replies: " Okay... that wasn't on the board either... but 12 % do view us as foreign invaders so I'm giving that to the Grits"
.... the show continues on for 20 minutes without another point being scored. It climaxes with both sides screaming at the host because they refuse to accept the poll results.
I still love how the CBC was "surprised" by the results. And I love how the NDP's solution to the "problem" that we're spending more on military missions than humanitarian aid is to reduce the amount we're spending on the military mission. (rather than increasing the amount of aid we give - which I think would be usefull)
(*)warning - this was a light hearted post, I repeat this was a light hearted post. (*)
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The local left leaning paper's (Yukon News) editor wrote an editorial saying that a poll in a backward country couldn't possibly be accurate, then insinuated that it was done at gunpoint, and finished by calling it "national propaganda by the public broadcaster". Utter crap.
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Here's a survey done for the arch-imperialists (USAID) that has results rather similar to the Environics poll. Environics must be in a conspiracy with the Asia Foundation.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/23/asia/AS-GEN-Afghan-Survey.php
Survey itself here:
http://www.asiafoundation.org/Locations/afghanistan_survey2.html
A couple of points from the story about the Foundation survey:
Mark
Ottawa
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/23/asia/AS-GEN-Afghan-Survey.php
Survey itself here:
http://www.asiafoundation.org/Locations/afghanistan_survey2.html
A couple of points from the story about the Foundation survey:
Mark
Ottawa
McG
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I caught Scott Taylor commenting on the issue on CTV when I woke this morning. I won't get into his point about the public rarely hearing the badnews out of Afghanistan around all of the good news. However, I do wonder if he understands polling. He criticized this one for being talking to a small random cross-section of Afghans. Well, smaller means that there is less accuracy but random is exactly what you want. However, he accepts previous polls which show higher acceptance of the mission & then declares that ISAF is rapidly falling in favour. However, how can he accept older polls conducted the same way as the current poll he rejects? Additionally, this was the first poll to get to all parts of Afghanistan. All the previous polls would have been like polling Canada while leaving out a province or two, but still declaring the poll to be representative of the nation. There is nothing to suggest support has dropped, because we know the parts of Afghanistan which were previously excluded are also the parts of Afghanistan with the most TB supporters.
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MCG,
Could it be the guy has an agenda?
What you said here hints at it all right.
What he's trying to do is obfuscate the very things pro-mission commenters would say
directly. If two talking heads say the exact opposite then both are discredited.
He's not trying to win an argument so much as trying not to lose one.
Pretty weaselly tactic if you ask me.
Is "weaselly" a word? Is it the right word? ;D
Could it be the guy has an agenda?
What you said here hints at it all right.
What he's trying to do is obfuscate the very things pro-mission commenters would say
directly. If two talking heads say the exact opposite then both are discredited.
He's not trying to win an argument so much as trying not to lose one.
Pretty weaselly tactic if you ask me.
Is "weaselly" a word? Is it the right word? ;D
Afghan poll opened eyes
Positivity no surprise to soldiers
By PETER WORTHINGTON, TORONTO SUN
Article Link
If the CBC had known that a public opinion poll it co-sponsored in Afghanistan would turn out the way it did, you can be assured the CBC wouldn't have had anything to do with it.
Conducted by Environics, the poll probes the attitude of Afghans towards Canadian troops -- both in the Kandahar region, where our guys are fighting the Taliban, and throughout the country.
Only 15% of Afghans wanted Canadian troops to leave immediately; the greater proportion of 80% wanted them to remain until the Taliban was crushed.
Among those admitting surprise in a CBC interview at the favourable opinion towards our soldiers was Janice Gross Stein, professor of conflict management in the University of Toronto's political science department and co-author of The Unexpected War: Canada on Kandahar.
The CBC and others also seem surprised that Afghan women were more positive about the future than men and appreciated the Canadians. Women were also more "negative" about the Taliban than Afghan men.
That's a surprise? Under the Taliban, women couldn't go to school; weren't allowed to be seen in public; were condemned to the burqa; could be beaten if they showed flesh; under Sharia law, adultery entailed stoning to death. In short, the Taliban, like Islam, is male oriented and male dominated.
The only ones not surprised at the poll were ... wait for it -- Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan and, possibly, members of the Harper government who have been to Afghanistan and tested the mood of the country.
UNENCUMBERED
And, of course, journalists if they are unencumbered with preconceived notions --unlike Jack Layton, the NDP and Liberal Leader Stephane Dion.
As if hoping to deflate poll results, a Toronto Star story under the headline "Afghan poll not as clear as it seems," noted that the majority of those polled approved of the presence of foreign troops, but not necessarily in a fighting role. India was rated higher than Canada in Kandahar --maybe because it was supplying goods and business opportunities, not soldiers.
More on link
Positivity no surprise to soldiers
By PETER WORTHINGTON, TORONTO SUN
Article Link
If the CBC had known that a public opinion poll it co-sponsored in Afghanistan would turn out the way it did, you can be assured the CBC wouldn't have had anything to do with it.
Conducted by Environics, the poll probes the attitude of Afghans towards Canadian troops -- both in the Kandahar region, where our guys are fighting the Taliban, and throughout the country.
Only 15% of Afghans wanted Canadian troops to leave immediately; the greater proportion of 80% wanted them to remain until the Taliban was crushed.
Among those admitting surprise in a CBC interview at the favourable opinion towards our soldiers was Janice Gross Stein, professor of conflict management in the University of Toronto's political science department and co-author of The Unexpected War: Canada on Kandahar.
The CBC and others also seem surprised that Afghan women were more positive about the future than men and appreciated the Canadians. Women were also more "negative" about the Taliban than Afghan men.
That's a surprise? Under the Taliban, women couldn't go to school; weren't allowed to be seen in public; were condemned to the burqa; could be beaten if they showed flesh; under Sharia law, adultery entailed stoning to death. In short, the Taliban, like Islam, is male oriented and male dominated.
The only ones not surprised at the poll were ... wait for it -- Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan and, possibly, members of the Harper government who have been to Afghanistan and tested the mood of the country.
UNENCUMBERED
And, of course, journalists if they are unencumbered with preconceived notions --unlike Jack Layton, the NDP and Liberal Leader Stephane Dion.
As if hoping to deflate poll results, a Toronto Star story under the headline "Afghan poll not as clear as it seems," noted that the majority of those polled approved of the presence of foreign troops, but not necessarily in a fighting role. India was rated higher than Canada in Kandahar --maybe because it was supplying goods and business opportunities, not soldiers.
More on link
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