Logistic Vehicle Modernization Project - Replacing everything from LUVW to SHLVW

[Kirkhill]

I am a big fan of the 80-20 rule.

I would be spending my money on a readily available vehicle that can do 80% of the tasks required and save most of my money for niche vehicles that are critical for capabilities that the readily available vehicle can`t supply.

For $25,000,000 I could buy 250 GWagens at $100,000 a piece or 100 of the latest Light Patrol Vehicle from Supacat and Ricardo.  And then have to create a domestic and expeditionary logistic and maintenance support system.

I can buy 1000 Jeeps for $25,000,000 and replace them every 5 years (my jeep is 6 years old and still retains two-thirds the value I paid for it), or I could lease them and self-insure the fleet (you buy what you break).  Or I could buy 1000 Silverado 2500HDs.  In neither case do I have to worry about creating a support system.  It either exists or else the vehicle is cheap enough and easily replaceable that it can be considered a disposable item - like the old M151 jeep.

Saving money at that end frees up high end money to buy gucci kit.  It does mean that not everybody gets the gucci kit but the system has the gucci kit available to support everybody.

And in this case, I would argue, that gucci kit should include Unimogs for their specialist capabilities. What we shouldn`t be doing is buying Unimogs to do the jobs that Jeeps and Silverados can do.  That is a waste of money.

 

[captloadie]

So, basically the CA should do what the RCAF has been doing for years. We buy specialized kit for specialized roles, and everyone else gets COTS.

 

[Kirkhill]

So, basically the CA should do what the RCAF has been doing for years. We buy specialized kit for specialized roles, and everyone else gets COTS.

Does it work for you guys....

 

[captloadie]

With the exception of trying to get parts for our green fleet from the Army, not too many complaints so far. Admittedly, the majority of the organizations don't operate in the same type of training areas.

 

[MarkOttawa]

More COTS talk:

French Army Is Buying Fleet of Ford Pickup Trucks

PARIS — In what might be construed as a blow to Gallic pride, the French Army will soon be patrolling La Belle France, the land of Renaults and Peugeots, in Ford Ranger pickups.

The army is buying 1,000 of the Ford trucks as part of a “crash program” to begin replacing its fleet of off-road vehicles, said Pierre Bayle, a spokesman for the Defense Ministry. The army’s Peugeot P4 jeeps went into service in 1983 and are becoming obsolete, he said.

Two other vehicles were considered, Mr. Bayle said: PSA Peugeot Citroën’s Berlingo, and the Dacia Duster, made by Renault. But Ford got the nod for the first replacement order because of its large payload capacity, he said. The truck can carry five adults and a ton of cargo, more than the French vehicles.

“It’s not a question of America versus France,” Mr. Bayle said, as not one of the three vehicles in question was made in either country. The Ranger is made in South Africa [emphasis added], the Duster in Romania and the Berlingo in Spain...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/06/business/international/french-army-is-buying-fleet-of-ford-pickup-trucks.html?smid=tw-share

Actually quite similar to F-150:
http://www.ford.co.za/commercials/ranger/models
http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/meet-the-2015-ford-ranger-you-wont-be-buying.html/?a=viewall

Mark
Ottawa

 

[blackberet17]

My CO mentioned last week there's rumour/word of an off-the-shelf replacement coming for the G-Wagon, when it's time is up in 2017. Anyone have SA on it?

 

[dapaterson]

My CO mentioned last week there's rumour/word of an off-the-shelf replacement coming for the G-Wagon, when it's time is up in 2017. Anyone have SA on it?

There is a project in the identification stage (pre-options analysis) for LUVW replacement - both MilCOTS and SMP.  There is a notional funding envelope that is not even indicative, and that to my knowledge is not yet in the department's investment plan.  A 2017 date is ridiculously optimistic, given the current state of work.

If you have DWAN access, go to the VCDS home page, go to Chief of Programme, from the left-hand menu select Tools & Resources, select the "Application" link for the Capability Investment Database, and then select "Search CID" and look for CA 1403.  You should get the project information page, which currently holds very basic tombstone data.

 

[Eland2]

I am a big fan of the 80-20 rule.

I would be spending my money on a readily available vehicle that can do 80% of the tasks required and save most of my money for niche vehicles that are critical for capabilities that the readily available vehicle can`t supply.

For $25,000,000 I could buy 250 GWagens at $100,000 a piece or 100 of the latest Light Patrol Vehicle from Supacat and Ricardo.  And then have to create a domestic and expeditionary logistic and maintenance support system.

I can buy 1000 Jeeps for $25,000,000 and replace them every 5 years (my jeep is 6 years old and still retains two-thirds the value I paid for it), or I could lease them and self-insure the fleet (you buy what you break).  Or I could buy 1000 Silverado 2500HDs.  In neither case do I have to worry about creating a support system.  It either exists or else the vehicle is cheap enough and easily replaceable that it can be considered a disposable item - like the old M151 jeep.

Saving money at that end frees up high end money to buy gucci kit.  It does mean that not everybody gets the gucci kit but the system has the gucci kit available to support everybody.

And in this case, I would argue, that gucci kit should include Unimogs for their specialist capabilities. What we shouldn`t be doing is buying Unimogs to do the jobs that Jeeps and Silverados can do.  That is a waste of money.

I never thought that the G-Wagen made a very good light recce vehicle. The G-Wagen was never really designed to function as such anyway - MB originally designed it to function as a general utility and liaison vehicle. Sure, you could go for the Rheinmetall LIV Wolf tactical vehicles that are just stretched G-Wagens with a chopped-off top, but they are pretty pricy.

The Silverado 2500HD, aka 'Milverado' is a good base to work from if you're seeking a truck that can provide light logistical support, but useless as a recce vehicle. If you did decide to turn some of the 1000 Silverados you've bought into recce/patrol variants, like the Irish Army's special forces units did with their Ford F350's, you'd need a third-party like Ricardo to do the custom-building and that will push up the unit cost considerably.

Or, you could go with the Jeep J8, which already comes pre-configured in recce/patrol, ambulance, troop-carrier and even truck-like variants, save yourself a ton of dough, and get an easily maintained platform with parts very widely available on a commercial basis. You'd kill several birds with one stone and not need to let special customization contracts to create the variants you'd require.

 

[OldSolduer]

Eland you are using common sense, stop that!

 

[cupper]

Eland you are using common sense, stop that!

Forgive him Jim. He hasn't been around long enough to develop the deep seeded cynicism the rest of us have nurtured into a work of art. ;D

 

[Eland2]

Forgive him Jim. He hasn't been around long enough to develop the deep seeded cynicism the rest of us have nurtured into a work of art. ;D

Maybe I haven't been here long enough to develop that 'deep-seated sense of cynicism', but as a reasonably well educated layman (with a small amount of experience as a reservist) who has a half-baked idea of how military procurement works, I definitely understand where the cynicism comes from.

When I was a young guy serving in an armoured recce unit equipped with M38A1 and M151 jeeps, all of the members of my unit, me included, would absolutely have killed or given up their left (insert dangling modifier here) to get their hands on Jeep J8's.

Pintle-mounted GPMG for the crew commander? Check. A .50 cal mounted on a turret ring on the roof portion of the rear of the vehicle, or possibly a grenade launcher? Check. Not having to learn anything new with respect to doing vehicle parades? Check. A fair amount of space to store kit or lash it to the sides of the vehicle? Check. Longer wheelbase for greater safety and stability? Check. I mean, how could you go wrong with a vehicle that has that many good attributes?

 

[Kirkhill]

Careful Eland - you are at risk of picking a winner.

That is the job of Her Majesty's Bureaucrats in Public Works and Government Services.

Damm this Cynicism Bug - it appears to be contagious.

J8 Link

 

[George Wallace]

When I was a young guy serving in an armoured recce unit equipped with M38A1 and M151 jeeps, all of the members of my unit, me included, would absolutely have killed or given up their left (insert dangling modifier here) to get their hands on Jeep J8's.

Pintle-mounted GPMG for the crew commander? Check. A .50 cal mounted on a turret ring on the roof portion of the rear of the vehicle, or possibly a grenade launcher? Check. Not having to learn anything new with respect to doing vehicle parades? Check. A fair amount of space to store kit or lash it to the sides of the vehicle? Check. Longer wheelbase for greater safety and stability? Check. I mean, how could you go wrong with a vehicle that has that many good attributes?

As one who was doing Armd Recce in M38A1, I would not follow all your 'dreams' of having a J8.  The pintle-mounted GPMG could not be used on the M151, nor any later version of Jeeps, due to the lack of reinforcing in the frames and bodies of the vehicles to support such mounts.  When the switch was made to the M151, with its roll cage (Time when the CAF were becoming very SAFETY conscience.), it raised the vehicles profile and made it much easier to detect.  Mounting a .50 Cal on a turret would only have made the vehicle more so, and honestly not much more effective.  Remember, the GPMG was only for immediate defence if surprised, not a wpn to go and attack with a la 'Rat Patrol'.  The role was to "See without being seen".

I don't understand your point of a longer wheel base.  Longer wheel base would reduce cross country maneuverability.  The last thing you would want in a wheeled vehicle, in a combat situation, would be to be 'hung up' on a mound.

[Edit to add:  On my first Exercise as a young Troop officer, on a wet, rainy Cape Breton morning, a RCD RSS officer gave me shyte for having my canvas and windscreen up (along with all my Troop).  "Get it down!" were his orders.  Reflective glass is your enemy after all, and a high profile, no capability to hear outside of your warm cab with the heater running defeats the whole purpose of your being there.  Lesson learned and confirmed numerous times after.]

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We did buy commercial jeeps CJ5 I think and they did not last long. Any good vehicle is going to be pricy, buying the G-wagon again means having a flow of commercially available parts, the armoured version with MG is pushing the design limits, where you spend a lot of money for a vehicle that is struggling. Use the hardtop for general duty, radio, command, open top for Reserve recce. For an light 4x4 AFV buy one that was designed from the ground up as one.

 

[George Wallace]

CJ5's and CJ7's if I remember correctly. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

I've always been a big fan of the HUMMVEE and it's many variants it brings to the table.  I like the General Tactical Vehicles JLTV variant they're proposing to the US military myself.  I think it would be a good replacement for the MILCOT, LSVW and G-Wagon.  Replacing all 3 light vehicles with a common one would save money in parts and training IMO.

I travelled in one for about 3 hours and nearly died of compression injuries. There's more room in a friggin' Mini....

 

[cupper]

CJ5's and CJ7's if I remember correctly.

Yeah. I remember doing summer intake inspections on them in Aldershot and driving back and forth from Worthington to Base Maintenance on Milcon in Gagetown. Not my favorite piece of kit.

They were just taking the M151's out of service when I came in. The M38's were being pulled along until the Iltis became available. Remember doing suspension testing on a couple of M38 106 recoilless Jeeps. The heavier leaf springs made for some interesting drives.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We were reissued the M38's when the CJ's started to fail prematurely. For the Reserves we could issue civy model jeeps and trucks without to much problem if we set a strict lifespan and fullsome replacement policy, so the vehicle is used for 7-8 years, replaced and disposed of at Crown Assests.

 

[blackberet17]

I'll gladly take the J8 LPV...

 

[KerryBlue]

Pretty sure this belongs here... Looks like new trucks are coming

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?mthd=index&crtr.page=1&nid=1001579&_ga=1.218338650.2133939155.1432051845