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Too true Kirkhill!

Something very similar has happened to London ON and primary industry is flowing out to the smaller urban centres in SW Ontario. It seems paying for other people's entertainment isn't in many business plans! In an effort to attract taxpayers back to the London, City council has decided to adopt a plan called "Creative Cities". However since it just changes who gets the goodies, it has been a dismal failure in the United States and will cause no end of grief here as well. Winnipeg has also adopted a variation of the plan despite the lack of empirical evidence that this will have any positive impact.

For more about Creative Accounting Cities read: http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_curse.html
 
The Ontario Freedom Party runs on a Libertarian platform, and their leader has some interesting things to say.

aworski.blogspot.com/2007/04/what-do-you-have-to-believe-to-be.

Monday, April 23, 2007
What do you have to believe to be a libertarian?
As I write this, I'm listening and sort of watching, Paul McKeever talk about the difference between libertarianism and Objectivism (the philosophy of Ayn Rand). Paul explains why libertarians are wrong about a lot of things. In particular, libertarians don't hold the right metaphysical, epistemological and ethical views. More specifically, libertarians "don't have a single philosophy" and are too broad. They try, according to McKeever, to be a "big tent" and capture whoever believes in liberty. Hippies, radish-worshippers, druggies, and so on. Just so long as someone claims that they like liberty, that's enough, according to McKeever. But a "true" defence of liberty requires "the right" ethics, "the right" epistemology, and "the right" metaphysical views. In fact, these views logically precede our political philosophy.

Libertarianism is, in short, too narrow in forgetting to focus on foundational philosophical issues and, because of this, get things exactly backwards.This criticism is akin to many others. I find it disconcerting that the main group of people making this criticism are Objectivists. Ayn Rand, in one of her more moody moments, railed against libertarians for stealing her ideas, for being overly broad, for being disintegrated (a giant sin), and so on. She was particularly steamed at the Libertarian Party because, uhm, at the time, the Republicans REALLY needed to win, in her mind, to keep George McGovern from the presidency. Ho hum, diddly do. And a profound "Yawn."

I did some searching around, and came across this same debate on facebook.

A few things. First, it's ironic that Rand should be railing against anyone for stealing ideas. While she was original, you can find all sorts of precursors to her views in John Locke, in Frederic Bastiat, and in a whole host of other sources that she didn't bother to cite. One of the main criticisms of Rand, in fact, is her lack of footnoting and citing earlier sources that said just about the same things she said. But leaving that aside, here's my rejoinder to the Objectivist criticism of libertarianism, in a nut shell.

Libertarianism is broad and "lacks" foundations not because libertarians don't hold foundational views that would exclude many others, but because the word "libertarian" applies to the conclusion of an argument, and not the argument itself. For the sake of an argument, you can define your terms in special ways for special purposes. But when you are using the ordinary notion of "libertarian" you are referring to people who share the belief that government should be massively restrained (for whatever reason--including consequentialist and deontological reasons). More particularly, government's proper functions include (but are not limited to) national (self)defence, law courts, and police. Some libertarians, like Miltion Friedman and Friedrich Hayek, think the state should provide some social safety net. Other libertarians, like Murray Rothbard and Lysander Spooner, think we should have no government at all.

The Objectivist critique of libertarians is the same, in all essentials, to, say, a Catholic claiming that "Christians" are all confused because they don't all have the same metaphysical, epistemological, and ethical commitments. But of course they don't. "Christian," like libertarian, is a broader concept that captures a group of people who might have more particular beliefs about ethics, metaphysics, epistemology, and so on, including Catholics. This is why Objectivists, regardless of what they say, are libertarians.

I find it strange that libertarians should be saddled with this nonsense, whereas other political philosophies get a friendly pass. Consider. To be a conservative, you needn't follow Leo Strauss, or think Ronald Reagan was awesome, or that Christianity is the way to go. Roughly, all you need is to believe in low taxes, the family, and a smaller government. You don't have ultra-specific conservative views that claim to be the only true views about conservatism. To be sure, you have many people who argue that this or that path is the best path to conservatism, that this or that philosophy is the best way to ground and justify conservatism, but you don't have anything like the distaste the Objectivists have for the libertarians.

The same is true of liberalism. You needn't be a Rawlsian, or think Bill Clinton was the bomb, to be a liberal. You can believe all sorts of different things. So long as you think that we should be neutral on the good life, provide some amount of resources to allow each to live a life that each judges best, and place some emphasis on equality of outcome, you're a liberal. Some will call themselves Rawlsian liberals to make plain what they think is the right way to ground and justify liberalism. Others can call themselves other sorts of liberals. And that's fine.

I call myself a libertarian. I'm a strange sort of libertarian, however. I don't believe in natural rights as metaphysical facts. As far as I'm concerned, they're just legal entities with no status apart from the law. I don't agree with Rand on just about anything (although there is much that I agree with, and, for full disclosure's sake, I passed through Rand to get to where I am now). I take a dim view of deontological ethics in general, and any a priori approach to, uhm, anything.

Instead, I take a more-or-less Rawlsian approach to political philosophy. Take our intuitions about ethics, mix them up with some considered judgments, throw in historical data about how certain institutions operate, and see if you can't get "reflective equilibrium" between all of these views. For that reason, I call myself a Hayekian libertarian. Hayek, for those of you who don't know, thought that Rawls was just about exactly right in terms of method, and just about exactly wrong about the conclusions that he reached. The empirical date, said Hayek, just doesn't support a bloated role for the government. That is, even if it really is our responsibility to take care of our neighbour, we shouldn't look to government as the institution that realizes that responsibility. It will do a poor job of it.
 
FrenchAffair said:
and how many votes did they get?

You've repeated this strawman argument so many times I think you've probably already qualified for some kind of agricultural subsidy*: the simple fact of the matter is that many people consider who consider themselves libertarian are very pragmatic (which is the reason they are libertarians, but that's another matter).  As pragmatists, many self-described libertarians vote for mainstream parties in order to effect incremental change in (what they perceive as) the right direction, rather than allow status quo, or change in a more statist direction.  In the US, IIRC the split is something like 75% Republican / 25% Democrat (Republicans tend to be more economically libertarian, where Democrats are seen as more socially liberal); I don't know the split in Canada, but I suspect it is heavily weighted towards the Conservative party (esp. in the post-Red Tory landscape).  Of course many other libertarians don't vote at all.

Your statistics are meaningless, as are many of your opinions (which don't even qualify as arguments).

----------------------------------
*stolen from another <a href="http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2007/04/samizdata_putdo.html">poster on Samizdata.net</a>
 
a_majoor said:
The Ontario Freedom Party runs on a Libertarian platform, and their leader has some interesting things to say.

They also have a National Party. http://www.freedomparty.ca/htm/en/home.htm

They seem much more focused and less fractious than the Libertarian Party of Canada
 
I_am_John_Galt said:
You've repeated this strawman argument so many times I think you've probably already qualified for some kind of agricultural subsidy*

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

Please, do us all a favor. If you are going to constantly accuse people of using this logical fallacy at least know what it is and use it only in applicable situations.

Accusing people of using logical fallacies, when one is not used is a logical fallacy in itself.
 
FrenchAffair said:
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

Please, do us all a favor. If you are going to constantly accuse people of using this logical fallacy at least know what it is and use it only in applicable situations.

Accusing people of using logical fallacies, when one is not used is a logical fallacy in itself.

Example:
FrenchAffair said:
You mean like the record setting 3,002 votes the Libertarian party got in the past federal election? 11,000 less than the communist party I might add.

From your link:
The Straw Man is a type of Red Herring because the arguer is attempting to refute his opponent's position, and in the context is required to do so, but instead attacks a position—the "straw man"—not held by his opponent.

As with several of your "points," no one (except you) is arguing about the popularity of libertarianism in Canada: you seem to think that a(supposed) lack of popularity somehow supports your idea that libertarianism is wrong/evil/stupid/whatever.  That is about as clear of an example of a strawman argument that I can imagine.  Moreover, your "evidence" of its lack of popularity is misinformed, as I pointed out in my last post.  Your posts only serve to further illustrate your complete lack of understanding of the topic at hand.

OUT.

 
I have a feeling this is the wrong place for this argument, but nice try. How ever illustrating the fact of the Libertarian parties (and political parties which hold Libertarian ideals) lack of any form of success in Canadian politics is not a straw man argument. It is simply, stating a fact.
 
FrenchAffair said:
I have a feeling this is the wrong place for this argument, but nice try. How ever illustrating the fact of the Libertarian parties (and political parties which hold Libertarian ideals) lack of any form of success in Canadian politics is not a straw man argument. It is simply, stating a fact.

Do you not ever give up? No one can "debate" with you. You are always right. You don't listen to the other side, and have sure as heck been there and done it all for a mere 20 year old. I too call BS on your profile. Your credibility here continues to slide....rapidly.

 
From the Libertarian Party:



Sunday, April 29, 2007
Why Government is Not the Solution by Jim McIntosh

From the federal Libertarian Party's April newsletter:

    As members of the Libertarian Party, our purpose is to enable a society of freedom and individual responsibility, free markets and a strictly limited government. It is not our job as a Party to create the replacement for welfare; we should not expect voters to love us because we are providing for their needs. There are many other people, even some libertarians, who are ready, willing and able to do that, if only government would get out of the way.

    The Fraser Institute for example, runs the Children First: School Choice Trust that pays half the tuition for low income families for the private school of their choice. They also run the Donner Canadian Foundation Awards for Excellence in the delivery of Social Services by non-profit.

    And of course there is the Salvation Army, the Red Cross and hundreds of other organizations who probably would receive more donations if government didn't take half of our income. After Katrina, lots of private organizations and volunteers helped the victims and put FEMA to shame, as reported in Reason Magazine.


    After reading Atlas Shrugged I stated ranting against all manner of government programs. Friends jokingly described me as "a little to the right of Attila the Hun." That hurt, because I was raised as a protestant, and I believe in helping my neighbor. Then I realized that the problem was they believed government programs actually help, while I believe they hinder.

    Some voters believe that politicians and bureaucrats really care about the poor. I believe politicians pretend to care about the poor and promise to help the poor (using OPM, Other People's Money) in order to get re-elected. And bureaucrats only care about increasing their empires. And even if voters don't believe politicians and bureaucrats care, they believe most people will not voluntarily help others and must be forced to provide the funds.

    Have a look at What About The Poor on the Ontario Libertarian Party website for another take on the subject.

    Charles Murray, in his book Losing Ground, says that before the mid-sixties things were getting better for the poor in the US according to many measures. Then the dominant philosophy changed. The poor came to be seen as victims, not responsible for their situation. The War on Poverty was declared. Since then, things have been getting worse for the poor.

    We have single mothers trying to support their families on a minimum wage. No one ever asks these women why they chose to have a family when they knew they couldn't afford it. Surely this is the height of irresponsibility. Back in the fifties and sixties, having a child out of wedlock was considered a mistake, and the child was usually adopted by a couple who could give it a good home. But today, voters (or at least the liberal media) think of single mothers as victims. And welfare programs encourage them to be dependent on OPM.

    William Simon in his book, A Time For Truth, reports that if the increase in the Welfare budget from 1965 to 1975 had been given to the poor, they each would have received $10,000, or $40,000 for a family of four! How come they are still poor? Because there is a welfare industry that makes money from welfare programs.

    We, as a Party, cannot fix the poverty problem. We can show how private charity works better than government welfare. We need to convince people that government is not the solution. The best way to do that is as a candidate during elections, when people who care are more likely to listen.

    Jim McIntosh is a retired IT project management consultant. He is a long-time member and Treasurer of the Ontario Libertarian Party and a member of the Libertarian Party of Canada Ethics Committee. He ran as a Libertarian candidate in 10 federal and provincial elections in the eighties and nineties. In the last Federal election he served as Official Agent for four Libertarian Candidates.
 
Another view:

http://mrerl.blogspot.com/2007/05/socialists-love-taxes

Socialists love Taxes!

Taxes. Everyone hates them. What's that?...You say you don't? Stop lying.

Today, in economics, our teacher divided us into groups and gave us a task. We were supposed to be lawmakers in a new country and we had to come to consensus on a new method of taxation. Of all the choices, I decided that a proportional/flat tax would be the best. A 20% tax across the board seemd fair to me. The lowest wage earned in this new "nation" was about 10,000 a year. The highest was 277,000. Half the group decided that a graduated tax system would be best...where the poorest would pay about 15% and the richest would pay 25%. To me, this was totally unfair.

The difference between the 15% and the 20% tax rate for the poorest was $415. A pety sum, no? The difference between the 20% and the 25% tax rate for the richest was over $8000!

The rest of the group used the excuse that the rich can "afford" to pay more in taxes in order to help out the poorest! This got the political ball rolling...

As a fiscal conservative, I believe that the rich should not have to pay exorbortant sums of tax to make up for what the poor can't pay. I asked the group, "Do you know everything about this 'rich' family?"

This rich family could have 5 kids who all want to go to university, that need clothes, food, other things...they could be supporting a relative who's living with them...the list goes on. But because that people see that one family makes $277,000, they assume that they can spare some money to pay for the poor.

In Canada today, our tax system puts restraints on and punishes our most productive and most intellegant by forcing them to pay high taxes, while to poor have no incentive to move up the fiscal ladder and make more money because it means paying more taxes to support those who don't want to take the time to move up the ladder. How is this fair? Why should everyone be forced to pay for their fellow citizens? Why is this system still in place?

Back to my class example, some of my fellow students used the point "What if someone can't work harder and move up the ladder?" Although I may be a fiscal conservative, I am a social compassionate...I believe that if the government were to lower taxes for those they consider "rich", that this will give them more incentive to donate independantly to charities and foundations that help the poor. If the government were to offer further tax breaks for donating, the number of donations would definately go up.

Lower taxes for the rich and all of a sudden, the poor see that, if they move up the ladder, they will not have to pay for their lazy neighbours, they will be able to keep more of their income and they will be able to independently help those who can't move up.

Lower taxes means Independence, Independence from Government control over nearly every aspect of our lives...High taxes that go to the poor is just the government saying to us "We don't trust you to give to the poor by yourselves...we are smarter and therefore, will do it for you."

That's the problem with socialism...it always underestimates the intelligence of the people...

It's time to lower taxes for the middle and upper classes...way before Mr. Erl goes to Ottawa...
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/15/opinion/15mitra.html?ex=1313294400&en=29fcef4345e00740&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

Can China teach the west a thing or two about capitalism?
 
Reccesoldier said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/15/opinion/15mitra.html?ex=1313294400&en=29fcef4345e00740&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

Can China teach the west a thing or two about capitalism?

No.

China is operating a cartel system where access to capital and resources is controlled by the State. There are very few other sources of available capital (even foreign investment is essentially steered into areas the Chinese Government wants supported). While this is good for existing Chinese business which already has connections to the State, it also means China cannot create new industries the way a real Capitalist society can. Consider that personal computers did not exist prior to 1981, but are now a global multi-billion dollar industrial sector today. Certainly no Communist, Fascist or Socialist  society could have imagined such a thing happening, much less devoted resources to such a project during it's infancy. They copied and mostly still copy the American computer industry. (BTW, the French Minitel system anticipate the Internet by about a decade, but because it was aState project, a "closed" technology and under no compulsion to innovate, it was largely overtaken and superceded by the internet in the 1990's. I don't know if it even operates anymore).

Another telling example of how this sort of cartel mentality stifles innovation can be seen in National Socialist Germany during WW II. While many weird and wonderful innovations came out in the final years of the war, many of them (jet aircraft, long range rockets, nuclear energy, advanced submarines) had been proposed years earlier, but no State funding (the only large scale source of funding) was made available for a variety of reasons. The mad scramble to create some sort of wonder weapon in 1944-45 was in vain as there were not enough time or resources available at that point to create a usable product, enough wonder weapons or train a user community to operate these weapons. One can only imagine what would have happened if the German military had access to the results of civilian jet transport technology or high speed shipping based on competative private enterprise.

While it is true that even in the West government money supported a lot of military R&D which eventually came into the commercial world, that force feeding has been reversed in many technology fields; the military now looks at how to adapt civilian technology since the R&D and product cycles in the civilian market move so much faster.
 
Skimming the channels the other night I came across Sacha Trudeau being interviewed.  Given the subject of the interview I didn't dawdle long but I stayed long enough to catch some interesting comments about Young Trudea Minor's views on the Red Giant.

While he admits that China has some "challenges" with respect to human rights violations, the environment, bellicosity, cronyism and wealth distribution,  and that it seems to be straying from communism towards capitalism he found that he was optimistic about China's future.

The reason:  Because it is a well ordered, rational, managed society.

While that may be well and good, and indeed true and welcome as far as the international community is concerned it puts him squarely at odds with the "disorder" of a well-functioning "liberal democracy".

It seems that he is indeed his father's son, and, I might suggest, a son of Quebec.  Order is more important than freedom.

Apparently another individual with similar inclinations is Hillary Clinton.

...In a speech at Manchester School of Technology in New Hampshire, Clinton said it's time to replace President Bush's "ownership society," which she called an "on your own" society, with one based on shared responsibility and prosperity.

Clinton said she prefers a "we're all in it together" society: "I believe our government can once again work for all Americans. It can promote the great American tradition of opportunity for all and special privileges for none."

Doesn't such a society already exist elsewhere? It's called socialism, where government has sought to make all things economically equal and the only equality is that all are equally poor. ...
  By Cal Thomas of Tribune Media Services.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/05/it_takes_a_socialist_village.html
 
But does the village need a chief, or just a council of elders?
 
Kirkhill said:
But does the village need a chief, or just a council of elders?

Dunno if it really needs either, but every village seems to have at least one idiot.  ::)
 
While that may be well and good, and indeed true and welcome as far as the international community is concerned it puts him squarely at odds with the "disorder" of a well-functioning "liberal democracy".

It seems that he is indeed his father's son, and, I might suggest, a son of Quebec.  Order is more important than freedom.

How are we less free because we are taxed more. In all honesty if I had to choose between paying less taxes or spending more money on health care/education/social service, I would always pick the latter simply because I find that more important than my own self interests. Not to mention that nation's which have social safety nets tend to have a better society overall.

http://sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=31&articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A9F183414B7F0000

Apparently another individual with similar inclinations is Hillary Clinton.


Quote
...In a speech at Manchester School of Technology in New Hampshire, Clinton said it's time to replace President Bush's "ownership society," which she called an "on your own" society, with one based on shared responsibility and prosperity.

Clinton said she prefers a "we're all in it together" society: "I believe our government can once again work for all Americans. It can promote the great American tradition of opportunity for all and special privileges for none."

Doesn't such a society already exist elsewhere? It's called socialism, where government has sought to make all things economically equal and the only equality is that all are equally poor. ...

  By Cal Thomas of Tribune Media Services.

I read your link, but it seemed to be more of a knee jerk reaction than anything. I don't see why people think that the government is something evil that needs to be taken away, the government is made up of and elected by the people to serve everyone. If we had no intervention from government we'd be nothing more than an anarchist state.

I have a few issues with the article:

Doesn't such a society already exist elsewhere? It's called socialism, where government has sought to make all things economically equal and the only equality is that all are equally poor. Wasn't defeating such a society precisely why we fought and won the Cold War? Why does Senator Clinton wish to embrace the principles of the losing side?

Wouldn't FDR also be considered a socialist than. In my own opinion the best government is one which adopts a middle road approach to the economy, encouraging business yet at the same time bringing in some regulations in order to make for a healthy society. To compare communism to things such as universal health care, welfare, etc. is a fallable argument. I live in a province with a social democratic government and have yet to be waiting two hours in line at a government supply store trying to get bread.

Clinton has merely updated the old and discredited (except among socialist dictators) Karl Marx saying: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

This is ridiculous, it assumes that any nation which supports more social programs or a national healthcare program will turn into a socialist dictatorship. Sure it sells on the extreme right but I doubt that American's who are in the middle class or the working poor will agree with it.

I am not robbed by people who have more money than me. I am robbed by a government that wants to penalize my industry and give increasing portions of what I earn to people who do not emulate my principles, morals and ethics.

The problem is that is not a democracy, some people do not believe in having a military, should we get rid of that as well.

What have we come to? We once taught our young people the virtues of hard work, saving, personal responsibility and accountability for one's actions, chastity before and fidelity and commitment in marriage, honesty, integrity and virtue - not to mention the Ten Commandments (especially the one about not coveting that which belongs to your neighbor). We now teach them entitlement, victimhood, class envy and rights to other people's money. When one robs a bank, it's a crime. When government takes our money, it's called a tax. Same result.

Those virtues aren't necessarily true, even if you work hard it doesn't garauntee success. As for the class envy and taking other peoples money, if your born into a family living in poverty your not going to have the same advantages as a rich family and shouldn't be unable to have an education/health care because of it, which I find is the biggest flaw with libertarianism. It assumes equality, however a person will be considered more equal simply out of luck. When government takes your money its called democracy, that is unfortunately the downside of living in a society. We recognize the need to pay for things such as health care, education, and welfare, because they all contribute to making a healthier society.

I find danger in any extreme ideology, if we lived in a perfect libertarian society or perfect communist society life would be perfect, but that isn't feasible. Most developed nations have found a good middle ground and we should stick with what has worked, I don't mind living in this country, and I don't mind paying taxes to help someone else out.
 
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