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Libertarians

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I agree completely, in on way should doctors in Canada be denied the benefits of the free market. They should get competitive wages, have access to top of the line equipment and be able to work in conditions typical for a developed nation.

  But the cost of that should not be transferred only to the individuals who use their services, it should be absorbed by the government and paid by though taxes.
 
FrenchAffair said:
I agree completely, in on way should doctors in Canada be denied the benefits of the free market. They should get competitive wages, have access to top of the line equipment and be able to work in conditions typical for a developed nation.

  But the cost of that should not be transferred only to the individuals who use their services, it should be absorbed by the government and paid by though taxes.

Since Dentists charge market prices directly to consumers or their insurers without government intervention and there is no Dental crisis in Canada, (or for that matter in any other profession which is not extensively regulated or run by a government bureacracy) your argument is 100% refuted.

In fact, going over this thread I can see no instance where you have ever demonstrated by fact or historical example how government regulation has "improved" things, while multiple posters have brought up examples in many areas of life where intervention has made things worse (or even far worse). Perhaps before you expound on the virtues of Socialism you should spend some time studying the historical record of such places as National Socialist Germany, Fascist Italy, Communist Russia, Maoist China, Cambodia under Pol Pot etc. etc. to see where the end point of your argument really lies.

Even at the half way points, look at the economic and political stagnation of the EU (especially compared to more Libertarian parts of the world like the four "tigers" of Asia or the United States) before you decide what is better for all of us. If you want to live that way that is your right (and as a Libertarian I have no quarrel with that), but it is my right to make my own choices and live with the consequences as well.
 
What does dentistry have to do with health care?

A person does not die from bad teeth, and any kind of infection or disease in the mouth that is serious of life threatening any Canadian goes to the emergency room and is treated (for free) there.

Nothing is refuted as the two are not related at all.

In fact, going over this thread I can see no instance where you have ever demonstrated by fact or historical example how government regulation has "improved" things

In terms of health care developed nations with universal health care, the health of the citizens of those nations are far improved. The only developed nation with out some form of universal health care is the US, which has statically has the worst over all health care system in the developed world.

Perhaps before you expound on the virtues of Socialism you should spend some time studying the historical record of such places as National Socialist Germany, Fascist Italy, Communist Russia, Maoist China, Cambodia under Pol Pot etc. etc. to see where the end point of your argument really lies.

So now I am a Socialist because I support universal health care?

Even at the half way points, look at the economic and political stagnation of the EU (especially compared to more Libertarian parts of the world like the four "tigers" of Asia or the United States)

“More Libertarian”…. You mean Social Democracies. None of those nations are even close to Libertarian, if anything the political and economic success of the “four tigers” refutes Libertarian policies. All those nations have extensive social programs, ranging from developed welfare systems, government housing, workplace regulations, universal health care…… ect.

Oh, and Taiwan and South Korea rank 37 and 45th respectively in the Indices of Economic Freedom

That means the European nations of: Ireland, Luxembourg, Iceland, UK, Estonia, Denmark, New Zealand (western), Australia (western), Canada (western), Finland, Switzerland, Netherlands, Cyprus, Austria, Germany, Sweden, Czech Republic, Belgium, Lithuania, Malta, Armenia, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Slovakia and Israel all have more economic freedoms then these two nations you are claiming are so successful.

So if all these European nations have freer and more open economies…. But are “economically and politically stanting” what’s that mean?

Maybe they should regulate the economy more and provide more social institutions like Taiwan and South Korea so they can match their political and economic success.


 
FrenchAffair said:
What does dentistry have to do with health care?

A person does not die from bad teeth, and any kind of infection or disease in the mouth that is serious of life threatening any Canadian goes to the emergency room and is treated (for free) there.

Nothing is refuted as the two are not related at all.
Yes, because health care only deals with life-threatening conditions.

In terms of health care developed nations with universal health care, the health of the citizens of those nations are far improved. The only developed nation with out some form of universal health care is the US, which has statically has the worst over all health care system in the developed world.
And where do the vast majority of advances in medical research come from?  And in which country is/are almost all of the world's pre-eminent research and facilites?

So now I am a Socialist because I support universal health care?
Is universal healthcare a Libertarian policy?

“More Libertarian”…. You mean Social Democracies. None of those nations are even close to Libertarian, if anything the political and economic success of the “four tigers” refutes Libertarian policies. All those nations have extensive social programs, ranging from developed welfare systems, government housing, workplace regulations, universal health care…… ect.
There are more than four tigers and their common characteristic is they developed very rapidly by leveraging their best resource (human capital), allowing people to work for wages that have been characterized as "enslavement."

Oh, and Taiwan and South Korea rank 37 and 45th respectively in the Indices of Economic Freedom

That means the European nations of: Ireland, Luxembourg, Iceland, UK, Estonia, Denmark, New Zealand (western), Australia (western), Canada (western), Finland, Switzerland, Netherlands, Cyprus, Austria, Germany, Sweden, Czech Republic, Belgium, Lithuania, Malta, Armenia, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Slovakia and Israel all have more economic freedoms then these two nations you are claiming are so successful.
What on earth is your point?  The simple fact remains that countries that have deregulated their economies (most of SE Asia, Chile, Ireland, most of Eastern Europe) have developed much more quickly than the ones that haven't.  Most economists today debate the speed at which economies should be deregulated (ever heard of Shanghai?): deregulation is considered to be an inherently 'good' thing.
 
Yes, because health care only deals with life-threatening conditions.

Wow, another flip answer from a Libertarian….how surprising.

There still fails to be any valid point here, what does private dentists have to do with the right to free medical treatment?

And where do the vast majority of advances in medical research come from?  And in which country is/are almost all of the world's pre-eminent research and facilites?

The Nation with the most money in the world.

Unfortunately all those advances in medical research, all those billions of dollars invested in to research and facilities dose not translate into a high level of health care accost the board for American citizens.

Pre-ww2 citizens of the US had the best standard of health in the world, they lived the longest, were on average the healthiest…. But ever since the developed world started adopting universal health care the faults of the profit oriented system have been exposed. The US now accost the board has fallen behind every developed nation that has established universal health care.

Is universal healthcare a Libertarian policy?

So if you are not a Libertarian you are a socialist?

There are more than four tigers and their common characteristic is they developed very rapidly by leveraging their best resource (human capital), allowing people to work for wages that have been characterized as "enslavement."

“The four Asian tigers”…. I fail to see how there could be more then four.

And you are right in a way, these four nations did developed quickly by creating export based economy’s. But in that sense they are the exception, because there are dozens of other nations that try to leverage human capital, that allow people to work for low wages, with out regulated economy’s or workers rights and where are they….. the 3rd world nations of this earth.

These Asian nations developed at the rate they did because as soon as they started making money they took that money and put it back into education, health care, social welfare, improving the wages and conditions of workers. No nation will ever become a developed and modern society with out welfare, health care, public education… it is simply impossible and history proves that fact very clearly.

The success of these nations, as much as Libertarians wish, is not because of any implication of “Libertarian” policies. It is far more complex then that, a combination of effective authoritarian governments, US support and aid and convient timing in the world economy.

If these nations had followed Libertarian principles only a select minority of these nations would be reaping the benefits, not the entire populist.

What on earth is your point?  The simple fact remains that countries that have deregulated their economies (most of SE Asia, Chile, Ireland, most of Eastern Europe) have developed much more quickly than the ones that haven't.  Most economists today debate the speed at which economies should be deregulated (ever heard of Shanghai?): deregulation is considered to be an inherently 'good' thing.

Over-regulation is obviously a bad thing, just as under regulation is. The success of these economy’s is not by eliminating all regulations (as Libertarians propose) it is in finding the appropriate medium where they are not over-regulating and choking off business but not under-regulating and depriving workers of their rights.

Any developed nation, or nation moving into that status are the ones which don’t subscribe to Libertarian principles and provide social welfare to it’s citizens. It is the Social Democracy that provides success, both political and economical.
 
"I think the health care of all people should not be contingent on what that individual can afford. I put no price on human life."

-  Wait until you turn eighty, and your doctor tells you that you do not fit the prefered patient profile for the life saving surgery you need - translation:  might as well write DNR on your forehead, because operating on you is no longer considered cost effective.

- With a two tier system, you could at least then decide to spend your own money to save your own life.
 
FrenchAffair said:
What does dentistry have to do with health care?

To be polite, I will believe you are being deliberately obtuse. Dentists operate under the free market, and it is relatively simple to find a dentist and get any sort of dental care you may need or desire. London ON is full of dental offices, and almost all have the cheerful "New Patients accepted" sign on the door.

London, ON also has a severe shortage of medical doctors, despite having five hospitals and a school of medicine located in the geographical boundaries. No family doctor will accept new patients, and the number of doctors continues to decline, despite the vast amount of government money and bureaucracy associated with medicine. I invite you to contemplate a thought experiment where doctors work under the same rules and conditions as Dentists. Would there be a similar outcome? Now reverse the experiment: Dentists must provide "universal dental care". Since both dentists and doctors are humans who react to incentives the same way (indeed the same way everyone else does), the outcomes are almost pre determined. If doctors were treated like dentists, there would be a large incentive to join the medical profession, while if dentists were treated like doctors, we would be suffering a shortage of dentists and have horrible dental care.

Frankly, what you fail to (or refuse to) see is the only people being offered incentives under this system are the bureaucrats. Libertarianism takes them out of the equation, and allows people to make their own decisions. It also limits the powers of governments to affect everyone with the poor decisions made by politicians and bureaucrats.
 
FrenchAffair said:
And then when you or someone under your care gets diagnosed with cancer you have no way to pay for it. You won’t be able to get insurance because it is a pre-existing condition, treatment costs in the hundreds of thousands of dollars and there is no public service to pay for it for you. You will end up hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt (if you can even get the loans) just so you can be given the treatment that is needed to (maybe) save your life.

Another silly all or nothing argument.  Remember even in the US where there is no universal heath care, treatment can not be refused because a person can not pay.  Will the person be forced into a payment schedule once he/she is able?  Of course, why shouldn't they.

I think the health care of all people should not be contingent on what that individual can afford. I put no price on human life.

Spoken like a Liberal back bencher with his recipe card of talking points still in hand.  Tugging on heart strings with platitudes won't win you any votes in here.  Use facts not rhetoric.
 
Dentists operate under the free market, and it is relatively simple to find a dentist and get any sort of dental care you may need or desire. London ON is full of dental offices, and almost all have the cheerful "New Patients accepted" sign on the door.

Again, irrelevant. The issue is not the ready availability of doctors, the current issue we are speaking of is how the payment of healthcare should be handled. There is no denying a shortage of doctors in Canada and there is no denying that if we have a completely free market system for doctors more would likely choose to stay here.

But that is not the issue; the issue here is universal access to free health care. The issue of doctors moving south of the border simply means that our current health care system needs to work to maintain competitive wages for our doctors to encourage them to stay here.

The dentistry profession has nothing to do with the fundamental right of all Canadians (and humans for that fact) to free health care.

Now reverse the experiment: Dentists must provide "universal dental care".

When it is an issue of life and death, of course. But beyond that dental work is more or less cosmetic. Not a necessity for life and not something that will act severally to the detriment of an individuals quality of life if they don’t go see a dentist.

Libertarianism takes them out of the equation, and allows people to make their own decisions.

Because people “choose” to get sick of course.
 
Stop it right now with "free health care"........that is a lie of the largest magnitude.
 
Remember even in the US where there is no universal heath care, treatment can not be refused because a person can not pay.  Will the person be forced into a payment schedule once he/she is able?  Of course, why shouldn't they.

Treatment can’t be “refused” at emergency rooms if it is a life threatening condition. Doesn’t mean that the person doesn’t get the bill in the mail.

And payment schedule? Being Canadians we really do not comprehend or understand the true cost of health care. In the US at an average hospital to get 20 stitches costs $700. That’s for 20 minuets of some interns life, some string and an injection. You really think that any average person is capable of realistically paying for complex and prolonged medical treatment? 

Aggressive cancer treatment can cost upwards of $20,000 a month.

When a working class individual or family is struck with tragedy it is practically impossible for them to pay these bills. They are given the choice of either going into hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and ruining their lives or letting their family member die. A choice that no one should have to make.


Spoken like a Liberal back bencher with his recipe card of talking points still in hand.  Tugging on heart strings with platitudes won't win you any votes in here.

Odd, never voted for anyone but the conservatives.
 
>In 1960 the US was 12th in the world in infant mortality, now they are 23rd
>In 1945 the US was 1st in womens life expectancy, now they are 20th
>In 1945 the US was 1st in mens life expectancy, now they are 21st

The anti-US-healthcare lobby is going to have to come up with some better metrics.  I keep seeing "infant mortality" and "life expectancy" and even "average height" in print as if they meant something profound about health care delivery.

Here is my interpretation: since 1945 and 1960 much of the rest of the world has raised its general standard of living to close the gap which existed between them and the US in 1945 and 1960.  Therefore factors such as population genetics and cultural habits such as diet and exercise now dominate the cited outcomes.  All of those lie entirely outside the health care system as we know it, and one factor (genetics) is not really within our power to control.

There is also the question of how numbers are reported.  The US follows the strictest (WHO) definition of what constitutes an infant death (ie. uses the most generous definition of "live birth" versus "stillbirth").  Some nations pad their infant mortality statistics (reduce the counts) by helpfully including some post-birth deaths as "stillbirth".  Without a common base of measurement, the statistics are not garbage but they certainly are also not unimpeachable.

Few people seriously propose that catastrophic health care (accidents, major illness) should not be covered by a public insurer.

As I quoted in the "ATM" thread from the CBC a while back:

"Some doctors are scaling back their family practices to perform cosmetic procedures, spurring critics to ask whether the move will make current health-care waiting lists even longer"

...

"While a provincial health plan may pay a doctor $60 to do a 30-minute physical or $12 to remove a mole, patients pay more than $200 for a cosmetic procedure such as Botox that takes 10 minutes."

That's one response to the "guidance" (incentives) provided by our public health care system.  How should we deal with it?  Restrain doctors, or remove the limitations on who and how they bill?
 
Here is my interpretation: since 1945 and 1960 much of the rest of the world has raised its general standard of living to close the gap which existed between them and the US in 1945 and 1960.

Exactly, by providing universal health care.

Few people seriously propose that catastrophic health care (accidents, major illness) should not be covered by a public insurer.

And one group of these “few people” are Libertarians.

How should we deal with it?  Restrain doctors, or remove the limitations on who and how they bill?

Make government provided wages more competitive.
 
This is getting tiresome, so I will close out with some observations:

Smugness, cliches and avoiding or ignoring the point are not arguments. If you are going to a debate bring something relevant.

People like Brad, John Galt, Edward Campbell, Reccesoldier, Bruce Monkhouse and myself have served under conditions where we sometimes have to make life or death decisions based on observing and understanding the evidence. We also have extensive experience in multiple nations observing what people do, and also have education in various disciplines, so if we tear your statements into confetti it is because we have the education, experience and understanding of what we are talking about, something conspicuously lacking in your responses.

I will close off by observing that in Canada and the United States, people of the Liberal/Left persuasion have fewer (and often no) children, so after 2020 we will see a wave of socially conservative families becoming the larger part of the population. Since they are already disposed more towards the Libertarian world view, it seems that we will only have to wait for a generation before the Liberal/Left mindset becomes a historical curiosity. While this may not presage the ultimate victory of Libertarianism, it certainly makes for a better tomorrow for my children, and I look forward to that time while working to make it happen.
 
If you are going to a debate bring something relevant.

You mean like the record setting 3,002 votes the Libertarian party got in the past federal election? 11,000 less than the communist party I might add.

I think it is clear that Canadians don’t support the outlandish fantasy Libertarians propose as “government”.

While this may not presage the ultimate victory of Libertarianism

Lol, well if believing this makes you feel better hold on to that. But the “Libertarian” world of limited government, no regulations has past. The world was like that 200 years ago, and people didn’t like it. It didn’t create a better standard of life for the average citizen, it didn’t create circumstances where peoples children were better off than they were and most of all it did not provide people what they wanted from a government, which in a democracy is the most important thing.

The world, especially in the west has seen a dirastic step away from the “Libertarian” mindset into what we have today, a world in which no developed nation is not a Social Democracy. Sorry to ruin your fantasy but Canada is not moving toward an extreme conservative mindset. Canadians have worked too hard to give us the benefits and advantages of our current government and we will not revert back to the way things were in the dark ages. Sorry to ruin your fantasy, but the west is in a very nice political medium, we are not going to shift far either way. Power will remain in the centralist, at most shifting slightly to the left or right… just like we have seen for the past 60 years.
 
People did not raise their standards of living with health care.  They did so with potable water, sewers and waste water treatment, improved hygiene, improved nutrition and so forth.  I assume you are not as stupid as your ridiculous one-line attempt at rebuttal sounds.

The current experiment with social democracy will run its course until the producers tire of supporting the consumers, particularly where too many of the consumers are recent arrivals and not of the producers in-groups.  (Social cohesion and heterogeneity does matter.)  Then we will have change, which will not necessarily be pleasant.  It would be foolish and somewhat arrogant to believe we've found the sweet spot for governing people, since we have several centuries during which succeeding generations have learned to expect more freedom in all respects than their predecessors enjoyed.
 
OK,...this thread has passed its 'best before' date unless we have someone with something new to say.

My finger is hovering over the lock button if we continue on the 'he said, she said' thread.
 
FrenchAffair said:
Odd, never voted for anyone but the conservatives.

You mean in all two federal elections which you were eligible to vote?  Wow!  I'm not worthy!
 
Reccesoldier said:
You mean in all two federal elections which you were eligible to vote?  Wow!  I'm not worthy!

One actually, but lucky the Conservative Party of Canada holds true to Canadian values and supports a strong system of universal health care, comprehensive welfare institutions and believes the roll of the government is not to sit back and watch society descend into anarchy but help better the lives of all Canadians no matter what tax bracket they are in. Really in terms of Canada they are the party that comes closest to representing the ideal values of a Social Democracy, we can be happy that even Canadian who voted for them realised that.
 
Brad Sallows said:
The current experiment with social democracy will run its course until the producers tire of supporting the consumers, ......

I think you may have already reached that point out your neck of the woods Brad.  I note that Vancouver has decided to raise residential property taxes 8% rather than 4% because the few businesses left in Vancouver have rebelled and said that they can't support any more taxes.

This is the effect of Vancouver chasing businesses away from the waterfront in favour of condos,  of making it harder for businesses to move goods and people around increasingly congested streets and placing the tax burden on said businesses. 

The net effect has been the move of businesses to Roberts Bank, Delta Port, (Prince Rupert soon), Surrey, Langley, Aldergrove and Chilliwack with the resultant move in population.  Vancouver's response has been to expand the GVRD so as to increase the tax base while continuing to focus services from those taxes on the denizens of Stanley Park and environs and the inhabitants of the DownTownEastSideTM
 
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