Islam and Western Society

[McG]

I just want to see their face. If I have to deal with you, I want to look you in the eye. Other than that, I don't care if you walk around in a full wetsuit.

Well, I guess you will be happy to know that the burkini (unlike the burka) does not cover the face.

 

 

Anyway, it seems the courts in France have put an end to this ban:  http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/burkini-ban-france-overturned-1.3736823

 

[Lightguns]

Again regardless of the cloth or the court, my understanding of the issue was the muslim men throwing rocks and threatening other users of the beach because their female relatives were in these burkini on said beach and they felt that no one should use the beach when they use it.  Particularly, the rock and verbal assaults on tourists on those beaches which are the economic life blood of these towns.  I highly doubt that the issue is resolved.  Was the ban too much, maybe, but the it kept the male relatives off the beach and made the beach safer in the opinion of the other beach users.  Can't co-exist, don't come around. 

 

[AbdullahD]

Abdullah what's your views on public swimming pools having their schedules changed around to male only and female only swim times in order to accommodate cultural sensitivity?  (or gym etc..)

To my knowledge this is already happening in Canada and the USA and not because of Muslims. So I have no issues at all with it and do not see why it is an issue.

As well what about situations where students want male or female only teachers and instructors in order to accommodate their cultural beliefs?

Well then I say that is a weird culture, I prefer Islam

Aisha ra, the prophets wife is considered amongst one of the greatest Islamic teachers of all time and... she taught men. They are other examples too, but suffice to say I do not care what sex a teacher is and I think those that do... are interesting. I personally want the best teachers for me and my kids, no matter which sex they are.

 

[Remius]

Again regardless of the cloth or the court, my understanding of the issue was the muslim men throwing rocks and threatening other users of the beach because their female relatives were in these burkini on said beach and they felt that no one should use the beach when they use it.  Particularly, the rock and verbal assaults on tourists on those beaches which are the economic life blood of these towns.  I highly doubt that the issue is resolved.  Was the ban too much, maybe, but the it kept the male relatives off the beach and made the beach safer in the opinion of the other beach users.  Can't co-exist, don't come around.

Then those men should get the fines and the police come remove them.  Not the women who were doing nothing wrong.  In the end some people don't like what they wear.  That's why the rule was in place.  That's why some Quebec towns banned the burka despite not having one single Muslim living there.  THEY DON'T LIKE IT. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

To my knowledge this is already happening in Canada and the USA and not because of Muslims. So I have no issues at all with it and do not see why it is an issue.

Yea it is I find it pretty stupid myself but I was curious what you though when it's done for cultural reasons specific to Islam.

Maybe we're going the wrong way with that and me and you can start a change.org petition and put and end to segregation.

Well then I say that is a weird culture, I prefer Islam

But that's an issue that's popping up here and there in the news. Muslim students wanting gender specific accommodations.

https://www.rt.com/news/350800-handshake-hamburg-muslim-teacher/  (Story from Germany rather than Canada but easy to see it happen here)

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/york-university-dean-who-granted-students-request-to-keep-from-female-classmates-says-he-wishes-he-had-another-choice

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/teen-felt-degraded-after-teacher-divided-aikido-classes-by-gender-following-male-students-religious-request

Aisha ra, the prophets wife is considered amongst one of the greatest Islamic teachers of all time and... she taught men. They are other examples too, but suffice to say I do not care what sex a teacher is and I think those that do... are interesting. I personally want the best teachers for me and my kids, no matter which sex they are.

So safe to assume you think the accommodations made int he links above are wrong?

 

[AbdullahD]

Yea it is I find it pretty stupid myself but I was curious what you though when it's done for cultural reasons specific to Islam.

Maybe we're going the wrong way with that and me and you can start a change.org petition and put and end to segregation.
But that's an issue that's popping up here and there in the news. Muslim students wanting gender specific accommodations.

https://www.rt.com/news/350800-handshake-hamburg-muslim-teacher/  (Story from Germany rather than Canada but easy to see it happen here)

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/york-university-dean-who-granted-students-request-to-keep-from-female-classmates-says-he-wishes-he-had-another-choice

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/teen-felt-degraded-after-teacher-divided-aikido-classes-by-gender-following-male-students-religious-request

So safe to assume you think the accommodations made int he links above are wrong?

You are very safe in assuming that my friend.

But dont get me wrong I am well aware of groups claiming that 'Islam' requires this or that or the next thing... when Islam has no such requirement. So gender segregation in a very many cases is not needed and counter productive.

Regarding swimming.. I can not understand why it is needed if the awrah is covered. To be bluntly honest I am of an opinion that the awrah rules are relaxed for swimming in this day and age. If a women wears a one piece suit and say shorts or some such combo, then that is good enough. My wife knows more on this topic then I, so I personally follow her lead on it and this is how she goes to the waterpark/pools with my kids.

 

[Remius]

We already have gender segregated facilities everywhere, gyms, martial arts schools/classes, expeditions trips, races, schools etc etc.

This is more of a gender issue than a cultural issue.  Sometimes the lines are blurred but none of this is unique to Islam.

 

[mariomike]

Anyway, it seems the courts in France have put an end to this ban:  http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/burkini-ban-france-overturned-1.3736823

It was set to expire at the end of the month,

The ban remains in place until 31 August 2016
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37171749

For the remaining five days, Nice PD could cross out Burkini and insert "budgie smuggler" on the original. They could keep on ticketing and make up the lost municipal income. < just kidding 

This is more of a gender issue than a cultural issue.  Sometimes the lines are blurred but none of this is unique to Islam.

I was stationed in a predominantly Jewish district. My partner was Jewish. So is my wife.

There were Sabbath rules, Hatzalah, language, religion, cultural and gender considerations. ( On the job, not at home. )

I guess it's like you say, "None of this is unique to Islam." 

 

[Jarnhamar]

We already have gender segregated facilities everywhere, gyms, martial arts schools/classes, expeditions trips, races, schools etc etc.

This is more of a gender issue than a cultural issue.  Sometimes the lines are blurred but none of this is unique to Islam.

For sure, do away with all that segregation crap completely. 

Non-Binary Transgenders will just have to get along with Androgynous and gender fluid types   The context of the martial arts class was seeking gender accommodations in a mixed class.


Also to add OGBD summed up what I was tying to say in the other Islam thread about religious accommodations perfectly. 

 

[mariomike]

US Muslims prep for Islamic holiday around 9/11
https://www.icna.org/us-muslims-prep-for-islamic-holiday-around-911/
NEW YORK — The lunar calendar that Muslims follow for religious holidays is creating a potential for misunderstandings or worse in a year when American Muslims are already confronting a spike in assaults on their faith and protests against new mosques.

What important event could occur on 9/11? Eid al-Adha — the feast of sacrifice, an important holiday for Muslims. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/29/nyregion/muslim-holiday-eid-al-adha-sept-11.html?smid=tw-nytmetro&smtyp=cur&_r

 

[Lightguns]

For sure, do away with all that segregation crap completely. 

Non-Binary Transgenders will just have to get along with Androgynous and gender fluid types   The context of the martial arts class was seeking gender accommodations in a mixed class.


Also to add OGBD summed up what I was tying to say in the other Islam thread about religious accommodations perfectly.

Non-Binary,
Androgynous,
Gender Fluid,

I identify as a Homo Erectus.  You Homo Sapiens got a lot strange stuff going on, us Homo Erectus are in much better shape. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

To my knowledge this is already happening in Canada and the USA and not because of Muslims. So I have no issues at all with it and do not see why it is an issue.

Well then I say that is a weird culture, I prefer Islam

Aisha ra, the prophets wife is considered amongst one of the greatest Islamic teachers of all time and... she taught men. They are other examples too, but suffice to say I do not care what sex a teacher is and I think those that do... are interesting. I personally want the best teachers for me and my kids, no matter which sex they are.

Apparently she was quite critical when the Prophet received a divine blessing to marry his adopted son wife (divorced by the son so Muhammad could marry her).

 

[AbdullahD]

Apparently she was quite critical when the Prophet received a divine blessing to marry his adopted son wife (divorced by the son so Muhammad could marry her).

Zaynab was Zaid's (adopted son's) ex wife and was not divorced so that the Prophet  pbuh could marry her. Zaid and Zaynab simply did not get along, so after the divorce the prophet recieved revelation that it was permissible to marry his adopted sons ex wife, which was something that arab customs at that time considered forbidden.

Many things support the story that Zaynab and Zaid's marriage naturally fell apart and was not forced apart. A few key pieces is one that Zaynab originally refused the Marriage to Zaid supoorted by her brother I believe, another is that Zaynab was from a high class family of the qureysh and Zaid was an ex slave. Also Zaynab under the encouragement from the Prophet married Zaid and the prophet paid the dowery...

So it can hardly be said that Zaid divorced her just so the prophet could marry her. In my opinion. So the first marriage was to establish the legitimacy of adopted sons and ex slaves and the second marriage was to show it was permissible to marry your ex sons wife, if you desire.

Abdullah

Ps it is allowed to be critical of the Prophet within reason. Even Allah himself criticized him in the Quran, for ignoring a Muslim. Anywho the competition between Zaynab and Aisha is well known, no doubt she would be critical of her.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Yes, I know I read somewhere that one (can't recall which one) of the prophet's wife claimed that the prophet could somehow, amazingly and suddenly "receive revelations" to support exactly what he wanted to do, but was against the rules of the times - until the revelation changed the matter.

Sheer coincidence though!

;D

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=AbdullahD]
Many things support the story that Zaynab and Zaid's marriage naturally fell apart and was not forced apart.[/quote]

So it can hardly be said that Zaid divorced her just so the prophet could marry her.

Sorry dude I don't think anyone is buying that. Just doing a little bit of google research it sounds like the Prophet Muhammad had a lot of sex with pretty much anyone and everyone he wanted to.

Ps it is allowed to be critical of the Prophet within reason.

Again I kind of doubt it.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/65013/Two-Muslim-men-jailed-after-brutally-attacking-couple-because-they-ordered-a-blasphemous-ham-pizza
Thursday, 1 September 2016
Two Muslim men jailed after brutally attacking couple because they ordered a ‘blasphemous’ ham pizza

Two Muslim men have been jailed after they brutally attacked a couple for eating a “blasphemous” ham pizza. Youness Boussaid and Fatah Bouzid, both 27, approached their victims at a food vendor near Le Mix Bar in in Douai, France, and offered them cocaine. When the two Arab men noticed ham on the couple’s pizza they told them they would “go to hell” for eating it.

After being accused of eating the ham, which is forbidden in the Islamic religion, the couple suffered a brutal and humiliating ordeal from their attackers. The attackers caressed the woman’s blond hair before forcing their fingers into her nose, causing her to lose consciousness and fall to the ground. They then began to beat her male friend before security staff from Le Mix Bar intervened.

Seriously? A little cocaine is a-okay but don't eat ham.  Followers of Islam need to chill out with that shit.

 

[Lumber]

Followers of Islam need to chill out with that crap.

This story has absolutely nothing to do with Islam. You could find a thousand similar incidents of hypocrisy involving members of every other religion.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

However when you have 1.6billion followers and 1-3% are full nutbar and another 20% will support them in one way or another to take over the world using violence and subversion, you still have a big problem. Islam currently has active conflicts which are killing people with just about every other major religion right now. I can't recall any other religion that can claim that.

 

[Journeyman]

Sorry, I've got to back the druggies on this one.  Ham doesn't go on pizza, and those cheese-eating, surrender monkeys probably should  go to hell for it.    :nod:

 

[Lightguns]

Sorry dude I don't think anyone is buying that. Just doing a little bit of google research it sounds like the Prophet Muhammad had a lot of sex with pretty much anyone and everyone he wanted to.

Isn't funny how folks that go around with the prophet title seemed to get laid a lot?

 

[McG]

Sorry, I've got to back the druggies on this one.  Ham doesn't go on pizza, and those cheese-eating, surrender monkeys probably should  go to hell for it.    :nod: 

No.  You are thinking pineapple.  Pineapple does not go on pizza.