History of the Arab-Jewish Conflict

[Bo]

Since it seems like everyone is interested in what's happening in the middle east right now, I decided that we should all step back in time and look at the root cause of this crisis.

Forget Hezbollah, the captured soldiers or the Palestinian situation. Let's go back even before Israel was created.

What I'm hoping for is for people to gain a deep understanding of this whole situation. They don't teach you history on the news these days so hopefully, once we learn the history of the whole Arab-Israeli conflict, we can make more informed, objective opinions on the matter.

Now, we may not all be history majors (I'm a computer geek myself) but with the help of the internet (wikipedia ), we should all be able to contribute something.

Now where do we start? I say 1917 with the Balfour declaration. Here's the brief summary of it which I read from Wikipedia and then placed into my own words....

1917 Balfour Declaration
· During WWI, many fighting countries, economy in shambles, were vying for the resources of the Zionist movement.

· The Zionist movement was involved in negotiations with Germany, Russia, Britain, France and America to support the goals of the Zionist movement – namely support for Jewish migration to Palestine (why Palestine?)

· Britain won the support of the Zionist movement after creating the Balfour Declaration (What is the Balfour declaration?).


So basically, we'll continue forward in time (or backwards if someone feels that I've buggered the starting date), marking every major event that has occurred involving the Arabs and the Jews. Now here's the hard part. We actually have to do research and THINK! No more right/left wing bashing.  Hopefully, this thread will remain flame-free and we can expand our knowledge on this topic.


RULES:

1. If you cannot back up your statement without some kind of proof, it does not belong in this thread.
2. Make sure you list your sources.
3. I encourage people to challenge the accuracy of others' posts, but please keep it civil. NO FLAMING!
4. Start date is 1917. Move forward from there. Yes, I realise there's plenty of history prior to that date but in regards to the CURRENT situation, most relevant events occurred in this century.

 

[KevinB]

You can go Back WAY further than that...

 

[Remius]

You can go Back WAY further than that...

I'm currently reading some stuff with the Romans and the Judean conflict they had with the "Zealots" (that's where the term comes from ironically).

The Roman's solution to the many uprisings and rebellions was brutal yet efficient.  Destroy the root of the problem then disperse what's left out of the territory.  The effects of which lasted nearly 2000 years.

Interesting read.

 

[Bo]

You can go Back WAY further than that...

Remember, we're talking about the Arab-Jewish (or Israeli) conflict. We can go back a couple thousand years if we want to trace Judaism to it's roots.

But again, I'm no history major. Do you have any particular starting date that you'd recommend?

 

[TMM]

A good starting date might be the Biblical tale of the Exodus.

 

[KevinB]

I'm with TMM on that.

The fact that there became an Arab-Israeli issue was the Israeli/Jews did not have a homeland.

When they where given a homeland - someone else had to go...
When we gave Israel to the Jewish people for a homeland we accepted the fallout of that issue.
  Go figure the Palestinians might be a bit miffed they where uprooted 

Once they have killed enough of each other or one side prevails then we will get peace.

 

[54/102 CEF]

Hi!

Glad somebody's heading down a new path.

I have only 1 point to add - when you say Arab you probably mean Islamic. I'll refer you to these two links

Something called Terror's Mask by Mike Vlahos http://www.jhuapl.edu/POW/library/Terror_Islamsm.pdf
and a link to 2 other papers he's written http://www.jhuapl.edu/POW/bios/vlahos.htm which are Culture’s Mask: War and Change After Iraq (2004), and his paper: Two Enemies: Non-State Actors and Change in the Muslim World.

The one paragraph synopsis is as follows: What we call Islamic radicals say they are fighting the west to break their links to the nonbeliever governments maintained artificially by the west and thieving oil rich hereditary rulers. You can`t deal with the radical because they immersed in a belief system that only recognises one eventuality - they are right and you are wrong and you will lose. He concludes with a series of scenarios which are mainly status quo or - status quo plus kill off the terrorists and try and co-opt  the remainder in the cities. Whatever change comes to the Islamic world - compared to pre-2001, is very difficult to forecast. The west prefers supposed democratic organisations but the long term political system in Islam centres on the small family group sometimes known as a tribe. If the change should go counter to the wests ideal outcome - he says the radicals will still have to deal with the rest of the world. Thus he ends with can we keep it in balance, chase terrorists and build economic, financial and cultural links to Islamic countries? Only time will tell.

 

[TMM]

The Arab/Isreali conflict was aorund long before the creation of Islam.

 

[Kirkhill]

A good starting date might be the Biblical tale of the Exodus.

Go back a bit further yet when a chap name of Abraham from the Iraqi city of Ur made his way into land current territory of Israel by way of the town of Homs Haran (apparently named for his brother) in the area currently recognized as Syria.  He received permission from the locals in what is now Israel to pasture and water his flocks and bought a piece of land from them to bury his wife when she died.  You don't have to get too far into Genesis for that tale. (Starts at Chapter 11)

Discussions followed forthwith.

 

[Remius]

Remember, we're talking about the Arab-Jewish (or Israeli) conflict. We can go back a couple thousand years if we want to trace Judaism to it's roots.

But again, I'm no history major. Do you have any particular starting date that you'd recommend?

Well I would start with the Roman occupation of the Holy land.  Basically it led to the destruction of the Judaic religious centre and led to the forming of Rabbinacal Judeaism.  Plus it also led to the Jewish people being exiled out of Palastine for what amounts to about 2000 years.   The muslims took over when the Roman empire fell, then some crusades, etc etc.  

It'll be interesting to see where all of this ends up 2000 years from now.

 

[54/102 CEF]

The Arab/Isreali conflict was aorund long before the creation of Islam.

Well that would put Islam having been created after 1948....

but seriously read the first link. Its quite an eye opener and an easy read. It explains why Islam is what it is - short and to the point.

 

[TMM]

I meant Israeli in the sense of culture/nation not the political entity. Sorry about that(2 hours sleep and no coffee).

I will definitely read the links after a good sleep. When my parents lived in the Middle East they heard from all sides and I'm open to as much info as I can get.

 

[1feral1]

I look at it this way, that whole region has been at each others throats since ancient times, and if they can't fight with someone else, they'll fight with themselves.

It was not that long ago a former Israeli PM was a wanted terrorist by the British, nor can you forget the crusifiction of captured British soldiers.

As much as there has been so much tit for tat violence, I am with Israel for this war, as look what is going on. Rocket attacks and suicide bombers. They have simply had a gut full, so lets let them sort it out.

Go hard Israel!

Now, immigrants have exported that middleastern hatred to our countries. A cycle of hate, and Israel is now caught up in it all. Even in our own cities, there is tribal unrest. Plenty of killings and violence. Here in Australia middle eastern gangs out-gun the police, hate our laws, customs and traditions, putting their religion before anything else.

Our own safety is in strife, with islamic sleeper cells and people bent on setting off bombs in our faces, hating us for the way we live. Its a fact, and a sad one at that.


Regards,

Wes

 

[Bo]

Wes, I'll try to be polite. This thread was made to discuss the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict, not your own middle-eastern rant. That's how the flaming starts.

Well, it looks like everyone has a different take on when the conflict started. The way I see it though, prior to 1917, Jews and Arabs lived in relative peace. Yes there was still anti-semitism but not anywhere close to what we saw after Britain agreed to give the Jews their own land.

It's quite interesting because had Germany succeeded in winning the Zionist movement's support, it could have changed the outcome of alot of things.....maybe even the war!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Bo,

If you wish to eliminate certain aspects from the conversation, we'll all stop posting while you set the thread parameters. Make them sufficiently broad so they can include some off the wall stuff, but tight enough to maintain the general flow on the subject. Define that subject, so everyone is clear. I would also call for verifiable sources, from educational and scholarly sources, not blogs and wiki stuff. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, and if you want it to fly, get the rules posted. Otherwise anyone is allowed to state whatever opinion they wish on the subject.

For the rest,

Please refrain from posting until Bo does his thing.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

PS - good idea recceguy.  Out.

...but you posted anyway :. Guess I'll lock it til Bo's ready.

Bo,

You can let me or another Mod know when you've got the rules done.

 

[Bo]

Alright guys/girls, the rules are posted.

1917 is the start date. Here is the official Balfour declaration:

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely, Arthur James Balfour

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1917/balfour.html

So according to this document, the British promise the Jews a national home in Palestine so long as the rights of non-Jews living there are not infringed upon.

Lets get the ball rolling...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

From Bo's first post:

RULES:

1. If you cannot back up your statement without some kind of proof, it does not belong in this thread.
2. Make sure you list your sources.
3. I encourage people to challenge the accuracy of others' posts, but please keep it civil. NO FLAMING!
4. Start date is 1917. Move forward from there. Yes, I realise there's plenty of history prior to that date but in regards to the CURRENT situation, most relevant events occurred in this century.  

 

[exsemjingo]

"4.The most relevant events occurred this century."

If only!  As far as the Arab-Israeli conflict goes, 1948 may as well be yesterday.
Not that I carry much weight around here, but I say as long as posts beat the CBC's standards of research and objectivity, this thread could be very insightful and informative.

 

[Genetk44]

I think that, although for the purpose of this discussion useing a start date of 1917/Balfour Declaration is very sensible, we must also take into consideration the general makeup of the area in question, as it was ,immediatly precedeeding the 1917 start date.
Example: pre 1917 and going back quite a time(100s of years at least), the area of present day Syria,Lebanon,Isreal,the Sinai, and the western coast of Arabia were essentially provinces of the Ottoman Empire peopled by a very diverse population...Jews,Muslims,Christians,Copts, Druze,Armenians,Europeans,Turks etc...furthermore the states of Syria,Lebanon,Isreal,Palestine,Saudi Arabia did not exist as nation-states in 1917 and had not existed as nation-states either at all, or for hundreds(1000 years in the case of a Jewish state) pre-1917....just a few things to consider when thinking about this whole situation. ;D
Cheers
Gene