Good News for British Columbia

[Infanteer]

I understood that we were talking about BC politics and Canadian universities and colleges, not American ones.   My comment about private institutions relates to the great influx of private colleges that we have now in BC.

We have Private Colleges in BC?  You mean like Sprott Shaw and all those other rinky dink ones?  Ok, but I don't think those were what were being debated about with regards to university tuition.

 

[DJ]

If paying more fees actually led to more options, I'd be in full agreement.  The reality is that tuition fees have gone up, but choices have become more limited.  Increased tution fees have not gone to increasing options for students.  From the Public Bodies Documents (available at each institution's library - probably in the archives) one might surmise that any gains from increased tuition revenue have gone to substantially increase the salaries of senior administrators.

 

I know for a fact that admin pay has been increasing.  After our first 30% increase President Piper 'coincidently' got a 30% payraise.  Of course I wasn't too pleased at this but when one looks into her record it is justifiable.  She has brought a huge increase in grant funding (I don't have the exact amount on me, I believe the student newspaper reported to say the increase was 3X).  This alone outweighs any negative impact her (deserved) raise gave her.  If paying more fees actually led to more options, I'd be ecstatic.  The previous tuition freeze crippled the university and I wouldn't expect the university to instantly recuperate.  The way I see it, I'm not paying more $ for more options; I'm paying more to maintain the options I have. 

As for private universities, I see no place for them in society. Knowledge should not be privatized.  The dissemination of information is for benefit of society.  I'm an advocate of free university (and I'm not just being a selfish student--I'm practically done and all paid up).  I believe that The Netherlands and Ireland have free post-secondary, and their economies are booming because they have the qualified personnel to satisfy the demands of their knowledge-based economies. Elementary and secondary school were not always free.  As economies advanced, societies felt it suitable to educate citizens accordingly so as to ensure competitiveness.  In the increasingly globalized world in which a 'knowledge economy' is prevalent, raising the ceiling of free education is going to be a factor in future competition. I would not mind my taxes subsidizing education as a means of ensuring that there will be enough doctors in the future when I need one. 

Access is probably one of the largest problems facing universities in BC.  Students with an 85% are not getting in.  This is because of the funding shortfall (read:  less govt investment and tuition freeze).  It would be even worse if universities weren't admitting more students than they're funded for, (which they do to try to keep the enrollment average from sky-rocketing further).  I would like to see a stat of how many qualified students we're actually losing because of this.


DJ

 

[Infanteer]

As for private universities, I see no place for them in society. Knowledge should not be privatized.

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  Knowledge and learning are nothing more then going out and listening/reading/pondering what others have to say.  If someone wishes to charge admission and others are willing to pay, then all the power to them.

Private universities have been around since Plato opened the Akademia.

 

[DJ]

I listen/read/ponder what others have to say (such as yourself) on the internet, yet it is not privatized.  I don't see absolute harm in private schools but I do think that society as a whole benefits more when information is not privatized.  Understandably, being able to profit from ideas is necessary for innovation but where does the profiteering stop?  I'm reminded of one of the many arguments in global North/South relations.  Property rights on medication are fiercely defended by the pharmaceutical companies.  People who can not afford these designer meds are dying while their governments are legally unable to offer generic substitutes.  This is what I think of when I say that knowledge should not be privatized and why there are areas, such as health care and education, where the government should ensure that the public system is top-notch.  I don't want to believe that modern society should be characterized as a system in which the rich are able to claim a monopoly on knowledge while those who are unable (not unwilling) to pay are cast aside. 

DJ

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

I listen/read/ponder what others have to say (such as yourself) on the internet, yet it is not privatized.

REALLY?  Then how come I'm paying for it?

 

[Zartan]

Are you sure the minimum wage in B.C. is $6 - I'm rather sure it is $8, for 2nd or third highest in the country. Regardless, $6 minimum wage is still higher than Alberta's ($5.90), and at par with Newfoundland and Labrador, not that it's anything to be proud of. Unemployment Rates for April, 2005: NL=15%(ish); BC=7%(at par with the Canadian average). Furthermore, wasn't the BC budget surplus more along the lines of $2B? I heard (from the Calgary Herald Business section) that with federal transfer payments, BC's budget surplus approached said figure. Regardless, they are still doing better than under the NDP, but of course that can be affected by so many external factors that you would need awhile to compose an effective study to determine whether Gordon Campbell is responsible for most of it.

 

[redleafjumper]

Yes the "training wage" in BC is six bucks - the Canadian Federation of Students has a campaign against it called "Six Bucks Sucks". Zartan makes some good points.  The NDP caused a lot of trouble for British Columbians - the failure to log Tweedsmuir Park in the early stages of the pine beetle epidemic, the grizzly bear hunting ban, the fast ferry fiasco, the questions raised by Clark's patio and so on.  It is not clear (to me)that the liberals are any better.  There are major problems with the BC political system and the two dominant parties are not really helping by their extreme swings of the pendulum.  I should point out that the last party to make dramatic increases to funding in the areas of public education and health care was the last government of the Social Credit under Bill Vander Zalm. 
It is also worthwhile to note that sometimes private education works well for some applications; however there are limitations.  I have worked in both systems for many years and I have found that there are advantages and disadvantages to both, I tend to prefer public education for academic purposes because I  see the results while I am cognisant of the administrative abuses.  The private institutions that I am referring to are exactly those mushroom pop-ups like Sprott Shaw. There are many others but they mostly follow the same trend - choose, use, abuse, and then refuse (to rehire).

 

[Infanteer]

The private institutions that I am referring to are exactly those mushroom pop-ups like Sprott Shaw. There are many others but they mostly follow the same trend - choose, use, abuse, and then refuse (to rehire).

Perhaps this is a problem in the accreditation process?  I remember seeing a row of "colleges" lined up on second story offices in Richmond BC - I'm convinced that they were conduits for immigrants or Al-Qaeda sleeper cells.  Now, maybe Sprott Shaw and Co. aren't at that level, but they never struck me as anything different then those late night infomercials that offer diplomas in accounting, marketing, and private investigations.  I'm not too familiar with the process of educational accreditation, but perhaps it should hone in on places that plan on become institutions of learning rather then printing houses for diplomas.

 

[Edward Campbell]

...
The private institutions that I am referring to are exactly those mushroom pop-ups like Sprott Shaw.

You mean the Sprott-Shaw colleges which have been in business for over 100 years - longer than the Canadian Navy?  Some pop-up; some mushroom.

Public schools have, traditionally, done a lousy job at vocational training - they did 100+ years ago, which is why Messers Sprott and Shaw became rich doing what the public sector could not (actually would not) do.  The public schools still manage to avoid doing what's needed for the trades (including the admin support trades) - which is why Sprott-Shaw and others are still in business.

Of course there are a bunch of unscrupulous fly-by-night operators and crooks and people smugglers, too, out there.  But, the big, important But, is that there are a bunch of people doing what the public sector fails to do, over and over and over again.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>No, you are wrong about contracts

No, I am _right_ about _teacher_ (as in, not post-secondary) contracts.  When contract language dictates how the business will be structured and run, it has crossed the line.

A sense of entitlement and a risk-intolerant membership can also make for a strong union irrespective of the abilities of the management team.

Private adult education institutions - I do not choose to confuse them with the popular meaning of universities or colleges as  understood in BC - are entirely reliant on their graduates for their reputations.  No one will hire the graduates on the basis of their qualifications if the graduates are thought to be insufficiently prepared.  I doubt the prospective employers care one whit about the facilities or the credentials of the faculty.

I imagine most people who believe in social justice should support higher tuitions - why should those who are already privileged continue to increase their lock on privilege at the expense of public subsidy?  Charge higher tuitions, and provide more public funding assistance to the needy and deserving.  If the argument is that educating more people will enable them to obtain better employment, larger paycheques, and larger income tax payments, then they should have no problem carrying and paying debt as easily as they pay income taxes.  What is socially just is that people who don't have a shot at the brass ring shouldn't have to pay income taxes to subsidize those who do.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Are you sure the minimum wage in B.C. is $6 - I'm rather sure it is $8, for 2nd or third highest in the country. Regardless, $6 minimum wage is still higher than Alberta's ($5.90), and at par with Newfoundland and Labrador, not that it's anything to be proud of.

Well, I'm sure be pleased to learn that Cuba is the pre-eminent emerging economic powerhouse:

CUBA: Minimum wage doubles

On April 21, Cuban President Fidel Castro announced an increase in the minimum wage to 225 pesos (US$9.40) a month, up from 100 pesos now. The increase will affect 1,657,191 workers, most of them working in agriculture, the service sector, the food industry, or working as auxiliary staff in hospitals and schools. The increase will cost the state 1.6 billion pesos, and raise the nation's average wage from 282 pesos to 300 pesos a year. At the end of March, Castro announced big increases in pension payments.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2005/625/625p13g.htm

What Canada really needs is an economic literacy campaign ...

 

[sdimock]

As I recall (and it's been a few years, finished in 89) it wasn't tuition and books that was the biggest cost of post secondary education, it was food and shelter that rang up the bills.

 

[Infanteer]

As I recall (and it's been a few years, finished in 89) it wasn't tuition and books that was the biggest cost of post secondary education, it was food and shelter that rang up the bills.

Makes sense - and one can pay for room and board the way every other Average Joe does, by working.