A
aesop081
Guest
anyone what to take a stab at how long it takes for someone to remove the drag because of excessive wear on uniforms and equipment ?
Or am i being to cynical ?
Or am i being to cynical ?
Fireman Carry replaced by Casualty Drag
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CDN Aviator said:
Nope. I'm already trying to figure out how to make the appropriate weighted drag dummy, locally, at minimal cost.
In the meantime, I think we can alleviate some of it by the dragee wearing coveralls.
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CDN Aviator said:
No, not at all, actually...which is why I think they have stressed the "on grass" part.
You are completely right that combat-PT style events (casualty drag specifically) if done on something like a dirt or gravel road will completely destroy the butt of the casualty's pants.
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recceguy said:
Sandbags stuffed in coveralls? Around 40-55 kg is what our man over board dummies weigh in at.
And Vern +1
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recceguy said:
We might not see eye to all on some threads, but that is a really good idea. And there's no logical reason it can't be a dummy, either (if the guy being dragged is dead weight anyway).
It will be interesting to see if they don't set up little areas like they did with the gravel dig, where the unit signs out the key to the grassed area and the dummies.
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OPP use a dummy...harness I made for them has loops on the shoulder to simulate under the arms and a loop in the middle to simulate a strap on a vest....reason being 170 lbs of sand does not really simulate a person except for weight...sand is alot more fluid than a human body
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I am sorry that I was so blinded by some of the dumber comments in this thread (much earlier) that I missed mariomike's excellently informed post about why firefighters don't use the "fireman's carry". He was bang on.
As someone who trains all the time to use drags and carries I'll comment as such. Taking the time first to say that I believe I might feel differently with bullets being hucked at me. Having said that, I feel I can comment on a drag’s effectiveness and the stresses one goes through in training. I have employed drags during a real situation on a few occasions but it was never as practiced and never pretty and always about three times faster. But if you want to speak about it from a simple training perspective...
Single person drag: as shown in the pics waaaay above, put the casualty into an upright position with your knee in their back to keep them upright, then reach through their armpits and grasp the arms - left hand on left forearm, right hand on right forearm. Lift and drag. Getting the person as high as possible will aid in this drag but might not be feasible in combat or in a fire situation where it seems that in both scenarios getting higher equals exposing yourself to more danger.
Note: we do not subscribe to the theory that one should grasp opposite forearms or wrists of the casualty. This can create a choking hazard for the casualty and is harder, in terms of kinetics, to accomplish.
Two person drag: we always have casualties/dummies who are wearing coveralls, thankfully...Roll casualty’s collar down and zip the covies to about mid chest. Person on either side grasps roll made with collar about three inches from center of collar and drag victim out. Seems to me this would be the best if one wanted to stay low.
There is a variant of this that sees a single person rolling the covies down and performing the drag but, in my experience, this is the hardest to do and the most back breaking.
Two person carry: the person at the head does the same as they would if they were going to perform a single person drag except when they lift there is a person at the feet. The person at the feet will cross the casualty’s ankles and grasp the coveralls at the bottom ankle thereby giving them a handle of sorts. Again, same issues with the carry as the single person drag, height.
I can see why some of this might not be realistic in a shooting scenario because someone may have been relieved of limbs. But from a mere training perspective it is a good test of strength and one that firefighters have included into their sporting event, the Firefighter Combat Challenge. The final event in the race is the dummy drag and the high drag is used. Now this is a race, not a fire. Were I to perform this drag in a fire I’d cook my head and likely expose the casualty to tremendous heat and smoke.
As far as the grass/gravel/pavement debate goes: when we train to rescue downed firefighters we use a technique called “humping” because, em, it looks pretty sexual. Basically in a two rescuer scenario you would have the person at the feet throw the casualty’s legs over his shoulders and his job would be to keep the casualty sliding on his SCBA cylinder as the person at the head used a DRD (drag rescue device, incorporated into our jackets) to pull. It is hilarious to see this happen the first time.
I mention it because a few fiscally minded Chiefs were concerned that too much training in this scenario caused damage, sometimes, to the cylinders and harnesses of the SCBA and at about 3 grand a crack they wanted to limit that. Those Chiefs are idiots. Is there a concern, yes. But it’s very minor. Point is, if you’re using drags to test someone’s strength then you can allow some latitude. But if you want them to learn this so as to use it in a real situation then you should amp it up and make it as real as possible.
As far as what has been easier for me, having done the military’s version of the fireman’s carry as well as the drags I use now for work: they both fucking suck. They both kick your ass. The carry involves a good heave and then steady motion and you can easily frig your back with that heave.. The drag leaves your knees feeling like you’ve just done up-he-sees-me-down for a mile (if done properly)
Dummies: there are tons of ways to make/buy one. There’s the Rescue Randy series, a pre made dummy meant for this type of thing. There’s the bundle of fire hoses in coveralls. Sandbags. Whatever. One of my best mates, who is elite level in the Combat Challenge (sub 1:45 time) drags skidder tires around, it works for him.
The thing I was fortunate enough to learn very early is that there are easy ways to do it all and if you were to watch someone who is highly trained in confined space rescue you’d see how they “manipulate” the victim to get them through passages the easiest. The body will bend and turn certain ways and will snap if you try others. As much as we say “life over limb” we also try to preserve your previous quality of life as much as possible. I could go further into confined spaces but it’s a deep subject and I do not think it relates, if you have questions though, ask me.
So, there, a full read on drags. Do with it what you will. As said, I don’t have to worry about a battlefield when I do this. However I do have to worry about exposure to heat and all things associated with that plus the fact that my casualty faces increased risk of getting dead the longer it takes me to get them out.
As someone who trains all the time to use drags and carries I'll comment as such. Taking the time first to say that I believe I might feel differently with bullets being hucked at me. Having said that, I feel I can comment on a drag’s effectiveness and the stresses one goes through in training. I have employed drags during a real situation on a few occasions but it was never as practiced and never pretty and always about three times faster. But if you want to speak about it from a simple training perspective...
Single person drag: as shown in the pics waaaay above, put the casualty into an upright position with your knee in their back to keep them upright, then reach through their armpits and grasp the arms - left hand on left forearm, right hand on right forearm. Lift and drag. Getting the person as high as possible will aid in this drag but might not be feasible in combat or in a fire situation where it seems that in both scenarios getting higher equals exposing yourself to more danger.
Note: we do not subscribe to the theory that one should grasp opposite forearms or wrists of the casualty. This can create a choking hazard for the casualty and is harder, in terms of kinetics, to accomplish.
Two person drag: we always have casualties/dummies who are wearing coveralls, thankfully...Roll casualty’s collar down and zip the covies to about mid chest. Person on either side grasps roll made with collar about three inches from center of collar and drag victim out. Seems to me this would be the best if one wanted to stay low.
There is a variant of this that sees a single person rolling the covies down and performing the drag but, in my experience, this is the hardest to do and the most back breaking.
Two person carry: the person at the head does the same as they would if they were going to perform a single person drag except when they lift there is a person at the feet. The person at the feet will cross the casualty’s ankles and grasp the coveralls at the bottom ankle thereby giving them a handle of sorts. Again, same issues with the carry as the single person drag, height.
I can see why some of this might not be realistic in a shooting scenario because someone may have been relieved of limbs. But from a mere training perspective it is a good test of strength and one that firefighters have included into their sporting event, the Firefighter Combat Challenge. The final event in the race is the dummy drag and the high drag is used. Now this is a race, not a fire. Were I to perform this drag in a fire I’d cook my head and likely expose the casualty to tremendous heat and smoke.
As far as the grass/gravel/pavement debate goes: when we train to rescue downed firefighters we use a technique called “humping” because, em, it looks pretty sexual. Basically in a two rescuer scenario you would have the person at the feet throw the casualty’s legs over his shoulders and his job would be to keep the casualty sliding on his SCBA cylinder as the person at the head used a DRD (drag rescue device, incorporated into our jackets) to pull. It is hilarious to see this happen the first time.
I mention it because a few fiscally minded Chiefs were concerned that too much training in this scenario caused damage, sometimes, to the cylinders and harnesses of the SCBA and at about 3 grand a crack they wanted to limit that. Those Chiefs are idiots. Is there a concern, yes. But it’s very minor. Point is, if you’re using drags to test someone’s strength then you can allow some latitude. But if you want them to learn this so as to use it in a real situation then you should amp it up and make it as real as possible.
As far as what has been easier for me, having done the military’s version of the fireman’s carry as well as the drags I use now for work: they both fucking suck. They both kick your ass. The carry involves a good heave and then steady motion and you can easily frig your back with that heave.. The drag leaves your knees feeling like you’ve just done up-he-sees-me-down for a mile (if done properly)
Dummies: there are tons of ways to make/buy one. There’s the Rescue Randy series, a pre made dummy meant for this type of thing. There’s the bundle of fire hoses in coveralls. Sandbags. Whatever. One of my best mates, who is elite level in the Combat Challenge (sub 1:45 time) drags skidder tires around, it works for him.
The thing I was fortunate enough to learn very early is that there are easy ways to do it all and if you were to watch someone who is highly trained in confined space rescue you’d see how they “manipulate” the victim to get them through passages the easiest. The body will bend and turn certain ways and will snap if you try others. As much as we say “life over limb” we also try to preserve your previous quality of life as much as possible. I could go further into confined spaces but it’s a deep subject and I do not think it relates, if you have questions though, ask me.
So, there, a full read on drags. Do with it what you will. As said, I don’t have to worry about a battlefield when I do this. However I do have to worry about exposure to heat and all things associated with that plus the fact that my casualty faces increased risk of getting dead the longer it takes me to get them out.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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I find it odd that we seem to be confusing 'battle fitness training' with 'preparing for battle'. If we're focusing on the former we don't need to drag anyone around, dummy or not ;D
And FWIW, I've never seen anything like this in any of several different BFTs I've done in the past with other armies. I HAVE done the dragging thing as part of battle PT sessions before, though it was more for the purposes of administering a good old fashioned beasting than a test.
And FWIW, I've never seen anything like this in any of several different BFTs I've done in the past with other armies. I HAVE done the dragging thing as part of battle PT sessions before, though it was more for the purposes of administering a good old fashioned beasting than a test.
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I am in the same boat in terms of it having been done in PT before either on a course on in a unit.
It is a fairly good initiative though, especially if it's been shown that the vast majority of the time if someone is hurt the buddy is going to try to drag them first.
My concern was that as long as it's not easier I'm all for it, because 25m doesn't seem like that far (compared to 100m of spine compression).
It is a fairly good initiative though, especially if it's been shown that the vast majority of the time if someone is hurt the buddy is going to try to drag them first.
My concern was that as long as it's not easier I'm all for it, because 25m doesn't seem like that far (compared to 100m of spine compression).
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The subject reminds me of "All Quiet on The Western Front". The scene, near the very end of the movie, where the younger soldier carries his wounded comrade, over his sholder, to safety ( not knowing he is already dead ).
"Looks like the old bread wagon broke down. I guess I don't walk the rest of the way.":
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7300946306109319965&hl=en#
"Looks like the old bread wagon broke down. I guess I don't walk the rest of the way.":
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7300946306109319965&hl=en#
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Pentagon Seeks Robo-EMS to Rescue Wounded Warriors:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/03/pentagon-seeks-robo-ems-to-rescue-wounded-warriors/
Battlefield Extraction-Assist Robot B.E.A.R. :
http://www.botmag.com/articles/04-25-07_vecna_bear.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6729745.stm
http://vecnarobotics.com/solutions/bear/index.shtml
I know it's "just a robot", but the walking cradle carry has the most calming effect of all the Lifts and Carries. My all time fav!
Robots used to be popular in sci-fi movies:
http://amysrobot.com/files/forbidden_planet.JPG
Japan Emergency Services in the pic below.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/03/pentagon-seeks-robo-ems-to-rescue-wounded-warriors/
Battlefield Extraction-Assist Robot B.E.A.R. :
http://www.botmag.com/articles/04-25-07_vecna_bear.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6729745.stm
http://vecnarobotics.com/solutions/bear/index.shtml
I know it's "just a robot", but the walking cradle carry has the most calming effect of all the Lifts and Carries. My all time fav!
Robots used to be popular in sci-fi movies:
http://amysrobot.com/files/forbidden_planet.JPG
Japan Emergency Services in the pic below.
BDTyre
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I've never had to drag or carry a casualty in combat.
I'm not a medic, EMT, paramedic, firefighter, policemen etc. civy side.
I have however, done a fair number of BFTs. Each and every one I've done we did not fireman carry the casualty from a laying position because of the risk of injury. They always "climbed" on to us.
I have also witnessed one person blow a knee out two years ago and as a result, he has been unable to progress in his career so far. I've also know someone who had their wrist broken as the result of a fall during the fireman's carry.
I recall the firemen who taught my first aid on BMQ telling us that they don't do the fireman's carry anymore and they showed us several other methods (none of which I can recall at the moment).
As for the tacvest - well, I've been dragged around by mine and have dragged others around at least 3 times a week for 4 weeks straight in Wainwright, and no one's broke.
My only concern is that my unit will make us do the drag across the mystery substance that composes our parade square leaving all of us with large black streaks on our asses for the rest of the night.
I'm not a medic, EMT, paramedic, firefighter, policemen etc. civy side.
I have however, done a fair number of BFTs. Each and every one I've done we did not fireman carry the casualty from a laying position because of the risk of injury. They always "climbed" on to us.
I have also witnessed one person blow a knee out two years ago and as a result, he has been unable to progress in his career so far. I've also know someone who had their wrist broken as the result of a fall during the fireman's carry.
I recall the firemen who taught my first aid on BMQ telling us that they don't do the fireman's carry anymore and they showed us several other methods (none of which I can recall at the moment).
As for the tacvest - well, I've been dragged around by mine and have dragged others around at least 3 times a week for 4 weeks straight in Wainwright, and no one's broke.
My only concern is that my unit will make us do the drag across the mystery substance that composes our parade square leaving all of us with large black streaks on our asses for the rest of the night.
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Spanky said:
op: Vern will be along any second now.- Reaction score
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Well as long as we are going for realism on the BFT we might as well replace the ruck march with a 13km LAV ride displaying moderate vigilance.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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mariomike said:
I’ve always wanted the title ‘OPI Drag Implementation’, although up to now I thought that it would have something to do with women’s clothing…
;D
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