Fireman Carry replaced by Casualty Drag

[meni0n]

Yes, CANLANDGEN 009. I checked the site and it`s just not posted there yet. It came out only this wendsday so it might be a while before it`s there.

 

[Occam]

DWAN Link

R 241620Z FEB 10
FM NDHQ CLS OTTAWA
TO CANLANDGEN
BT
UNCLAS CANLANDGEN 009/10 CLS 009/10
SIC WAB
SUBJ: CANLANDGEN FEB 10 - IMPLEMENTATION OF THE CASUALTY DRAG WITHIN
BILINGUAL MESSAGE / MESSAGE BILINGUE
REFS: A. B-GL-382 -003/PT-001 ARMY FITNESS MANUAL (AFM) (2005-05-25)
B. ARMY FITNESS MANUAL (AFM) SUPPLEMENT: CASUALTY DRAG TRAINING
PROGRAM
C. LFCO 24-02 PHYSICAL FITNESS
1. ON 23 NOV 09, ARMY COUNCIL APPROVED AN IMPLEMENTATION PLAN TO
REPLACE THE FIREMANS CARRY WITH A CASUALTY DRAG WITHIN THE CASUALTY
EVACUATION COMPONENT OF THE LFCPFS.
2. EFFECTIVE 1 APR 10, THE FIREMANS CARRY WILL BE REPLACED WITH A
TWO-HANDED DRAG OF A FELLOW SOLDIER OF EQUAL WEIGHT BUT WEIGHING NO
LESS THAN 70KG BY THE TAC VEST/WEBBING ON A GRASSED SURFACE.  THE
DISTANCE OF THE DRAG IS 25M AND MUST BE PERFORMED IN A CONTINOUS
MANNER WHILE WALKING BACKWARDS. ALL INFORMATION REGARDING THE
CHANGES, INCLUDING TRAINING PROGRAMS AND RATIONALE MAY BE VIEWED AT
THE FOLLOWING LINK:
HHTP://LFDTS.KINGSTON.MIL.CA/ARMYFITNESS/DEFAULT-ENG.ASP
3. THE AFM REMAINS THE REF THAT GOVERNS PHYSICAL FITNESS TRAINING
AND TESTING FOR ALL LFC PERSONNEL. THE AFM IS CURRENTLY AVAILABLE IN
ONLINE FORMAT ONLY. THE AFM IS BEING REVISED TO REFLECT THE CHANGES
TO THE LFCPFS AND THE ASSOCIATED TRAINING PROGRAMS.
4. IN ORDER TO SET UP ALL SOLDIERS TO SUCCESSFULLY ACHIEVE THE NEW
STANDARD, A SUPPLEMENTAL STRENGTH TRAINING PROGRAM HAS BEEN
DEVELOPED TO TARGET THE MUSCLE GROUPS INVOLVED WITH THE CASUALTY
DRAG. THIS PHYSICAL FITNESS PROGRAM IS A SUPPLEMENT TO THE AFM AND
IS AVAILABLE ONLINE. QUESTIONS REGARDING THE PHYSICAL FITNESS
PROGRAM SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO LOCAL PSP STAFF.
5. THE LFCPFS WILL CONTINUE TO BE UPDATED AND SCIENTIFICALLY
VALIDATED TO ACCURATELY REFLECT THE PHYSICAL DEMANDS AND SOLDERING
SKILLS OF THE CONTEMPORARY OPERATING ENVIRONMENT.  EFFECTIVE 1 APR
10 AND UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, THE LFCPFS WILL CONSIST OF THE
WEIGHTLOAD MARCH, TRENCH DIG AND CASUALTY DRAG COMPONENTS.  LFCO
24-02 WILL BE AMENDED BY 1 APR 10 TO REFLECT IMPLEMENTATION OF THE
CASUALTY DRAG.
6. QUESTIONS REGARDING THE PHYSICAL FITNESS STANDARD SHOULD BE
DIRECTED TO THE ARMY PHYSICAL FITNESS MANAGER XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
WITHIN DAT PD. QUESTIONS CONCERNING PHYSICAL FITNESS POLICY
SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO THE ARMY XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
SIGNED LGEN A.B. LESLIE, CHIEF OF THE LAND STAFF
END OF ENGLISH TEXT/FRENCH TEXT AS FOLLOWS

edit:  removed contact names from para 6

 

[mariomike]

In all honesty, I think we have to admit that the fireman's carry (which by the way, I don't think firemen do anymore) has caused more injuries than lives it has saved.

The SCBA would get in the way.
The smoke and heat at the level of the patient's head ( which would be about six feet above the floor, and who is not wearing SCBA or bunker gear ) could be fatal.

In the city, you can "Drag and Drop" victims at the sidewalk.
In a war? You may have to carry your friend to help, which may, or may not, be close by.

Your center of balance is thrown off in a Fireman's Carry. About the only time I recall seeing something similar was on ladders. And never alone. Unless the victim was child size and could be carried down in one arm.
With the Fireman's Carry, their arms and legs, especially if flailing around in pain and panic, are likely to block doorways. Better to keep their body in line with yours.
People become hysterical. You don't need that happening around your face. You can avoid that with a short drag.
In municipal service, many of our patients are frightened children and frail little old ladies. In such cases, they can be carried baby style in your arms.
If you don't have control of the patients arms, sometimes they have a tendancy to reach out to grab hold of things / people. ie: You.
I did not see it, as we arrived about ten minutes after the fact. But, a civilian jumped in and carried a much bigger guy over his sholders in a "Fireman's Carry" from the subway tracks up to the platform. The third rail was still live. The subway motorman told us what happened. Said he almost ran over them. No mention of it in the paper. Just one of those things.
I've also seen construction workers carry their friends out.

Photo #3 and #4: "He ain't heavy. He's my brother."
Military carry. I can certainly see the necessity of an over the sholder carry if you had to carry a comrade any distance:
http://history.sandiego.edu/GEN/st/~pkaplan/_doares1rev.jpg

Looks like there is even a sport devoted to over the sholder carrying.
Estonian style!:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_carrying

 

[LineJumper]

Damn, and here I thought the CTOMS y-sling could come in handy for BFT's. I still see the same injury potential either method. Keep the abs strong and should be good to go.

 

[aesop081]

Just pulled on my "TACVEST" a tiny bit now and some of the seams came undone and it's practically brand new (minus one owner) so I doubt it's "defunct".



As for actually carrying a person, now I can understand someone being screwed to have to carry me but for carrying someone else 220? No problem.


Now, look at it this way:



Your in some hot Middle Eastern country and you just dragged your injured buddy with a wound to cover. You pat yourself on the back for your accomplishment and for following your training of "dragging someone" and radio in for a 9-Liner.

"2C this is 2A sorry but we aren't really fighting insurgents anymore this is an actual war. You'll have to casualty carry to safe zone at GR842972 for medical pick up over"

"2A this is 2C(you) what is a casualty carry? over"


The practicality of being able to transport/carry your dying friend to safety is far greater then the need for the ability to pull him 5 meters into some cover which, any stinking monkey can do 70kg.


Let's hope no one has to rely on people to carry them when they are dying and the soldiers are too unfit to carry a person.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92248/post-912483.html#msg912483

You tried to stay in your lane. You failed. Change back to Dean22.........

-300 for you

 

[SeanNewman]

I must be reading that wrong, because I could swear it reads that you cannot fail (?)  Must be a dangling modifier or something.

Anyway, I can see the combat realism in this.  I'm a relatively big guy (6'2", 210) and I find it essentially impossible to get a (playing) dead guy off the ground and onto my shoulders.  To pull it off, you need to have him help you out.  Once they get up there it's fine, but a drag makes a lot more sense because it's much more natural and what I think more people attempt.

You can easily not break the tac vest (soon to be load carriage system) if you grab the entire shoulder strap in each hand, not just the little stitched in part.

 

[Fusaki]

Blah blah blah...

Buddy, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

I honestly thought that with your apology thread you were going to turn a new leaf.  That lasted how long? A week?

You're a lost cause.

 

[medaid]

Dean22,

How do you like that TacVest 1 owner from eBay? I have taught a good number of tactical medical courses for LEOs and fireman's carry was not taught a single time.

Drag so you can still shoot back.

 

[riggermade]

The OPP drag as well....I have built harnesses for them so they can practice...when I did volunteer firefighting in AB you dragged as well

 

[Bzzliteyr]

mariomike.. Of course there are many different techniques and reasons for carrying someone on your shoulders...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_carrying

 

[mariomike]

mariomike.. Of course there are many different techniques and reasons for carrying someone on your shoulders...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_carrying

Oh, I put it in at the bottom of my rather lengthy picture post, Bzzliteyr.  ;D
Looks like fun!
I'm retired now, but I was a BLS guy: Basic Lifting Service. Nothing fancy.
That Estonian Carry is one lift they didn't school us on, and it's too late to learn now! hahaha

 

[danchapps]

I was shown (over 2 years ago, back in basic) the Tacvest drag by my infantry Sgt. Basically what you did was stick your non shooting arm all the way through the tacvest, grab the vest on the far side, and drag away. This left your shooting hand free to return fire if needed. I guess they aren't going that route, just thought I'd throw that in there.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Must be the formatting of the computer (at work).  I was sure that I read over your post twice so I didn't look stupid.  My bad.

 

[mariomike]

Must be the formatting of the computer (at work).  I was sure that I read over your post twice so I didn't look stupid.  My bad.

Not at all. I enjoy reading your posts because I learn from them.

 

[SeanNewman]

I still think overall it's not a bad idea to change to something more realistic that more people would do in more situations.  However, I feel that once again we are shifting the slider to making it easier, though (again).  Realistic or not, the fireman carry was the great equalizer where you could have the weak people who could work up to 13km (and then be NS for a month), but they couldn't pass the fireman carry and you could fail them.  Now, more weak people will pass.

I stick to my guns though that a true fireman carry (dead weight laying on the ground) is almost impossible.  It takes a very strong person doing the technique perfectly, which includes shifting the person around in order to set them up properly, which you don't really have time to do when getting shot at.  It's much faster in short bursts to do the drag.

 

[mariomike]

I have taught a good number of tactical medical courses for LEOs and fireman's carry was not taught a single time.
Drag so you can still shoot back.

Are you an ETF Paramedic?:
http://www.torontoems.ca/main-site/service/etf.html

I see the OPP has them as well  in London, Orillia, Bolton and Kingston.
http://www.opp.ca/ecms/index.php?id=63

I have read that the cities of Edmonton and Calgary now have Tactical Paramedics.

Our Department teaches ITLS to certain members of Metro Police:
http://www.torontoems.ca/main-site/careers/itls.html

 

[Jammer]

Realistic or not, the fireman carry was the great equalizer where you could have the weak people who could work up to 13km (and then be NS for a month), but they couldn't pass the fireman carry and you could fail them.  Now, more weak people will pass.

It sounds to me like you deliberately looked forward to failing people...it's not that "weak " people will pass, but IMHO a relection of casualty extraction that mimics what you would really do. having been in that position more than once i can say that doing a firemans carry in contact is not the desired method of extraction by either the carrier or the victim. Sure there are those who will come off catagory...do the BFT, pass it and go back on catagory. If I had a dime for as many time as I have seen that, I would be retired. Physical weakness does not determine strength of character. I have seen and known many a soul who are in outstanding physical condition who, when the metal met the meat, totally collapsed under the pressure.
There are always those who will sit in judgment of others however...sigh.

 

[SeanNewman]

Haha, yes sorry if the tone of my writing.  In actual fact, when I'm instructing I'm probably too compassionate on mentoring people to pass if anything.

It's not a matter of deliberately targeting the weak in order to weed them out, it's more about that being the only one thing that you can fail people on and punish them for.  I make no claims at being super fit, but I'm reasonably fit and I know I speak for a lot of other people who are disgusted when we see people marching around who know that someone we see could never pass even the most basic of fitness tests, but for some reason nobody has taken action against them.

For us, the Basic Fitness Test is the one thing that we "must" pass in a year.  For troops like Infantry and Engineers it's basically no different than morning PT, but there are some pers who must dedicate several months of their lives to work-up training in order to pass it, and then are so physically destroyed after doing it that they go on light duties for a month because their feet turn into one giant blister.

So, targeting deliberately = no.  Using it as a tool to fail those who deserve it = yes.

 

[medaid]

Are you an ETF Paramedic?:

Nope!

I have read that since then, the cities of Edmonton and Calgary now have Tactical Paramedics.

Not out here in BC.... the Tactical Medics on the teams are just memebers who've been cross trained... I've got mix feelings about that.

the only one thing that you can fail people on and punish them for.

Ah... I love your "MENTORING" mind set. Punish them? Please....

Using it as a tool to fail those who deserve it = yes.

:

 

[mariomike]

Not out here in BC.... the Tactical Medics on the teams are just memebers who've been cross trained... I've got mix feelings about that.

I put in for the Toronto team, but failed the fitness test.  :-[