- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 430
Colin P said:
Isn't that the truth...We have a by-election in my riding next week....I fully expect a resounding NDP spanking both here and in Fort Mac....
Cheers
Larry
Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
- Thread starter Altair
- Start date
Isn't that the truth...We have a by-election in my riding next week....I fully expect a resounding NDP spanking both here and in Fort Mac....
Cheers
Larry
- Reaction score
- 999
- Points
- 1,160
Canada is really in trouble economically. Kinder Morgan probably saw this coming and suckered the Liberals.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tasker-trans-mountain-federal-court-appeals-1.4804495
Federal Court of Appeal quashes construction approvals for Trans Mountain, leaving project in limbo - 30 Aug 18
Indigenous groups had opposed $7.4B project
In a stunning blow, the Federal Court of Appeal has quashed the government's approvals to build the Trans Mountain expansion project — a major victory for Indigenous groups and environmentalists opposed to the $7.4-billion project. In the decision released Thursday, and written by Justice Eleanor Dawson, the court found the National Energy Board's assessment of the project was so flawed that it should not have been relied on by the federal cabinet when it gave final approval to proceed in November 2016.
The certificate approving construction and operation of the project has been nullified, leaving the project in legal limbo until the energy regulator and the government reassess their approvals to satisfy the court's demands. In effect, the court has halted construction of the 1,150-kilometre project indefinitely.
Amid uncertainty, Kinder Morgan agreed to sell the existing pipeline and the expansion project to the federal government this spring. The company's shareholders approved the sale Thursday morning in Calgary in a previously scheduled vote held just after the court's decision was released.
Now, the Liberal government is the owner of a proposed pipeline project that could be subject to years of further review.
Finance Minister Bill Morneau said in a tweet that the federal government is reviewing the decision. He is expected to speak to reporters in Toronto on Thursday afternoon.
In its initial study of the project, the NEB found that the pipeline would not cause significant adverse environmental impacts. But the court has determined that conclusion is bogus because it did not assess the impacts of marine shipping — increased tanker traffic that would result from the expanded pipeline — on the environment and southern resident killer whales in the waters around the line's shipping terminal.
The appellate court also found that the federal government did not adequately, or meaningfully, consult with Indigenous people and hear out their concerns after the NEB issued its report recommending that cabinet approve the project. The court has ordered the federal government redo its Phase 3 consultation "Only after that consultation is completed and any accommodation made can the project be put before the Governor in Council (cabinet) for approval," the decision reads. "The duty to consult was not adequately discharged in this case."
Thus, the court is ordering cabinet to direct the NEB to reconsider its approval of the project and remedy some of the concerns raised by the court before cabinet can give the final go-ahead for construction.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tasker-trans-mountain-federal-court-appeals-1.4804495
Federal Court of Appeal quashes construction approvals for Trans Mountain, leaving project in limbo - 30 Aug 18
Indigenous groups had opposed $7.4B project
In a stunning blow, the Federal Court of Appeal has quashed the government's approvals to build the Trans Mountain expansion project — a major victory for Indigenous groups and environmentalists opposed to the $7.4-billion project. In the decision released Thursday, and written by Justice Eleanor Dawson, the court found the National Energy Board's assessment of the project was so flawed that it should not have been relied on by the federal cabinet when it gave final approval to proceed in November 2016.
The certificate approving construction and operation of the project has been nullified, leaving the project in legal limbo until the energy regulator and the government reassess their approvals to satisfy the court's demands. In effect, the court has halted construction of the 1,150-kilometre project indefinitely.
Amid uncertainty, Kinder Morgan agreed to sell the existing pipeline and the expansion project to the federal government this spring. The company's shareholders approved the sale Thursday morning in Calgary in a previously scheduled vote held just after the court's decision was released.
Now, the Liberal government is the owner of a proposed pipeline project that could be subject to years of further review.
Finance Minister Bill Morneau said in a tweet that the federal government is reviewing the decision. He is expected to speak to reporters in Toronto on Thursday afternoon.
In its initial study of the project, the NEB found that the pipeline would not cause significant adverse environmental impacts. But the court has determined that conclusion is bogus because it did not assess the impacts of marine shipping — increased tanker traffic that would result from the expanded pipeline — on the environment and southern resident killer whales in the waters around the line's shipping terminal.
The appellate court also found that the federal government did not adequately, or meaningfully, consult with Indigenous people and hear out their concerns after the NEB issued its report recommending that cabinet approve the project. The court has ordered the federal government redo its Phase 3 consultation "Only after that consultation is completed and any accommodation made can the project be put before the Governor in Council (cabinet) for approval," the decision reads. "The duty to consult was not adequately discharged in this case."
Thus, the court is ordering cabinet to direct the NEB to reconsider its approval of the project and remedy some of the concerns raised by the court before cabinet can give the final go-ahead for construction.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 430
Excellent news. This guarantees the NDP wipe out in 274 days
Cheers
Larry
Cheers
Larry
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 9,170
- Points
- 1,160
They will go out and consult specifically on the issues the court mentioned, the FN are obligated to respond in a meaningful manner and will be annoyed at the limited scope of the new consultation.
My office had this pipeline at first and then it was taken away from us and given in whole to NEB to review, thank god for that.
My office had this pipeline at first and then it was taken away from us and given in whole to NEB to review, thank god for that.
QV
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 2,477
- Points
- 1,010
Kinder Morgan most certainly anticipated this and acted swiftly right after the ruling.
"Kinder Morgan shareholders approve the sale of the project to Ottawa with 99% support less than an hour after the ruling "
https://business.financialpost.com/commodities/energy/trans-mountain-pipeline-approval-quashed-by-court
I think we are in big trouble economically with all that is going on.
"Kinder Morgan shareholders approve the sale of the project to Ottawa with 99% support less than an hour after the ruling "
https://business.financialpost.com/commodities/energy/trans-mountain-pipeline-approval-quashed-by-court
I think we are in big trouble economically with all that is going on.
- Reaction score
- 839
- Points
- 1,060
Duty to consult, summary:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_consult_and_accommodate
Seems pretty extensive, and highly unlikely the government can meet its obligations on any natural resource project if there is a speck of discontent from FN.
Also note the little note where some treaty obligations made a century ago are verbal, but still enforceable (unlike verbal promises to veterans that were made a century ago).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_consult_and_accommodate
Seems pretty extensive, and highly unlikely the government can meet its obligations on any natural resource project if there is a speck of discontent from FN.
Also note the little note where some treaty obligations made a century ago are verbal, but still enforceable (unlike verbal promises to veterans that were made a century ago).
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 9,170
- Points
- 1,160
whiskey601 said:
We go through this exercise almost daily, consultation is a two way street, the FN's also have a duty to meaningfully engage. To be successful, you need to consult fairly and go through the process, crossing T and dotting i's. Problem arise when you attempt to hurry or limit the process. I have never been a fan of the NEB process as it is to "court like" and creates a almost adversarial approach in my opinion. FN's do not have a veto and failure to show up at consultation meetings will not stop a project review.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 430
KJK said:
Well....I for 1 am.
I seriously think anyone who believed that the mythical "Social Licence" was going to appear is living in Wolkenkuckucksheim........
Cheers
Larry
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 26,358
- Points
- 1,160
Colin P said:
Exactly. Which means you need to keep good records of the way your consultation process played out, and I assume that they didn't do that in a way that would satisfy a judge.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 9,170
- Points
- 1,160
From a quick read, it seems they met the test laid out in previous court cases, but this one has moved the bar higher. I am meeting with some very strong minded bands for consultations on 2 different projects over the next couple of days. Should prove interesting to see if they bring this issue up or not. Mind you in this case other issues are at play and their hand is a bit weak. The Musqueam band will no doubt bring this up in all consultations.
Oldgateboatdriver
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 1,436
- Points
- 1,010
In the Kinder-Morgan case, the Southern Resident Killer Whales issue should be interesting.
There is, of course, something that can be done to help the population and reduce the threat to their existence - but it can only be done jointly with the US - and for either country, it would be first in the commercial shipping world: Underwater noise emission standards fully enforced.
Shipping in general doesn't cause much hazard to whales and dolphins (Unless it's to hunt them. Wink! Wink! Japanese researchers) and actual collisions are fairly rare events. However, the stress put on the animals from the radiated noise in the water has been reasonably well documented from a scientific point of view. Now, warships are silenced as a matter of fact for ASW purposes and so, various technologies to reduce noise exist. Merchant ships on the other hand spend no money whatsoever on the issue, and some of them are so noisy, you pick them up half an ocean away on sonars. If the two governments want to be serious about the whales, they could (and in my view - should) come up with maximum radiated noise levels for merchant ships and enforce them in Juan de Fuca strait, Pugget Sound area and all of the inner passage in BC coastal waters.
Double-hulled tankers requirements were imposed on merchant shipping as mean to reduce oil pollution, why shouldn't Canada and the US be the first to push noise pollution control measures on such shipping? Imagine if our young PM managed to convince the US to go along with something like that! Trudeau and the liberals would become insufferable, but IMHO it would be worth living through that.
Now THAT would seriously help the SRKW.
There is, of course, something that can be done to help the population and reduce the threat to their existence - but it can only be done jointly with the US - and for either country, it would be first in the commercial shipping world: Underwater noise emission standards fully enforced.
Shipping in general doesn't cause much hazard to whales and dolphins (Unless it's to hunt them. Wink! Wink! Japanese researchers) and actual collisions are fairly rare events. However, the stress put on the animals from the radiated noise in the water has been reasonably well documented from a scientific point of view. Now, warships are silenced as a matter of fact for ASW purposes and so, various technologies to reduce noise exist. Merchant ships on the other hand spend no money whatsoever on the issue, and some of them are so noisy, you pick them up half an ocean away on sonars. If the two governments want to be serious about the whales, they could (and in my view - should) come up with maximum radiated noise levels for merchant ships and enforce them in Juan de Fuca strait, Pugget Sound area and all of the inner passage in BC coastal waters.
Double-hulled tankers requirements were imposed on merchant shipping as mean to reduce oil pollution, why shouldn't Canada and the US be the first to push noise pollution control measures on such shipping? Imagine if our young PM managed to convince the US to go along with something like that! Trudeau and the liberals would become insufferable, but IMHO it would be worth living through that.
Now THAT would seriously help the SRKW.
Brad Sallows
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 6,904
- Points
- 1,040
They'll have to do something about noise. If the estimated additional tanker traffic will doom the orcas, then the relevant bands might as well have a series of ceremonial hunts and kill them all now, because estimated future non-tanker traffic increases (ie. ships transiting per day) vastly exceed that of tankers.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 26,358
- Points
- 1,160
Brad Sallows said:
It seems that 'they' already are, and it seems to be working.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/resident-killer-whales-boat-noise-study-1.4469372
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 9,170
- Points
- 1,160
The best that can be done presently is to modify speeds locally. Sadly people think slow is better, it may not be. Every ship that comes into BC regularly, should have a sound signature profile done, at several different speeds. That ship could then be issued a directive to maintain those speeds in certain portions of water as the best speeds to be safe and reduce noise. Enforcement could be done by AIS, which would alert when they have a speed greater than X when in area Y. Canada, Europe and the US can push for vessels to have a sound signature done and that would be provided with other documentation upon approaching the coast.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 180
Trudeau should directly refer the matter to the Supreme Court. For the Federal Court of Appeal to assume lack of consultation with Indians is odd considering 43 bands are in agreement. The Supreme Court has previously said that natives must be consulted but they don't have a veto.
The whole whale thing is peculiar in that it wasn't even an area of consideration under the enabling legislation. That is not to say that the issue was ignored. The government is spending $1.5 billion studying whales. The judgement of the appeal court was particularly bad and should be corrected.
The whole whale thing is peculiar in that it wasn't even an area of consideration under the enabling legislation. That is not to say that the issue was ignored. The government is spending $1.5 billion studying whales. The judgement of the appeal court was particularly bad and should be corrected.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 9,170
- Points
- 1,160
So the two elements of the decision I can see are scope and the level of responsiveness. If the Scope is adjusted to include shipping to Race rocks to and from the terminal. Then the real issues will be cumulative effects of roughly 360 ships (720 transits) vs roughly 3000 existing ships (6000 transits) and the accident and malfunction issues.
As for increasing the engagement with FN`s further, that can be done and the feds could meet the test, yet leave the aggrieved parties unsatisfied. The review also shot down several arguments by the opposing parties, so basically ruling out the ability to challenge the project on those points.
So the Feds need to open a review to consider shipping, look at the existing records for issues that were not entirely satisfied or responded to. Using that as a guide, redo the consultation piece, respond in a wholesome manner to the issues raised, provide capacity funding so they can respond. There are other reviews that cover shipping already and there is the Oceans Protection Plan that can have further elements hung onto it`s framework to deal with the issues.
As for increasing the engagement with FN`s further, that can be done and the feds could meet the test, yet leave the aggrieved parties unsatisfied. The review also shot down several arguments by the opposing parties, so basically ruling out the ability to challenge the project on those points.
So the Feds need to open a review to consider shipping, look at the existing records for issues that were not entirely satisfied or responded to. Using that as a guide, redo the consultation piece, respond in a wholesome manner to the issues raised, provide capacity funding so they can respond. There are other reviews that cover shipping already and there is the Oceans Protection Plan that can have further elements hung onto it`s framework to deal with the issues.
Similar threads
- Article
