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Dion's opinions/garble.

TCBF said:
- They are getting even with us for pulling out of the north German plain in 1970, cutting our Brigade in half, moving it to Lahr/Baden and de-nuking our Starfighters.  Nothing personal.

As I've said before, it isn't the same and hardly explains French, Italian, Spanish and other attitudes.  The cuts in the seventies - like them or not - were based on a strategic assessment made during peacetime.  This was the era of Vietnam, the opening of China and reproachment with the Soviet Union, including the SALT talks and the rest.  Add an anti-defence government and you end up with cuts to a garrison in a foreign country that (in its opinion) faced no military threat.

In Afghanistan, NATO is engaged in combat operations - a shooting war - against an enemy that the entire Alliance agreed had to be destroyed.  Any suggestion that the European lack of willingness to step up is based on Canada's cuts to our small contribution to German defence 35 years ago is more than a bit of a stretch.

sgf:  what is the Liberal policy on Afghanistan?  I haven't been able to discern one...
 
sgf, to put many of our views on your arguments into perspective, this is a good example of why you have very little credibility...even with your own position, let alone us at least appreciating a reasoned argument:


sgf said:
well maybe he will change his position on this, who really knows. He hasnt changed his positon on the liberal policy for afghanistan. I am not blinded to politicans from every party making promises that are quickly broken once in power or playing to the voters. There will be a lot of wild statements from politicans in the months running up to the next election.  I do wish there was another leader of the libs, i do agree that Dions communication skills leave a lot to be desired, but I could say that of Harper as well.

...followed by...

sgf said:
well since you asked.. no.. its not the same policy.. but we all know only too well how often politicans change their mind.. for example harper on that atlantic accord, income trust, and putting unelected members into cabinet. all politicans do it and having said that there is a liberal policy on afganistan, and i think its a good plan

Those of us who have stated our view, honestly haven't changed our view...unlike Mr. Dion.

G2G
 
Teddy Ruxpin:

what is the Liberal policy on Afghanistan?

Simple: By 2009 (if not already) the CF will have sustained sufficient fatalities to demand that they stop operating in a dangerous fashion.  That's all there is to it.

Mark
Ottawa

 
Federal Liberals formally outlined their position on Afghanistan Tuesday, arguing the combat mission should end as scheduled in February, 2009, but suggesting troops could remain in the country to perform other tasks.

The eight-page written document, a formal submission to a government-appointed panel on Canada's future role in Afghanistan headed by former Liberal politician John Manley, could serve as the official Opposition blueprint on a key campaign issue in a potential federal election this year.

While it was a Liberal government that first sent the troops to Kandahar in August, 2005, the submission said it was "never intended to be a life-long effort or even a 10-year commitment." Since he was chosen Liberal leader 14 months ago, Stéphane Dion has unsuccessfully pressed Prime Minister Stephen Harper to give formal notice to the NATO alliance that the Canadian mission will not be extended past February, 2009 -- already a two-year extension that was approved by Parliament in 2006.

The Liberals say Canada's "enormous sacrifice" in Afghanistan must be brought to a close by ending the combat mission in Kandahar, reducing troop deployments and shifting them to training, civilian protection and reconstruction in safer zones.

Expressing suspicion about the minority Conservative government's plans, the Liberals said it would be "a travesty" to simply rename the combat mission a training mission and carry on with the perilous counter-insurgency work in which 76 Canadian military personnel and one diplomat have died since 2002.

His party's submission emphasized the importance of serving formal notice to NATO, which controls the multinational security assistance force in Afghanistan, that Canada's combat role will end as scheduled.

"As long as other NATO countries believe that our commitment to continue the counter-insurgency combat role in Kandahar is open-ended, they will never prepare for our departure," it said.

No matter what mission is agreed on, the Liberals called for an immediate effort to strengthen co-ordination among Canadian government departments and agencies on the Afghanistan file, alleging "an almost complete breakdown" in the ability of Defence, Foreign Affairs and CIDA -- the international development agency -- to work together towards a coherent vision.

"We are open to other possible military roles in Afghanistan to continue training the Afghan National Army and police, protect Afghan civilians or for reconstruction efforts," Mr. Dion said in a prepared statement.

"But we will not accept the simple re-branding of the current combat mission as a training mission. Any new military role must be crafted in such a way as to ensure that other significant Canadian Forces deployments in other parts of the world are possible."

The Manley panel is expected to submit its report to the government later this
 
sgf, could you provide a reference of the full submission, please?  Thank you.

G2G

 
Did they publish their submission to the Panel?
 
Here's the Liberal's news release:
http://www.liberal.ca/story_13465_e.aspx

Full submission here:
http://www.liberal.ca/pdf/docs/080108_afghanistan_en.pdf

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
Here's the Liberal's news release:
http://www.liberal.ca/story_13465_e.aspx

Full submission here:
http://www.liberal.ca/pdf/docs/080108_afghanistan_en.pdf

Mark
Ottawa

Thanks, Mark.

Cheers
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
As I've said before, it isn't the same and hardly explains French, Italian, Spanish and other attitudes.  The cuts in the seventies - like them or not - were based on a strategic assessment made during peacetime.  This was the era of Vietnam, the opening of China and reproachment with the Soviet Union, including the SALT talks and the rest.  Add an anti-defence government and you end up with cuts to a garrison in a foreign country that (in its opinion) faced no military threat.

In Afghanistan, NATO is engaged in combat operations - a shooting war - against an enemy that the entire Alliance agreed had to be destroyed.  Any suggestion that the European lack of willingness to step up is based on Canada's cuts to our small contribution to German defence 35 years ago is more than a bit of a stretch.

sgf:  what is the Liberal policy on Afghanistan?  I haven't been able to discern one...

Teddy, as you noted NATO is at war, but equally, as someone on this site so astutely noted, the respective citizens of our NATO allies, like their Canadian counterparts are at IKEA or the Pub.

The reason for European trepidation is political/societal, we in Canada are not nearly as far down the road to progressive utopia and political correctness (socially induced fear) with regard to the extremists in our midst as is most of Europe.  There aren't riots in the streets and have been no terrorist attacks here unlike France and Spain.  Meanwhile in Italy the political climate is such that if a politician blows his nose in the wrong way the government falls.

The Liberal policy on Afghanistan is the same policy the Liberals have on everything...  Search for the mushy middle, win a propoganda war in and with the help of the Liberal media and chase the frightened voters to an eventual victory.
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
As I've said before, it isn't the same and hardly explains French, Italian, Spanish and other attitudes.  The cuts in the seventies - like them or not - were based on a strategic assessment made during peacetime.  This was the era of Vietnam, the opening of China and reproachment with the Soviet Union, including the SALT talks and the rest.  Add an anti-defence government and you end up with cuts to a garrison in a foreign country that (in its opinion) faced no military threat.

- Notwithstanding the events of the day, our "strategic" assessment was based more on P.E.T.'s political predjudices than on reality.  The rest of NATO was not impressed with us thinning out while NATO's big stick - the USA - was tied down in an Asian war it was unwilling to win.

Teddy Ruxpin said:
In Afghanistan, NATO is engaged in combat operations - a shooting war - against an enemy that the entire Alliance agreed had to be destroyed.  Any suggestion that the European lack of willingness to step up is based on Canada's cuts to our small contribution to German defence 35 years ago is more than a bit of a stretch....

- My statement to that effect was made by my sardonic evil twin, for whom I appologize. As for NATO's commitment, agreeing that an enemy has to be destroyed is one thing.  Agreeing on who gets to "bell the cat" is another.
 
As I suspected, the Liberal "eight-page" policy is hardly that.  One page is the cover page, a further two are devoted to an attack on the government and on Parliamentary tactics and the remainder has so little meat that it can hardly be described as a policy.  It appears that the Liberals would waffle, whine and manoeuvre our way into a "safer" role, when we know - categorically - that there is no such thing.  Further:

  • It fails to recognize that training the ANA is the current mission's centre of gravity and that any such training efforts are, by there very nature "combat" operations
  • It talks about engaging other NATO allies, but fails to recognize the dismal failure of the Europeans to assume anything but the "hide in the North" strategy they've followed thus far.  Can Dion name the other countries that might be willing to replace us?
  • It talks about limiting tactical decisions to use indirect fire and close air support, a frightening prospect to any serving soldier.  These are decisions entitled to be made by commanders on the ground with full situational awareness.

Aside from blather about detainees, veiled attacks on the current government and some mumbling about "rotation", there's nothing in the way of policy here - aside from ending the "combat" mission.  What Dion and the Liberals obviously fail to recognize is that every military action - even "protecting civilians" and "training the Afghan Army" - are "combat" actions.  Our troops will be targets for the Taliban and AQ if they're repairing a dam or conducting a reconnaissance patrol.  It is shocking to me that, after six years in the country, we still have political leaders that fail to realize this.

As for the Europeans, I've said my piece before; I've nothing but distain for them - based on much too much direct operational experience.

 
Good2Golf said:
sgf, could you provide a reference of the full submission, please?  Thank you.

G2G

sgf, well...I read it.  I'm not overly impressed.

I have argued why we should stay until at least January 2011 in this thread.  I don't feel the LPC has done the same regarding 2009, IMO.

Regards
G2G

 
- There is a great misunderstanding here regarding the liberal "No Combat for Canada" policy.  OF COURSE they know that we will be attacked, killed, wounded and captured doing 'nation building' stuff.  They have always known that.  We must remember, however, that their definition of combat requires us to shoot back.  As long as we are 'victims' we are peacekeepers.  Once we start shooting back or disrupting future enemy operations through direct action (seizing the initiative, in other words), we cease to be peacekeepers in their minds and become just another colonialist reactionary army.

- They have no problem with us dying, they just don't want us killing. 

- So: we should prepare for a MASSIVE spike in Canadian casualties after the Liberals become the next government.
 
  • Teddy Ruxpin said:
    • It talks about limiting tactical decisions to use indirect fire and close air support, a frightening prospect to any serving soldier.  These are decisions entitled to be made by commanders on the ground with full situational awareness.

    Yet mere paragraphs away state:Too often when countries do commit troops to the mission, the utility
    of the commitment is nullified by the unrealistic caveats the nation places on its involvement.

    Imagine that.Liberals putting down other NATO members for its caveats,then saying they would instill their own.

    That whole paper offer NOT ONE solution to anything.
 
whats the conservatives official policy on afghanistan?
 
sgf said:
whats the conservatives official policy on afghanistan?

Why not look it up?  You got everyone else to read the Liberal stuff - why don't you read the government policy?
 
TCBF said:
Why not look it up?  You got everyone else to read the Liberal stuff - why don't you read the government policy?

right! i got everyone to read the liberal stuff, give me a break. No one is forcing anyone to read anything here. I did look it up. I cant find it.
 
I can't believe I have to do everything myself around here....  ;)

..."Nowhere is Canada making a difference more clearly than in Afghanistan. Canada has joined the United Nations-sanctioned mission in Afghanistan because it is noble and necessary. Canadians understand that development and security go hand in hand. Without security, there can be no humanitarian aid, no reconstruction and no democratic development. Progress will be slow, but our efforts are bearing fruit. There is no better measure of this progress than the four million Afghan boys and two million girls who can dream of a better future because they now go to school.

The Canadian Forces mission has been approved by Parliament until February 2009, and our Government has made clear to Canadians and our allies that any future military deployments must also be supported by a majority of parliamentarians. In the coming session, members will be asked to vote on the future of the Canadian mission in Afghanistan. This decision should honour the dedication and sacrifice of Canada’s development workers, diplomats and men and women in uniform. It should ensure that progress in Afghanistan is not lost and that our international commitments and reputation are upheld.

Our Government does not believe that Canada should simply abandon the people of Afghanistan after February 2009. Canada should build on its accomplishments and shift to accelerate the training of the Afghan army and police so that the Afghan government can defend its own sovereignty. This will not be completed by February 2009, but our Government believes this objective should be achievable by 2011, the end of the period covered by the Afghanistan Compact. Our Government has appointed an independent panel to advise Canadians on how best to proceed given these considerations...."

http://www.sft-ddt.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?id=1368

and here

http://www.conservative.ca/EN/2888

Enjoy!




 
TCBF said:
I can't believe I have to do everything myself around here....   ;)
...

Awesome on you TCBF for helping him out ...

I was doubting that he had it bookmarked into his favourites.
 
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