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Dion's opinions/garble.

stegner said:
Total withdrawal would mean that Canadian Forces would be pulled out completely from Afghanistan.  Dion has not said that-note his meeting today with Karzai.  Have a look at the Constitution Act, 1867 and the National Defence Act, CF deployments do not require the consent of Parliament, they require the consent of the Governor-in-Council, MND and CDS, so your points 1 and 2 are immaterial.
They are not immaterial they ARE THE F****N POLICY!!!!  Do you not grasp that the policy is to get the agreement of Parliament rather than only the minimum required by the Constitution?!?!?!?!?  You ignore the policy and then try to argue that it doesn't exist: we aren't that stupid.  And since you're an expert on the subject please show me where the Constitution or the NDA show that the consent of the CDS is required (let alone the MND, other than as any other member of the Cabinet).

Again, I do not know why you don't want more qualified people on the committee I take that very seriously, because lives are at stake.  Exactly my point on Lew he should have been on the committee not Wallin.
Mackenzie thinks Dion's changing policies are asinine: how is that your point?

In the event of Dion's policies being blind populism, democracy is driven by populism.  Last time I checked Canada was a democracy.
Canada is not a democracy: it is a representative democracy (on the subject of Liberal leaders, maybe you should check into Trudeau some time).  While governing according to the polls is a well-established Liberal tactic, it isn't policy (let alone leadership): it is the absence of policy.

 
::)

I see we are engaging some people, in political debate, who really don't have two clues about Current Events, let alone Politics.  They don't have a grasp on Government Stucture and how Government Policies are made and enforced.  If this keeps up, this topic will be moved to Radio Chatter.


George
Milnet.ca Staff
 
As I have recently learned on my latest OPME (CF and modern society), Canada is a liberal democracy.  This does NOT mean that a party with the name "Liberal" in it must run the country.  What it does mean is this:
It is a representative democracy (exactly as John Galt said) in which the ability of the elected representatives to exercise decision-making power is subject to the rule of law, and moderated by a constitution that emphasizes the protection of the rights and freedoms of individuals, and which places constraints on the leaders and on the extent to which the will of the majority can be exercised against the rights of minorities. A liberal democracy has elections, a multiplicity of political parties, political decisions made through an independent legislature, and an independent judiciary, with a state monopoly on law enforcement.

Just putting this out there to explain our system.

 
Sounds good.  John Galt, you Ayn Rand aficionado,  I will agree to disagree with you.  I am not denying that Harper has a policy on Afghanistan. I am merely stating that it is not neccessarily as good as it could be. I think it could be better that is all I was trying to say.  I think it could have been made much better if the Prime Minister had appointed more knowledgeable people to decide such a complex and important issue, rather than .  Let's leave it at that. With respect to the CDS, Governor-in-Council and MND I would suggest reading Douglas Bland's National Defence Headquaters: Centre for Decision as it is much shorter than the National Defence Act :) You can order it here:  http://www.fedpubs.com/subject/govern/natdefhq.htm This article is also interesting http://wps.cfc.forces.gc.ca/papers/nssc/nssc4/wingert.htm
 
I've been out of the country, so am late wading into this one.  Imagine my shock at arriving home last night to find that Dion has jumped on the "visit Afghanistan" bandwagon - a bit late - yet continues to spout the same ridiculous nonsense regarding the mission in theatre that he's engaged in since assuming the "leadership".  Not a surprise, really, as his defence critic did much the same when visiting theatre a couple of months ago.  Dion's issue is that Kandahar is a problem of his party's own making, one that goes against the peacenik bent of the Liberal left-wing.  He needs to pander to the idiots who insist that Afghanistan is "Bush's War" and, concurrently, pay lip service to NATO and to the sacrifice we've paid in Afghanistan thus far.

So, what to do?  Here's the apparent Dion answer:  suggest a bunch of nonsense that would give the appearance of "changing" the mission and of giving it a more warm and fuzzy tint.  Thus the Liberals have concocted alternative "roles" that are nothing of the sort:

"Protect civilians" = combat
"Contribute to security" = combat
"Train Afghan security forces" = combat
"Contribute to reconstruction" = potential combat
"Further female education" = potential combat

There seems to be this idea that Western forces can somehow operate in (southern) Afghanistan and, by some miracle, be shielded from suicide bombings, rocket attacks and Taliban opposition.  If Mr. Dion is such an expert, as some posting here have insisted he is, surely he realizes that any military operations in theatre, no matter how much we cloak them in politically-correct niceties, are combat operations.  The Taliban and Al Qaida hate the West, liberal democracy, and all that we stand for and no amount of "traditional peacekeeping" is going to change that.

The current Liberal policy is delusional.  Either we're in, or we're not.  Adopting a half-way policy is to abandon the Afghan Government and abandon our traditional ABCA allies and to assume the laughably cowardly policies of Spain, Germany, Italy and the rest of the European "contributors".  If this is the way ahead, Canada stands to lose enormous credibility on the world stage - just as we've gained some - and to lose any claim on influencing policy in the region.

Sickening, really.
 
perhaps parliment can have a civilized up front discussion on Canadas role in Afghanistan. Discuss why our Nato allies are so relucant to sent their military into the south, to help in the fight. To discuss why the warlords and drug barons are still running the country,why any prisoners that Canada turns over are being tortured. Whats wrong with debating, what other roles Canada can play or can we in all good faith walk away and leave the mess to others to clean up? These are things I would like to see discussed, in a long up front civilized  debate,that lasts a bit longer than the last one did.
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
So, what to do?  Here's the apparent Dion answer:  suggest a bunch of nonsense that would give the appearance of "changing" the mission and of giving it a more warm and fuzzy tint.  Thus the Liberals have concocted alternative "roles" that are nothing of the sort:

"Protect civilians" = combat
"Contribute to security" = combat
"Train Afghan security forces" = combat
"Contribute to reconstruction" = potential combat
"Further female education" = potential combat

There seems to be this idea that Western forces can somehow operate in (southern) Afghanistan and, by some miracle, be shielded from suicide bombings, rocket attacks and Taliban opposition.  If Mr. Dion is such an expert, as some posting here have insisted he is, surely he realizes that any military operations in theatre, no matter how much we cloak them in politically-correct niceties, are combat operations.  The Taliban and Al Qaida hate the West, liberal democracy, and all that we stand for and no amount of "traditional peacekeeping" is going to change that.

The current Liberal policy is delusional.  Either we're in, or we're not.  Adopting a half-way policy is to abandon the Afghan Government and abandon our traditional ABCA allies and to assume the laughably cowardly policies of Spain, Germany, Italy and the rest of the European "contributors".  If this is the way ahead, Canada stands to lose enormous credibility on the world stage - just as we've gained some - and to lose any claim on influencing policy in the region.

Sickening, really.

Actually, I don't think they are delusional at all (except wrt how other countries see us): I suspect Dion has had to backtrack a little and throw a few bones to the "old guard" (as it were) to keep from being overthrown ... straight out of the playbook that served them so well from Trudeau - Chretien: say *anything* to get elected, and figure it out later (even if it is the complete opposite of the Party's electoral platform).  Sadly, a large segment of the Canadian public keeps falling for the same tricks that the Liberals are only too willing to play.



stegner said:
Sounds good.  John Galt, you Ayn Rand aficionado,  I will agree to disagree with you.  I am not denying that Harper has a policy on Afghanistan. I am merely stating that it is not neccessarily as good as it could be. I think it could be better that is all I was trying to say.  I think it could have been made much better if the Prime Minister had appointed more knowledgeable people to decide such a complex and important issue, rather than .  Let's leave it at that. With respect to the CDS, Governor-in-Council and MND I would suggest reading Douglas Bland's National Defence Headquaters: Centre for Decision as it is much shorter than the National Defence Act :) You can order it here:  http://www.fedpubs.com/subject/govern/natdefhq.htm This article is also interesting http://wps.cfc.forces.gc.ca/papers/nssc/nssc4/wingert.htm

As it goes against my better judgement to continue to engage in this exchange (not to mention GW's), I will leave you with a little bit of reading to show you how completely off-base you are:

Legal and Procedural Requirements(1)

As a matter of Canadian constitutional law, the situation is clear.  The federal Cabinet can, without parliamentary approval or consultation, commit Canadian Forces to action abroad, whether in the form of a specific current operation or future contingencies resulting from international treaty obligations.

Under the Canadian Constitution (Constitution Act, 1867, sections 15 and 19), command of the armed forces – like other traditional executive powers – is vested in the Queen and exercised in her name by the federal Cabinet acting under the leadership of the Prime Minister.  As far as the Constitution is concerned, Parliament has little direct role in such matters.

Of course, Parliament, especially the House of Commons, plays an indispensable though indirect role by voting or withholding funds and by retaining or withdrawing confidence in the government of the day.  Moreover, short of an actual vote, there are other mechanisms that enable parliamentarians to hold the government accountable for its decisions and to register their own views.  These include questions to ministers, debates on the Estimates, and take‑note debates.(2)(3)

Although Parliament has a specific statutory role in some national emergencies under the Emergencies Act and with respect to the active status of the Canadian Forces under the National Defence Act, Cabinet is required to seek parliamentary approval only in the event of conscription or specific states of emergency.  Without consulting Parliament, Cabinet can deploy troops by an order in council.(4)  Section 32 of the National Defence Act only “requires that Parliament (unless it is dissolved at the time) be sitting whenever any element of the Canadian Forces is placed on ‘active service’ by the Governor in Council, or within ten days thereafter.(5)  Although the Act does not specifically give Parliament any say in the matter,(6) the requirement may reinforce Cabinet’s accountability to Parliament at such times by ensuring that parliamentarians are on hand to question and challenge the government.”(7)

The effectiveness of section 32 in this regard can be limited, however, when Cabinet simply issues “blanket” active service orders.  For example, the Canadian Forces have been on active service continuously since 1950 in furtherance of Canada’s NATO commitments. Nonetheless, Cabinet has adopted the practice of issuing specific active service orders for major UN deployments.(8 )

Of course, Cabinet is accountable to Parliament and ultimately to the electorate for its decisions.  But given the potentially far-reaching and irrevocable nature of those decisions, it seems reasonable to consider whether the generally ex post facto scrutiny of executive policy in this area is sufficient.  After all, legislatures of other countries (for example, the United States and Denmark) appear to have a greater role in foreign policy decision-making than does the Parliament of Canada.  Moreover, past Canadian practice also seems to have allowed for more regular involvement of Parliament in foreign policy matters.
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/prb0006-e.html There is no question as to where the authority lies: you might not agree as to how it should be, but that doesn't change the facts of what IS.


P.S> I suspect you'd be surprised by the number of people around here who have read the NDA in it's entirety and the Constitution Acts (all three really aren't that long) AND a significant number of the QR&Os, CFAOs and DAODs, for that matter (hint: only the Constitution covers who can deploy the CF).
 
sgf said:
perhaps parliment can have a civilized up front discussion on Canadas role in Afghanistan. Discuss why our Nato allies are so relucant to sent their military into the south, to help in the fight. To discuss why the warlords and drug barons are still running the country,why any prisoners that Canada turns over are being tortured. Whats wrong with debating, what other roles Canada can play or can we in all good faith walk away and leave the mess to others to clean up? These are things I would like to see discussed, in a long up front civilized  debate,that lasts a bit longer than the last one did.

April 10, 2006 called ... it was wondering where you were: http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?pub=Journals&doc=6&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=39&Ses=1&DocId=2160384&File=0#SOB-1501305
 
sgf said:
perhaps parliment can have a civilized up front discussion on Canadas role in Afghanistan. Discuss why our Nato allies are so relucant to sent their military into the south, to help in the fight. To discuss why the warlords and drug barons are still running the country,why any prisoners that Canada turns over are being tortured. Whats wrong with debating, what other roles Canada can play or can we in all good faith walk away and leave the mess to others to clean up? These are things I would like to see discussed, in a long up front civilized  debate,that lasts a bit longer than the last one did.

Are you really for real?  Parliament has held these discusions, but has already been stated, it is the job of the "Government" (ie. the Conservatives) to make the decisions.  Cabinet does that, and they have made the decisions.

I question any logic on discussing why our NATO allies are reluctant to send their troops anywhere, in the House.  Those are discusions that should be discussed by our representatives at NATO in a sitting of NATO heads.

A discusion on "why warlords and drug barons are still running the country" is kind of moot.  That is a matter for the Afghan Government to make decisions on.

Discussions on why any prisoners that Canada turns over are being tortured is outside of our legal responsibility, as we are turning over to the legally elected Government of the "Host" nation.  Afghanistan.  Once they are in the Afghan "Legal System", they not being Canadians, are not really our responsibility.  As a side note; do you have proof that the statement you said, about torture, is in fact correct or are you spewing Left Wing rumours and innuendo?  What would you propose, a "Catch and Release" program?

I do believe the House has debated many times on what roles Canada can play in Afghanistan, so you seem to be out of the picture more and more as we look further into your statements.

As for debates, with some research you can find many such debates on these very subjects everywhere from here on Milnet.ca through to Hansard.  
 
Parliment has held these dicussions? when? the last one was about six hours long, which is not nearly long enough for such an important decision.
Sure its the problem of the Afghan Govt to wonder why drug lords, warlords, and bribes are such an important part of their government. Its our problem to wonder why our government (Conservatives) continue to support this government. As your comment on NATO support from certain countries; its no secret. You can read about it in any national newspaper. They have been asked over and over and simply refuse.
Again on the question of the tortured prisioners, you are right. It is the legal responsiblity of the Afghan government, but if I have an issue with why our Conservative Government continues to do this, if they know what the prisoner has to face.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/afghanistan/detainees.html
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2007/10/29/qc-afghanreport1029.html
if this problem has been cleared up, why do these stories continue to surface?
 
sgf said:
Parliment has held these dicussions? when? the last one was about six hours long, which is not nearly long enough for such an important decision.
Sure its the problem of the Afghan Govt to wonder why drug lords, warlords, and bribes are such an important part of their government. Its our problem to wonder why our government (Conservatives) continue to support this government. As your comment on NATO support from certain countries; its no secret. You can read about it in any national newspaper. They have been asked over and over and simply refuse.
Again on the question of the tortured prisioners, you are right. It is the legal responsiblity of the Afghan government, but if I have an issue with why our Conservative Government continues to do this, if they know what the prisoner has to face.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/afghanistan/detainees.html
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2007/10/29/qc-afghanreport1029.html
if this problem has been cleared up, why do these stories continue to surface?

So you are a disgruntled Ex-sailor?  Do we have to have a discussion in Parliament about that too?

As I said, the decisions are made by the Government (READ: CONSERVATIVES).  Discussions in Parliament have little or no affect on the decisions of the Government.  

I am sure you know darn well, as do all others in this country, as to why our Government supports the Government of Afghanistan.  Well, perhaps you don't; but that is not a national issue is it?

So?  You believe the national newspapers as to what exactly is going on in other NATO countries, when they can't even get what is going on in ours right?  And why do we have to discuss that in Parliament, and not where it should rightfully be discussed; at NATO?

So, you also know more about the treatment of prisoners in foreign jails than the Government?  It still is out of our control, unless you would like to take some into your home as being under "House Arrest"?  Get real.  

Why do these stories keep resurfacing?  Because the media is "entertainment" to our decadent society.  Why else do they want to "Sell" their news?  They don't care about the truth, only profits and being the unwitting tools of so called "human rights activists".  Browse the site a bit and tell me about the how wonderful these twits are treating Canadians.  A few examples:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AzVJTHIvqw8

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kHrtlO5Hg88

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d0B-lYfYXmM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6n3SdV2cwn4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lFXJaEYyYjY

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3iMNM1tef7g

sgf said:
why is it a rumor, do you have a link to change my mind?

Actually, I have asked you that a few posts ago.  You seem to be working off rumour and innuendo, so perhaps you can provide us with valid proof.  We have our Canadian media making statements.  We have our Canadian Judge Louise Arbour saying that their prisons don't "comply" with our "Western" standards.  Come on.  Not every place in the world is as safe and comfy as we have it here.  There are nasty people out there.  Many of them would like to see you dead, simply because you are not of their Faith or Colour.  Have you heard anything yet on them cleaning up Turkish Prisons?  Neither have I, and they belong in NATO. 
 
Sorry, no proof they aren't being tortured.  But I've yet to hear "proof" that they are beyond the allegations from the prisoners.  I've sure if you asked enough prisoners in the Canadian legal system at least one will alledge abuse.  It doesn't mean its true and it doesn't mean it false.  But who does the burden of proof rest on? I just want to point out theres very little in the way "facts" in most of those articles.
 
sgf said:
you never know, if there can be some proof that these prisoners are not being tortured I certainly would like to read it. He made a statement, I just asked if he could back it up.. thats all.

Back what up?  I asked you for proof that the prisoners were being tortured.  I didn't say they weren't.  I said that it was none of our concern.  Is it required to have a national debate or a debate in Parliament because several States in the US have the Death Penalty?  It would seem that we even have Canadians on Death Row in some US prisons, as well as in other nations.  We are talking about a whole different situation here, where we are giving foreigners, captured in a foreign land, over to the Legally appointed Government of that foreign land.  I would think that not to do so would be a grave breach of International Law.  Their penal system is not our penal system and of no concern of our Government.  Take it to the UN.  (And we all know where that will go.)
 
Galt I said that there needs to be no consent of Parliament for the deployment of the CF.  Though the Governor-in-Council and the CDS and MND have to sign off on any deployments.  
 
George Wallace said:
Back what up?  I asked you for proof that the prisoners were being tortured.  I didn't say they weren't.  I said that it was none of our concern.  Is it required to have a national debate or a debate in Parliament because several States in the US have the Death Penalty?  It would seem that we even have Canadians on Death Row in some US prisons, as well as in other nations.  We are talking about a whole different situation here, where we are giving foreigners, captured in a foreign land, over to the Legally appointed Government of that foreign land.  I would think that not to do so would be a grave breach of International Law.  Their penal system is not our penal system and of no concern of our Government.  Take it to the UN.  (And we all know where that will go.)
if its not our concern, when we are the ones that are handing prisoners over without truly knowing what is going to happen or not happen to them, whos concern is it? Maybe these prisoners are lying, maybe they arent being tortured, maybe they just disappear . But if there is the slightest concern that torture is being carried out, and we turn a blind eye to it, thats not the Canada that I believe in.  We are the ones that are helping to prop up this government so I feel that some reassurances should be given.
 
sgf said:
if its not our concern, when we are the ones that are handing prisoners over without truly knowing what is going to happen or not happen to them, whos concern is it? Maybe these prisoners are lying, maybe they arent being tortured, maybe they just disappear . But if there is the slightest concern that torture is being carried out, and we turn a blind eye to it, thats not the Canada that I believe in.  We are the ones that are helping to prop up this government so I feel that some reassurances should be given.

Fer Chris Sake!  Where do you want our responsibilities to begin and where do you expect them to end?  Do we now have to take over the US job of "World Policeman" and save the World?  Come on.  Get Serious.  Canada has been all mouth and no action all these years, and now you have decided we must over step our legal responsibilites and save the world. 
 
sgf

Clear a few things up.

What do you know of handling prisoners?  Have you ever handled prisoners?

What do you know about the Law?  What do you know about International Law?

What do you know of International Agreements with regard to the Transfer of prisoners?

What do you know of NATO policies relating to the Transport and Transference of prisoners in a War Zone?

What do you know of the Legal System of Afghanistan?

Do you know of any Reciprocal Agreements between Canada and Afghanistan?  Any NATO nation and Afghanistan?

What do you know, other than some Left Wing crap that is constantly being regurgitated, not providing a solution, nor subjective to any meaningful discussion?

Actually there are many more questions, but I'll stop here.
 
George Wallace said:
So you are a disgruntled Ex-sailor?  Do we have to have a discussion in Parliament about that too?

As I said, the decisions are made by the Government (READ: CONSERVATIVES).  Discussions in Parliament have little or no affect on the decisions of the Government.  

I am sure you know darn well, as do all others in this country, as to why our Government supports the Government of Afghanistan.  Well, perhaps you don't; but that is not a national issue is it?

So?  You believe the national newspapers as to what exactly is going on in other NATO countries, when they can't even get what is going on in ours right?  And why do we have to discuss that in Parliament, and not where it should rightfully be discussed; at NATO?

So, you also know more about the treatment of prisoners in foreign jails than the Government?  It still is out of our control, unless you would like to take some into your home as being under "House Arrest"?  Get real.  

Why do these stories keep resurfacing?  Because the media is "entertainment" to our decadent society.  Why else do they want to "Sell" their news?  They don't care about the truth, only profits and being the unwitting tools of so called "human rights activists".  Browse the site a bit and tell me about the how wonderful these twits are treating Canadians.  A few examples:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AzVJTHIvqw8

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kHrtlO5Hg88

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d0B-lYfYXmM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6n3SdV2cwn4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lFXJaEYyYjY

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3iMNM1tef7g

Actually, I have asked you that a few posts ago.  You seem to be working off rumour and innuendo, so perhaps you can provide us with valid proof.  We have our Canadian media making statements.  We have our Canadian Judge Louise Arbour saying that their prisons don't "comply" with our "Western" standards.  Come on.  Not every place in the world is as safe and comfy as we have it here.  There are nasty people out there.  Many of them would like to see you dead, simply because you are not of their Faith or Colour.  Have you heard anything yet on them cleaning up Turkish Prisons?  Neither have I, and they belong in NATO. 

i am not disgrunted nor am i an ex sailor, what does that have to do with this conversation? The discussion/debate we shaould have is on what our present role our country is taking there and for how long this present role is going to last. I am fully aware that Parlimentary debates have little affect on government decisions but it certainly would be nice to have a bit longer debate than 6 hours. A debate without name calling and accusation from both sides of the house.
I feel that the reason that our government is supporting this war, is because Bush wishes it to be so. and that goes for this present government and the last one. Bush rushed in and after a few successful wins, thought that war was over and pulled most of his military out  to invade Iraq. Little did he realize what a rats nest he left behind. He should have stayed and done the job in the first place.
I also do happen to believe the newspapers regarding the support of the other NATO countries. The reason I believe them, is if these countries were going to change their role or supply more troops there certainly would have been a major news announcement by now. I must have missed that somehow.
We are not discussing death row in the states, turkish prisons or even how Canadians are treated abroad. We are discussing what our government knows about prisioners being transferred and handed over, what happens to them afterwards. Frankly if there is any small doubt at all, correct information should be obtained. Too many false rumors out there.
 
sgf said:
oh i probably know about as much as most of the average posters here

Mmmm,

I highly suggest that you start with a re-read of the Geneva Conventions first then to refresh your knowledge, because your posts indicate that you may think that you know more than you actually do; especially so when it comes to handling detainess, POWs etc etc.

Not knowing the basic requirements for their handling & classification -- quite often leads to those who presume to know (ie you) -- stating that they do know and that they are informed, when, in actuality, quite the opposite is true. I think we may have a case of that on our hands judging by some of your previous statements.
 
sgf said:
We are discussing what our government knows about prisioners being transferred and handed over, what happens to them afterwards.

...and if they were uniformed soldiers of an enemy than I would care. They are not, they hide in civilian garb among the local populous.

I'm sure others will correct me here but doesn't that make them eligible to be executed under those pesky Genava Convention rules?
 
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