Dion's opinions/garble.

[Armymedic]

I'm sure others will correct me here but doesn't that make them eligible to be executed under those pesky Genava Convention rules?

Not really, but as UNLAWFUL combatants they are not previledged to the rights of a POW and may be convicted of war crimes....which could lead to the death penalty if applicable in the country where they are charged.

 

[Good2Golf]

...and if they were uniformed soldiers of an enemy than I would care. They are not, they hide in civilian garb among the local populous.

I'm sure others will correct me here but doesn't that make them eligible to be executed under those pesky Genava Convention rules?

According to the Geneva Convention, the Taliban are operating as illegal combatants.

The point of Canadian/NATO soldiers handing over Taliban prisoners where some may question their treatment is confirmed neither one way or the other.  No one has provided any proof of confirmed torture by the ANSF once handed over by Cdn/NATO troops.

Viewing the issue from a different angle, to not hand over detainees to the Afghan security forces would directly go against our and other nations' positions to only assist the Afghan government, vice "occupying" and acting on our own accord.  People can't have it both ways.

Those who assert that detainees are being tortured, provide proof -- otherwise, it remains incumbent upon Cdn soldiers to continue handing detainees over to the indigenous government forces as soon as possible.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Thanks gentlemen.

 

[Armymedic]

Those who assert that detainees are being tortured, provide proof -- otherwise, it remains incumbent upon Cdn soldiers to continue handing detainees over to the indigenous government forces as soon as possible.

No proof of torture exists. The "closest proof" was in G&M's Graham Smiths prisoner reports of beatings and exposure to the elements. There has been no independent 3rd person confirmation of those allegations. Inhuman treatment of prisoners has been reported in the Saraposa prison. All prisoners are chained constantly. That has been found by international tribunal to be inhumane but not torture. Unfortunately, Afghan prisons have yet to join our modern penal system where everyone get their own 8x6 ft cell, so they resort to hold multiple prisoners chained together chained to a wall, as has been the method since the crusades.

 

[Cheshire]

Getting back on topic......I do not like Dion or his opinions. Another Jean Cretien in a cheap suit.

 

[armyvern]

no problem, I didnt realize that one couldnt post a different opinion, I sure didnt mean to tread on anyones toes or insult anyone. Sorry if that happened. enjoy your forums.

Oh of course. The usual arguement that is heard "you are supressing me because of my dissenting opinion." We are doing no such thing. We are stating facts, and asking you to back up your self-described "knowledge" with facts. Eerily, the facts to back up your diatribes always seem to elude persons like yourself when confronted with the actualities of the Geneva Conventions etc. You sure as heck didn't tread on my toes -- and I highly doubt that if you did happen to step on them, that it'd really make one drip drop of difference in my day.

OK,

You, in all your expertise, have told us that Canada is wrong for handing over POWs. You're wrong; they're NOT POWs, they are unlawful combatants as per the Geneva Conventions.

You have told us that you know what you are talking about on par with the average poster here, to which we're saying "obviously not"; the average poster here is well aware of the Geneva Conventions and the proper classifications of pers detained -- which we have demonstrated to you -- you are not.

You have insinuated that Canada (ie we soldiers specificly) are wrong in handing over "POWs (who are actually & in reality "unlawful combatants)" to Afghan authorities who torture them. We have pointed out that there:

1) is NO substantiated evidence of torture (and actually some of those interviewed have denied that they were or that Canada had anything to do with what has previously been identified as being "inhumane" mistreatment but far from torture);

2) Your classification of them is incorrect as per the Geneva Conventions;

3) That NOT handing them over to Afghan authorities constitutes an "occupational" decision as the government of Afghanistan is democraticly elected and autonomous and therefore we, in our role to "assist" that government have no legal grounds to retain those unlawful combattants or we are THEN in contravention of the Geneva Conventions; and

4) That pers like yourself constantly yell that we are "not assisting but are occupying" when it suits your agenda, but want to see us "occupy and not assist" whenever it suits your agenda as in "keep the detainees and NOT hand them over (ie the "have your cake and eat it too comment from below").

So, you need to educate yourself as to the Geneva Conventions --- then you need to sort yourself the hell out --- then post exactly what it is you wish to see us do, keeping in full mind that Canada IS/DOES/HAS ALWAYS been in full compliance with the Geneva Conventions if Afghanistan and that should you request us to do anything different than that which we currently are doing with pers detained ... you are asking us to go against the Geneva Conventions and to act as an "occupier."

George Bush has sweet fuck all to do with that, but it seems to be a recurring theme for those who are hungry for eating that big calorie packed slice of cake.  :

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

the CDS and MND have to sign off on any deployments. 

No they don't.  Stop saying that they do.

 

[sgf]

work for the liberals? why would you ask me that? because I am a liberal? or question the Harper government?

I do not have proof that torture is indeed happening to these prisoners,only what i read, like everyone else does, in the media.  But no one else has any proof that it isnt. I truly hope it isnt and I truly hope that Harper is making the right decisions. Our military went to Cyprus for 6 months and stayed for a lot longer than that, I sure hope thats not the case in Afghanistan. As i said I hope I have not insulted anyone here, that was not my intent.

 

[George Wallace]

Getting back on topic......I do not like Dion or his opinions. Another Jean Cretien in a cheap suit.

Actually, I would lean towards George Bush.  If the Americans liked to make fun of "George Bushisms", it seems many Canadians may want to follow suit and elect a PM just for "comic relief" and then we can make a claim to have followed suit with our own "Stefan Dionisms".  ;D

 

[Armymedic]

I do not have proof that torture is indeed happening to these prisoners,only what i read, like everyone else does, in the media.  But no one else has any proof that it isnt. I truly hope it isnt

What difference does it make if Afghan authorities torture prisoners? It is thier country, thier laws, their citizens. We trade extensively with China, and there is documented proof that human rights abuses happen there routinely.

Our military went to Cyprus for 6 months and stayed for a lot longer than that, I sure hope thats not the case in Afghanistan.

As it was in the Golan Hieghts, Bosnia, Haiti and every other crap hole "peacekeeping" mission the CF has been on. Why can the CF not stay in Afghanistan for 15 years and ensure a stable democratic Islamic government in that country?

 

[George Wallace]

Wasn't the saying, actually in both World Wars, "We'll be home for Christmas."?  How many years did they take again?

We still have Troops stationed in Europe, and the end of the Second World War and the Defeat of Hitler was in 1945.  Same can be said about Japan.  How is it people these days think it would only take one year to bring peace to Afghanistan or Iraq?

 

[Armymedic]

Anyone who was a WO would know more about the military side, Geneva convention, etc which
he obviously can't grasp. 

You can't really question his profile. It does not say how long ago he retired. Perhaps it was before the last convention was signed? Regardless, everyones opinion on this subject is based upon what they see, hear or experience. If his "experience" is limited to media only, then his arguments make sense. Anyone read the Globe and Mail comments section after any story. Everything he says is stated there repeatedly as well. Stating that, because it is repeated (just like a good rumour) does not make it so.

 

[George Wallace]

You can't really question his profile. It does not say how long ago he retired. Perhaps it was before the last convention was signed? Regardless, everyones opinion on this subject is based upon what they see, hear or experience. If his "experience" is limited by media only, then his arguments make sense. Anyone read the Globe and Mail comments section after any story. Everything he says is stated there repeatedly as well. Stating that, because it is repeated (just like a good rumour) does not make it so.

.....Nor do many Non-Cbt Arms Purple Trades deal with prisoners, nor have any interest in reading up on ROEs, Geneva Conventions, etc.  The guys at the "pointy end" in all three Elements do have to deal with these things.

 

[sgf]

As it was in the Golan Hieghts, Bosnia, Haiti and every other crap hole "peacekeeping" mission the CF has been on. Why can the CF not stay in Afghanistan for 15 years and ensure a stable democratic Islamic government in that country?

because it is going to take a lot longer than 15 years plus a wack of money; and the only democratic islamic govt i know is turkey, and afghanistan is generations from that.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

I do not have proof that torture is indeed happening to these prisoners,only what i read, like everyone else does, in the media.  But no one else has any proof that it isnt. I truly hope it isnt and

Yeah, while I don't have any proof that my next-door neighbour is not a child molestor, and I truly hope he isn't, etc. ... WTF?

 

[Armymedic]

because it is going to take a lot longer than 15 years plus a wack of money; and the only democratic islamic govt i know is turkey, and afghanistan is generations from that.

Then generations is what it will take. We will be there as long as our democratically elected Prime Minister says we need to be.

 

[armyvern]

now this is actually funny, if you cant put up a good argument, you can always resort to insults. !!!

And here we sit; still waiting to see that "good argument" backed up with some actual knowledge instead of "claimed knowledge" from you.

 

[George Wallace]

Then generations is what it will take. We will be there as long as our democratically elected Prime Minister says we need to be.

OK.  

You guys have now agreed "It is going to take a long time."

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Folks, the topic is cleaned up a little so that maybe the discussion can continue,however I would feel no remorse if I had to stick this thread in the trash.
Bruce

 

[Good2Golf]

because it is going to take a lot longer than 15 years plus a wack of money; and the only democratic islamic govt i know is turkey, and afghanistan is generations from that.

sgf, this statement is not correct. 

Afghanistan held democratic elections, and all members of parliament are democratically elected.  Why do you then say Turkey is the only democratic Islamic?