NL_engineer
Army.ca Veteran
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BinRat55 said:
Well the issued desert boots must be the best, when your COC recommend that we invest in better desert boots :
NL_engineer
Army.ca Veteran
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Infidel-6 said:
What kind of desert boot would you recommend (they have to be at least 8"high to keep the COC happy) ?
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Infidel-6 said:I think I spent more than 7 years in the CF wearing non issue boots, but I appreciate your comments :
And I think i've spent 20 following orders and enforcing regs - so my comments are valid, but thanks for your appreciation.
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BinRat55 said:
With all possible respect, BinRat55 you are in danger of being seen as that mule about which Fredrick the Great mused when he said:
"A mule who has carried a pack for ten campaigns under Prince Eugene will be no better tactician for it, and it must be confessed, to the disgrace of humanity, that many men grow old in an otherwise respectable profession without making any greater progress than this mule.
To follow the routine of the service, to become occupied with the care of its fodder and lodging, to march when the army marches, camp when it camps, fight when it fights--for the great majority of officers this is what is meant by having served, campaigned, grown gray in the harness. For this reason one sees so many soldiers occupied with trifling matters and rusted by gross ignorance. Instead of soaring audaciously among the clouds, such men know only how to crawl methodically in the mire. They are never perplexed and will never know the causes of their triumphs or defeats." (Source: Luvaas (ed) "Frederick the Great on the Art of War," New York, 1966, p. 47)
In my military experience, approaching 40 years, soldiers have always tried to make themselves more effective, more efficient and more comfortable - despite the good, not so good and too often crumby equipment on issue. My guess is that most of them want to and will continue to do so - despite whole bloody bookcases full of "orders and regs," the bulk of which are, thankfully, never read (much less enforced) by anyone at all.
There are some good reasons for enforcing some equipment standards, including some standards for some personal kit. There are, also, some good reasons for ignoring the best ideas/wishes of officialdom and adapting whatever is available to the task at hand. Sadly it falls, mostly, to the infantryman - far away from a warm, dry, regulation filled, fixed base - to be the one who must do the adapting. Perhaps, on reflection, it's not so sad; perhaps what's sad is that so many people - with no dog in the fight - want to complicate (unnecessarily) his already difficult, dangerous, dirty and uncomfortable life.
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Mr. Campbell,
While your words are quite eloquent and your quotes are sharp, you and I have had this discussion before. I've no wish to stand toe to toe with a man of your experience - but hear this - 40 years ago the army was a different time. Even 20 years ago we were a different sort of beast. Today shows a style of adaptation the likes of which you and I have never seen before. But it don't change the fact that rules are in place for a reason. No one person, myself included, will ever agree to all of them, but everyone who signs on that dotted line, myself included, will follow them. There is a right way and a wrong way to question authority and in your day when authority was questioned people were shot. Today they are rewarded and it makes me ill.
I do have a dog in the fight - actually I have two dogs - and they wear issued boots.
While your words are quite eloquent and your quotes are sharp, you and I have had this discussion before. I've no wish to stand toe to toe with a man of your experience - but hear this - 40 years ago the army was a different time. Even 20 years ago we were a different sort of beast. Today shows a style of adaptation the likes of which you and I have never seen before. But it don't change the fact that rules are in place for a reason. No one person, myself included, will ever agree to all of them, but everyone who signs on that dotted line, myself included, will follow them. There is a right way and a wrong way to question authority and in your day when authority was questioned people were shot. Today they are rewarded and it makes me ill.
I do have a dog in the fight - actually I have two dogs - and they wear issued boots.
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Perhaps he does not...
But I do
There is maybe a reason that individuals and units on a whole have moved past the issue only system. The major reason is perhaps the simplest ISSUE boots do not work! Yes you can over time force the feet to adapt to them like they did in the "Good Ole Days of the Army" which is JUNK!
Why do SOF units not enforce the issue boots? and I will trump this card now it's not LCF or the need to be different it's because they allow their troops to investigate the boots or shoe that works best for them and makes them more comfortable and effective. The grand high mucky mucks of the CF (You know those guys that have been in for 30+ years and who lord their cubicle as their own universe) loathe the idea that their little world can be shattered and their usefulness erased by some Cpl in line unit saying "Are you nuts these blisters tell me this isn't going to work" and lo and behold the MO agreed!
There is also the CANFORGEN which states at CO discretion that a soldier can wear boots of any type so long as they are 8" in ankle length and black and bought at the soldiers expense....
But I do
There is maybe a reason that individuals and units on a whole have moved past the issue only system. The major reason is perhaps the simplest ISSUE boots do not work! Yes you can over time force the feet to adapt to them like they did in the "Good Ole Days of the Army" which is JUNK!
Why do SOF units not enforce the issue boots? and I will trump this card now it's not LCF or the need to be different it's because they allow their troops to investigate the boots or shoe that works best for them and makes them more comfortable and effective. The grand high mucky mucks of the CF (You know those guys that have been in for 30+ years and who lord their cubicle as their own universe) loathe the idea that their little world can be shattered and their usefulness erased by some Cpl in line unit saying "Are you nuts these blisters tell me this isn't going to work" and lo and behold the MO agreed!
There is also the CANFORGEN which states at CO discretion that a soldier can wear boots of any type so long as they are 8" in ankle length and black and bought at the soldiers expense....
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BinRat55 said:
With, yet again, all possible respect, BinRat55, I guess I do, too, have a “dog in the fight:” my son is serving and his situation is often uncomfortable, cold, wet and dangerous – frequently dangerous when there is no enemy present.
Even though I have been long retired and even though my son doesn’t complain to me, I am certain that his life is also unduly complicated by the (only occasional, to be sure) mindless enforcement of ill-considered, often out of date, “orders and regs” – some of which may do more than just increase his discomfort. Fortunately he is in a part of the CF that understands the vast difference between “orders” and “regulations” and, further, understands that, on rare occasions, the former must be interpreted and that, usually, the latter are, really, guidance to help sensible commanders get their jobs done in the most effective, efficient and even comfortable manner possible.
Secondly, the army has not changed all that much in nearly a half century. Soldiers are, to be sure, much better equipped that we were – even though some soldiers have scant regard for the utility of some of their equipment. But the fact is that the army has always recognized that none of its kit was or is perfect – that’s why there exists, even today, a system for soldiers to report deficiencies and to recommend changes. Some soldiers are a bit quicker to see the need for change than is the system and many of them are a wee bit impatient – especially when their comfort, their combat effectiveness and even their very lives may be at risk.
I’m sure it is frustrating to see so many soldiers putting aside expensive, thoroughly tested and approved kit in favour of something that may well be or may just appear to be flavour of the month. But that doesn’t mean that the “so many” are all wrong, all the time.
We should all be a bit flexible in our thinking – especially when we are thinking of the people at the sharp end: on ships, in FOBs and in aircraft.
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X
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CSA 105 said:
I will be the first person to say yes when I can. I have been there and have issued to the finest soldiers in theatre - and not once has a soldier "needed" something on my watch if I had it - scales do not mean much to me overseas. I am 100% behind Vern for the proverbial "Boot allowance". But all i'm trying to say is that soldiers should not be going out and buying their own uniforms - boots included. The system will never change for the better and pretty soon even verbal orders will be taken as "suggestions".
I'm as frustrated with the supply system as the next person, but we are doing better. You all ask us to walk in your shoes for a bit, but no one wants to get behind the counter and do the work to improve the system, do they? I may not have ever been on a front line, but I have done my time in four different countries - in and outside the wire - and can tell you that we need a better supply system AND an attitude adjustment.
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REF: Canadian Forces Supply Manual Vol 3, Ch 13, Sec G, Art 002, para5e. (CFSM 3-13G-002.5e)
e. Individuals whose foot size falls within the range of standard catalogue sizes and who do not accept the service footwear shall be advised to obtain footwear from other sources at their own expense. To ensure uniformity and quality of dress, CF personnel shall select commercial footwear that conforms as closely as possible to the standards of the regulation footwear.
e. Individuals whose foot size falls within the range of standard catalogue sizes and who do not accept the service footwear shall be advised to obtain footwear from other sources at their own expense. To ensure uniformity and quality of dress, CF personnel shall select commercial footwear that conforms as closely as possible to the standards of the regulation footwear.
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CSA 105 said:
You just reminded me of a discussion No. 1 Son (my “dog in the fight”) and I had a while back. He was telling me that he adhered to an old, old (and good, in my opinion) rule: "Only I (the boss) can say 'No'."
As we were talking, he had just reminded his subordinated that they could agree to pretty much anything that was within their area of responsibility and capabilities. They could, indeed should always say 'Yes' if they could do the job. If the job was beyond their scope/capabilities or if they felt a need to say 'No' then they had to pass the request with their recommendation (with reasons) up the CoC until, eventually, it reached No. 1 Son's immaculate desk (from which, I imagine he removed his (steward polished) shiny shoes) whereupon he decides if a 'No' is really warranted or necessary.
I recall this lesson from 40+ years ago when I was temporarily appointed to be Assistant Adjutant (punishment, maybe?). My CO was a stickler for "Everyone can say 'Yes" but only I can say 'No'." It gave subordinate commanders (OCs) tremendous freedom. That particular CO was never unhappy to see an empty parade square and an empty MT compound - he was always happy to see soldiers out of garrison doing something and, hopefully, having fun in the process. (He was also convinced that having fun ≈ working very hard but that working hard for no good purpose ≠ fun.) As a good general rule the staff should not be allowed to say ‘No’ – that should be a command responsibility – a “wait out” (while I ask the boss) is acceptable provided it is followed, shortly by either a ‘Yes’ or the boss, himself (maybe herself nowadays), saying ‘No.’
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Can you feel another topic split coming on?
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New desert boots are the only part of my kit that I will never part with due to a "no non-issue kit rule". I'd rather take the charge for NDA129 and Disobeying a Lawful command over destroying my feet and shins in boots that absolutely do not work for me. Its not a slight at the Supply system, or the very capable techs that work long hours to make sure we all have the basic compliment of equipment to do our job. Whoever does the procurement for the boots is horribly failing the soldiers in the field. I personally can't imagine walking around in the Altama boots (I'm can't get a chit so I can't try the Boulet boots) for an entire 6 month tour.
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PuckChaser said:
I hear ya. I had no problem getting a chit for boots, and still can't get what the big deal is. From what I've seen, real NCO's/staff don't even care on courses these days, as long as it's black!
