Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS

[mariomike]

I watched the CTV news last night (no, I don't have the link , I'm not that savvy...savvy?) Accord to thier report, Wilcox was instructing weapons lectures in Aldershot to Reserves after he was formally charged yet waiting court martial.
Is this normal procedure??

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/soldier-found-guilty/#clip199259

 

[Gunner98]

He was not suspended from duty.  Innocent until proven guilty. We don't arraign people prior to a court martial so unless a very high level in the chain of command puts restrictions on employment then it won't happen.  This is a slippery slope.

In the case of Rob Fraser whose charging were later withdrawn and was Reg Force I do not think it is likely that any restrictions were placed either.

Under the provisions of Queens Regulations and Orders (QR&O) 19.75 - Suspension From Duty:
·  An officer or non-commissioned member may be suspended from duty by the Chief of the Defence Staff, or an officer commanding a command.
·  These authorities may suspend an officer or non-commissioned member from duty in any circumstance that, in the authorities opinion, render it undesirable in the interests of the Service that the member remain on duty.
PROCESS
·  Each case is carefully assessed, based on its own merits.
·  Determination of suspension is only made after a complete investigation has been conducted by the police.
·  Normally, civilian police charges laid under the Criminal Code of Canada are applied prior to suspension, and the member is arraigned before a judge and a hearing date is set.
·  Determination of suspension is based on the seriousness of the alleged offences, that is, if the nature of the offences brings serious discredit to the Canadian Forces and, if convicted, will likely result in release.

 

[gaspasser]

I wonder, if like Kyle Brown, Wilcox will be charged in civil court too?
Brown served his 2 years less a day at CFMDB then was released then escorted to civie prison. 
I'm sorry if I look crass, but gunplay with your buddies and "accidentally" killing one is not kosher in my books.  Years of weapons discipline and having a right head on my shoulders have taught me that.
This is the profession of arms and we don't f^&* around with it.  Maybe it's a brotherhood/sisterhood thing.  Just not On.
:2c:

 

[Gunner98]

This discussion is a premature but your facts are inaccurate - Brown did not face civilian charges. On March 16, 1994, exactly one year after the death of Shidane Arone, the court martial panel found Pte Brown guilty of manslaughter and torture. Brown was dismissed with disgrace and was sentenced to five years in prison.  He was released from the military on May 24, 1995 and was transferred to a civilian penitentiary. He was released on parole in November 1995.

 

[X-mo-1979]

After reading through the comments on other news agency's one thing keeps popping up.People saying its a poor accident because they were bored.They were not in the dessert in a mod tent!They were in a CITY called Kandahar airfield.If they got bored they could have went to:

-Salsa classes
-Chess Club
-Ran around in normal civilian gear in the marathon club
-Went to the multitude of awesome gyms
-Hung out at burgerking,tim hortons second cup....etc etc
-went for a massage at the multiple massage parlors.
-Went to one of the differnt country ran hang outs (ie canada house NAFFE)
-went to excellent internet facilities.
-Went to the "raves" with DJ Shut yo mouth (seen a poster)
-ball hockey
-soft ball
-football
-Rugby
-large internet gaming trailers hooked together so people can play war games etc against each other
I can continue....

It annoys me that some people think these guys were bored and that's the reason.They were in a war zone and more or less "behind the front lines" for the most part.They had every facility imaginable and boredom in my mind is B/S.
This soldier is going to jail and a young man is dead due to stupidity,unprofessional action,childishness.Plain and simple.

The media is painting a picture of two soldiers sitting in a hot mod in the middle of no where.Which as anyone who has been to or have passed through KAF going out to FOB's and COP's knows differnt. KAF has more facilities than Petawawa,and their living arrangements have A/C.

I'm not sure if these guys were in the modules or the large BAT's. Either way again the media is painting a different picture to the Canadian public.

As for the reserve thing not being trained is B/S.

However after reading another post here about how many medals force protection got made me quite angry.Congrats to those who got recognized and became war heros.But lets face what makes someone get recognized.Your leaderships willingness to take the time to write that stuff up,your leadership believes that it wasnt just "doing their jobs".I have seen plenty people get recognized for stuff that I saw my guys doing, however we believed patching up 12 ANA guys (for one of the many examples )as part of our job and not being fing war heros.The only recognition many got was a pat on the back at the end of a day over a Perrier back inside the FOB.And thats all any of them/we wanted.

So as for the Force protection awards it ranks right up there with the reg reserve argument in my book.

(rant off)

 

[gaspasser]

This discussion is a premature but your facts are inaccurate - Brown did not face civilian charges. On March 16, 1994, exactly one year after the death of Shidane Arone, the court martial panel found Pte Brown guilty of manslaughter and torture. Brown was dismissed with disgrace and was sentenced to five years in prison.  He was released from the military on May 24, 1995 and was transferred to a civilian penitentiary. He was released on parole in November 1995.

I stand corrected. Thank FE...but I knew he went to civ prison. As a continuation of his military sentence?? 

...blame the sumseimers...

 

[tech2002]

what would it happened or how the sentence would play if he admitted that he shot him accidentally,  that they played quick draw, and firearm discharged by accidentally pressing trigger ???.. 
would he get lesser sentence ? 

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

what would it happened or how the sentence would play if he admitted that he shot him accidentally,  that they played quick draw, and firearm discharged by accidentally pressing trigger ???.. 
would he get lesser sentence ?

I assume that's the scenario the panel bought.  Given the repetitive training to the contrary it would be difficult to call it an accident rather than negligence.  As stated by mariomike a true accident would not have led to criminal charges but maybe administrative punishment.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_219/20090730/en#anchorbo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_219

Causing death by criminal negligence

220. Every person who by criminal negligence causes death to another person is guilty of an indictable offence and liable

(a) where a firearm is used in the commission of the offence, to imprisonment for life and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of four years; and

(b) in any other case, to imprisonment for life.

R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 220; 1995, c. 39, s. 141.

 

[Bintheredunthat]

Don't forget that the old AD was replaced with ND a few years back.

Ok not a valid point really - but the military did put a lot of the onus on individuals for their own weapon.  With the amount of trg that "should" be provided, there still would be no excuse for such an accident.

But this is all hypothetical of course, since this isn't what really happened.  The accident part that is.

I dunno.  I was following the story and in my mind (or at least from what the media told me), the story line changed from one day to another.  I'll have to read some facts from a more reliable source I suppose.

Bin

 

[1feral1]

what would it happened or how the sentence would play if he admitted that he shot him accidentally,  that they played quick draw, and firearm discharged by accidentally pressing trigger ???.. 
would he get lesser sentence ?

Wll we really can't speculate on that, but it takes a real man to own up to his own shortcomings on such a tragic event.

To try and wiggle out of this has cost him the respect from complete strangers including myself.

Perhaps the court would have looked at this outcome differently if he just would have admiited the obvious.

My thoughts.

OWDU

 

[Greymatters]

I think it needs to be recalled that the defendant doesnt always choose the defense tactic - the lawyer often decides what tactic/defence to use, and convinces the client to use it. 

Regarding the accused, fear of jail time, or the impact of having a criminal record on the rest of your life, can make many people adjust their personal ethics to fit the situation...

 

[helpup]

I know people who have shot thier Friends and did not try to weasel out of it.  It was a tragic misstake that cost a life, and altered another permanently as he did his time and was released from the military.  I thought at the time the sentance was too extreme as there was nothing that the army could do to this man that he wasnt doing to himself for killing a close freind.  He went to the CM and stated the facts. ( he did have a Civi lawyer though,) not once though did he try to deny what had happened or shift blame. 
The Lawyer may be able to work with a defence but that is on the wishes of the accused, and or the consent. 

 

[Gunner98]

The Lawyer may be able to work with a defence but that is on the wishes of the accused, and or the consent.

Please remember that the accused chooses his "plea" - from there it is a team effort to navigate the trial process to prove that plea.  It is the prosecution who has the onus to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the plea of not guilty is incorrect.  Several tactics were introduced as in any case - ricochet, heightened alertness etc, to create that reasonable doubt which is the defence's goal.

As desperate defence may sometimes grasp at straws to manufacture that doubt.

helpup - do tell/qualify your statement, which CM are you referring to?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

After reading through the comments on other news agency's one thing keeps popping up.People saying its a poor accident because they were bored.They were not in the dessert in a mod tent!They were in a CITY called Kandahar airfield.

The media is painting a picture of two soldiers sitting in a hot mod in the middle of no where.Which as anyone who has been to or have passed through KAF going out to FOB's and COP's knows differnt. KAF has more facilities than Petawawa,and their living arrangements have A/C.

When I read your post, my first thought was something I'll call the "Jarhead" defence.  You know, the part in the movie where buddy looses it and starts making the young Pte with the google-glasses repeat "this is my weapon..." with the wpn readied and pointed at him.

Maybe the defence was hoping the CM panel had watched it...

I didn't know Cpl Kevin Megeney.  I did go to his funeral, as I had been part of the 36 CBG for many years.  I've known many mbr's of the PLF, 1 NSH, and 2 NSH.  I was at the Bde HQ when the trg Coy was stood up to select/train the Reservists from the Bde and around some of the...*politics* that such things always seem to bring out.  I have my own opinions on certain things that I won't put up in a public forum.  I wasn't there that fatal day when that round was fired that took his life.

I've read on this thread that people haven't ever pointed their weapon at anyone in trg.  I'll be the first one to say that I HAVE, as the trg was for war, and in war people kill and are killed.  Trg includes, IMO, the mental conditioning to pull the trigger when you have the enemy in your sites.  I did that.  I pointed my wpn at people who were playing POWs.  People who were playing enemy force.  People who were playing The Fantasian Army, or whoever we called them at that particular time, and place.  I also trained those under me, when it was my job, to pull that trigger to.  So, what I am saying is, in trg there ARE times you point your wpn when you are using blanks, or *militia bullets*, at the OPFOR/En Frce/call it what you want.  You do it to train your "battle shot".  While I understand some people will say they have never pointed their wpn at a person in trg, then I wonder if your trg was done correctly, and if you are being 100% honest with yourself.  Yes, we always used and watched for ALL the normal safety issues (wpn's safety, handling drills, safe distances, verification of ammo type, briefing/pyro demo's, trigger finger placement on the trigger guard, etc)

None of what I have written in the above para have any place in the video's I have now seen of certain people trg for TF 1-07, or have any relation to or intend to defend, support, or explain the actions of Cpl Wilcox. 

In the end, I feel for everyone who had a close, special place for Cpl Kevin Megeney in their hearts.  As I write this, I remember the words of his friend and platoon mate, who brought Kevin home, at his funeral.  I remember the look on the face of my friend and Cpl Megeney's Platoon WO that morning in the church, when I walked up front and sat down beside him and said "How you doin' man?", as I had no other words at the time.

It is my personal opinion that Cpl Wilcox gave up his chance to pay one last honour to a friend and fellow soldier he took the life of.  I've read the comments that he was only trying to defend himself from a harsher punishment, etc, and that I can understand from a logical point of view.  The "army guy" in me, however, has somewhat of a more harsh opinion of his actions and words of late.

As a former soldier in 36 CBG for 17 years how has known many good troops, NCOs, WOs and Officers from all the units involved, I doubt I'll ever be convinced that Cpl Wilcox was anything close to a *soldiers soldier*.  That isn't because he was a Reservist, or a poorly trained whatever.  He just never had the right stuff.  If I were him, I wouldn't be able to look at the face in the mirror when I shaved in the morning. 

I'll close with, what I believe, are the most meaningful words I can write to finish this post.




Rest In Peace Cpl Kevin Megeney.   

Rest In Peace

 

[Gunner98]

I've read on this thread that people haven't ever pointed their weapon at anyone in trg.  I'll be the first one to say that I HAVE, as the trg was for war, and in war people kill and are killed.  Trg includes, IMO, the mental conditioning to pull the trigger when you have the enemy in your sites.  I did that.  I pointed my wpn at people who were playing POWs.  People who were playing enemy force.  People who were playing The Fantasian Army, or whoever we called them at that particular time, and place.  I also trained those under me, when it was my job, to pull that trigger to.  So, what I am saying is, in trg there ARE times you point your wpn when you are using blanks, or *militia bullets*, at the OPFOR/En Frce/call it what you want.  You do it to train your "battle shot".  While I understand some people will say they have never pointed their wpn at a person in trg, then I wonder if your trg was done correctly, and if you are being 100% honest with yourself.  Yes, we always used and watched for ALL the normal safety issues (wpn's safety, handling drills, safe distances, verification of ammo type, briefing/pyro demo's, trigger finger placement on the trigger guard, etc)

And on all of these occasions you would (I hope) have used a Blank Firing Attachment which would permit you to safely do so.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

With one exception;  on BMQ/QL2/FELT/whatever BMQ was called over the years.

During the Safety/Pyro briefing and demo, one of the instructors would remove the BFA, and (at a safe distance/direction), fire a single blank round into a (usually) IMP box. 

The box would then be passed around for all the troops to see up close.  The reason for doing so is obvious, IMO.

 

[X-mo-1979]

When I read your post, my first thought was something I'll call the "Jarhead" defence.  You know, the part in the movie where buddy looses it and starts making the young Pte with the google-glasses repeat "this is my weapon..." with the wpn readied and pointed at him.

I'm sorry.I don't know what your trying to say here.Can you explain?I first thought of it as some form of insult,but alas through this media I sometimes find it hard to ascertain peoples point,without emotion etc.

I will reply to the rest of your post.During training we ALWAYS point our weapons and fire at human beings.It instills muscle memory and prepares the soldier for doing a deed of removing a target from the planet.I am really confused on what point your trying to make.I'm guessing your directing the Jarhead comment at the accused? (sorry...late night last night)

As in 37 Brigade, we in 1 bge also train with blanks when we can afford to have it.We also train in common sense.Pointing a weapon at your buddies head shows nothing more than childish and unprofessional soldiers.

I have no idea what transpired that day.Fact is a young man was killed,by another young man who was suppose to be a infanteer.A person who should be comfortable with the usage of all personal firearms.So comfortable they know what they can do.Not to mention to know when the darn this is clear.

The media paints a different picture for the Canadian pubic as per the norm.

I'm sure Mr Wilcox would love to take that day back and change it.However as my father told me when I got my first firearm (at a VERY young age) you can NEVER take a bullet back.That applied to me stopping from taking a poor shot on a animal,and waiting for an opportunity to kill it;not wound it.I also preached it during weapons class,and classes on PID (positive ident of target)in the military.

Guns are not fing toys.Homer put it simply "I just point this at what I want to die".Fact is Homer was right!Never point a weapon and pull the trigger unless you want the thing to die.

Unfortunately there are many people who are not 100% comfortable in the handling of weapons.My favorite was a MP who was ensuring we cleared our weapons properly before getting on the plane.He freaked when  I put my full mag back on my pistol to put the action forward (I have short fingers!).He then began to get into a speech about me almost having a ND...needless to say I snapped and explained the pistol drills to him in detail,and how it works...Until a Snr NCO overheard the problem hauled the MP off to the side.If you don't have weapons drills after how many months of training?years in the army?

This is a perfect professional development scenario for Snr NCO's. I can promise it will be brought up to my young guys as part of weapons classes.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'm sorry.I don't know what your trying to say here.Can you explain?I first thought of it as some form of insult,but alas through this media I sometimes find it hard to ascertain peoples point,without emotion etc.

Not an insult or directed at you at all.  What I meant (and didn't make clear) was the media trying to paint it as "two bored soldiers in a tent".  The Jarhead Defence comment was in reference to the movie, where they have been sitting in the desert for a long time, buddy gets loaded drunk, busted down to Pte and then freaks on his platoon mate with the "spn pointed at his head and ready" making him repeat the "this is my wpn" lines. 

That got me thinking someone in the media saw the movie and thought "hey I wonder if that is sorta what happened"...

I'm guessing your directing the Jarhead comment at the accused? (sorry...late night last night)

Not really...just the media for trying to make something it wasn't.

The media paints a different picture for the Canadian pubic as per the norm.

I'd like to say I am surprised, but mama told me not to lie.

 

[Greymatters]

Unfortunately there are many people who are not 100% comfortable in the handling of weapons.My favorite was a MP who was ensuring we cleared our weapons properly before getting on the plane.He freaked when  I put my full mag back on my pistol to put the action forward (I have short fingers!).He then began to get into a speech about me almost having a ND...needless to say I snapped and explained the pistol drills to him in detail,and how it works...Until a Snr NCO overheard the problem hauled the MP off to the side.If you don't have weapons drills after how many months of training?years in the army?  This is a perfect professional development scenario for Snr NCO's. I can promise it will be brought up to my young guys as part of weapons classes.

If it doesnt get too far off topic, why did your mag have to go back on the pistol? Its pretty much SOP to keep a mag off of any weapon while on any CF aircraft.  Or is this an example from a deployment?

 

[helpup]

helpup - do tell/qualify your statement, which CM are you referring to?

I didnt put the details down for a reason but I will qualify it a bit more.  During Solmolia there was a ND that resulted in death.  I knew both of them but the accused better then the other.  I was also an escort for his CM and partook in the proceeding's.  The accused did not try to wiggle out of what had happened.  It was one of his closest freinds who died. Orriginally I was not a fan of the sentance as there was not much the army could do to this guy that he was not doing to himself.  ( It also helped that he owned up to it)  The Civi lawyer was there in a hope to mitigate some of the fallout affecting this soldier and his family.  It didnt help.

This case though does not relate to the Pistol packer who in my view tried to duck and dodge to the point of doing a diservice to himself and the deceased. 

And I think it was last night that there was mention on the news about the "gun culture" of the military contributing to the incident.  I am not sure if that was mentioned by the defence or just a MSM's opinion on the whole thing.  Still made me shake my head.