CLS: From Arid CADPAT to Snowshoes

[safetysOff]

I love eating food from a cold paper pouch  :threat:

 

[canuck101]

When i read your response I get the mental image of someone saying " I love the smell and fell of wind chill in the morning" lol

 

[Fdtrucker]

If units are training Basic Winter Warfare and then having additional Trg Exercises in southern Canada and going above the 60th Parallel practicing Winter Warfare, then maybe those units should be looking at sending more MCpl/Sgt/WO/Lt onto the Advance Winter Warfare Course. This way they will have BWW/Training exercises and the Advance Course as experience. Being Qualified Advance Winter Warfare also qualifies that members as a Artic Advisor. If something is going wrong there is a qual member to put it on track.  Did my AWWC in Wainwright and NWT before it was moved to Trenton CFLAWC.

 

[pbi]

I think Jim Seggie will agree with the following...

Don't blame Afghhanistan for the shocking disappearance of winter warfare skills in the Army (especially the RegF). IMHO, this started long before any of us could find Kabul on a map. It was brought about nearly a decade before, by the emphasis on deployments to Yugo under the UN and then NATO, when the decision was taken to focus training more and more on TMST conducted in warmer locations in the US.

The skill fade didn't happen overnight: as a junior officer in the early '80's, I recall winter exercises in which all of 1 CMBG went to Wainwright (and later on, a couple of times Chilcoten) for almost a month under prairie winter conditions. We started at Level 1 or 2 trg, then moved up to at least Level 5 (occasionally 7). As well as the Bde exercises, when I was with 1PP (89-97)we did several annual AMF(L) deployments to NATO exercises in Norway while we had that role. All of these exercises were extremely expensive and they eventually ceased, but we always did something at unit level until probably the mid-late nineties or so, when it began to drop to company level training.

I was DCO of 1 PPCLI in 96/97. One day in the deep winter, the QMSI and I drove from Calgary down to the Crowsnest pass, where one of our companies was on exercise on land clearances. Walking around, we began to notice signs that all the many tricks and TTPs for winter ops that the QMSI and I had grown up with were lacking. I asked the CSM about snow defences. He told me that they weren't doing them because there was no longer any corporate knowledge on the skill set. Then, he went on to say something that surprised me: words to the effect probably only he and the CQMS knew anything whatsoever about winter ops. That comment stuck with me: I have to assume that things were similar in other RegF units.

After Yugo faded away, then came Afghanistan which (for understandable reasons) took the focus away from winter ops even further, making an already bad situation much worse. Although I've since left the RegF, I have no doubt that it will be a "start from square one" situation for most RegF units.

I'm glad to see that we've "remembered" that we live in a country that, in at least half of its huge extent, is cold, sparsely inhabited, and difficult to operate in for much of the year. Whether we think it's "interesting" or not is irrelevant.: it's our country and securing it is our first responsibility. Retention of Afghanistan veterans in the service is a very important goal, but we can't define our operational roles based on that. Whether these very valuable folks stay or go will, IMHO, be decided by the quality and intensity of the training they do, not by its geographic setting.

The world is changing, all the time, which means that our security situation will change. If history tells us one thing, it's that we never know what's coming next. Smug assumptions that  we'll "never" have to conduct Defence of Canada ops could always be proven wrong. On top of that, if we want to be taken seriously about our claims to sovereignty of our country, including the North, we need to demonstrate a capable joint response. To me, "joint" includes a credible Land component that can not just survive, but operate and if necessary, fight in severe cold weather conditions.

Cheers

 

[OldSolduer]

You thought right PBI, the skill fade started long before Afghanistan. I fully agree.

And I agree with Cdn Aviator - a great place to refine leadership skills.

 

[Kat Stevens]

In the 80's, Ex Rapier Thrust was my second favourite thing to do, after Ex Valley Run (bridge gallop).  I was very surprised when I returned to 1 CER from Germany in '92 that winter indoc was two nights of tent group routine in a Provincial park, and only unqualified pers were required to attend.  That's when the rot set in, we were more concerned with sending troops to Wainwright to do TCP training for some far off shit hole, than we were with training to defend our own Country.  Winter Warfare wasn't the only casualty either.  Bridge training for an Engineer Regiment in the 90's was non existent... if you didn't build them on course, you didn't build them at all.  Toward the end of my period of military employment, you would be hard pressed to find 4 SNCOs in the regiment I would have been comfortable on a bridge site with.  That peacekeeper label the sheeple love to toss around cost us dearly.

 

[GAP]

Soooo, given there's a lack of experience training, how did they do in Nfdld?

 

[Kat Stevens]

I didn't follow the Nld story too closely, but I'm sure they did well.  There is however a huge difference between a daylight build on a prepared site and a tactical bridge build when it's darker than the inside of a cow.

 

[PuckChaser]

My unit ran a winter warfare course last year.... it amounted to 2 days outside (one was improvised shelters which was awesome). Calling it "warfare" though is an insult, weapons were carried because that's the habit, and the troops only had 30 rounds of blank a piece.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I didn't follow the Nld story too closely, but I'm sure they did well.  There is however a huge difference between a daylight build on a prepared site and a tactical bridge build when it's darker than the inside of a cow.

We did well Kat, most of the build was during daylight but we also brought in flood lights to build into the wee hours of the morning.....and we spent days preparing the sites....which where very restrictive....

 

[Old Sweat]

Look, we, okay, you have got to start somewhere, and Square One seems as good as place as any. If that is a two day winter indoctrination course, so be it. It is two days more than the unit would have had if it had been decided that it was too difficult. It may take time, but the skills and corporate knowledge will be developed. Why not bring in a few of the old arctic foxes that are out there and pick their brains either sitting around a table or in a more formal setting?

The same thing could be said about all sorts of things that went by the wayside in the last couple of decades. The modern officers and troops aren't stupid, and with a bit of help can start to rebuild the lost skill sets.

One last thought. Our little army which was widely believed by outsiders to have concentrated on peacekeeping "somehow" managed to make the transition to war pretty well despite not having fought for two generations. By the logic I see in much of this thread, we should not have been able to do so. The behind the scenes concentration of fighting skills year after year after year was much of the reason. There is no reason today's army can't do the same with winter ops or amphibious ops or jungle ops or whatever; it will just take some time and some mistakes will be made. In the end, the effort will be bear fruit. It's like making sausages. The process is really frigging ugly, but the result is well worth the effort.

I will now crawl back in my hole and keep quiet.

 

[OldSolduer]

I concur with OS......it may be ugly, but the "end state" desired is to have an Army that can function in the cold. You don't HAVE to go to the Arctic to be cold. Try Shilo.

If anyone is interested, contact 38 Bde WRT Northern Bison.

 

[gun runner]

HAHAHAHAHA!

 

[George Wallace]

My unit ran a winter warfare course last year.... it amounted to 2 days outside (one was improvised shelters which was awesome). Calling it "warfare" though is an insult, weapons were carried because that's the habit, and the troops only had 30 rounds of blank a piece.

It is "warfare".  You have to know how to suvive in the cold and fight off the elements to stay warm and dry.  Then you have to know how to maintain your weapons and kit in the extreme cold so that they don't fail you when either Mother Nature or some human enemy tries to kill you.  It is "warfare".  It will not always be an IED, bomb or bullet from an enemy that kills you.  It could be the "Cold" and/or the "Wet" or perhaps "Fire" when some idiot lights a stove or lantern inside a tent and burns the Tent Group to the ground.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Look, we, okay, you have got to start somewhere, and Square One seems as good as place as any. If that is a two day winter indoctrination course, so be it. It is two days more than the unit would have had if it had been decided that it was too difficult. It may take time, but the skills and corporate knowledge will be developed. Why not bring in a few of the old arctic foxes that are out there and pick their brains either sitting around a table or in a more formal setting?

The same thing could be said about all sorts of things that went by the wayside in the last couple of decades. The modern officers and troops aren't stupid, and with a bit of help can start to rebuild the lost skill sets.

One last thought. Our little army which was widely believed by outsiders to have concentrated on peacekeeping "somehow" managed to make the transition to war pretty well despite not having fought for two generations. By the logic I see in much of this thread, we should not have been able to do so. The behind the scenes concentration of fighting skills year after year after year was much of the reason. There is no reason today's army can't do the same with winter ops or amphibious ops or jungle ops or whatever; it will just take some time and some mistakes will be made. In the end, the effort will be bear fruit. It's like making sausages. The process is really frigging ugly, but the result is well worth the effort.

I will now crawl back in my hole and keep quiet.

 

[pbi]

I concur with OS......it may be ugly, but the "end state" desired is to have an Army that can function in the cold. You don't HAVE to go to the Arctic to be cold. Try Shilo.

If anyone is interested, contact 38 Bde WRT Northern Bison.

Good point Jim. In my post I focused on the skill loss in the RegF, for a specific reason: I think it was worse there. As far as I know (based on my time as COS 38 CBG 2002-2005), the skill loss was not as bad in the Army Reserve, as their training was not as heavily slaved to the op roto cycle as the RegF. As Jim points out, 38 CBG maintained a respectable level of skill in this area, and for a while ran a Winter Warfare course that was (IIRC) accredited by LFWATC. Of course, living in SK/MB/NW ONT helps you to take winter a bit more seriously...


I also agree with Old Sweat: what was lost can be regained. Even us old guys weren't born knowing how to pack a toboggan or build a snow shelter: somebody taught us. The Army can gather the expertise in from those who still know, from our Rangers, from old manuals, and from other countries who train for it. With that we can create training cadres, and start again. Canadian soldiers can learn to anything well if they put their minds to it.

Cheers

 

[Kat Stevens]

Weird. I had a nice long winded post there, luckily for you all it seems not to have made it.  It was awesome, trust me.

 

[daftandbarmy]

There may be some here who will disagree, but in terms of arctic operations, the 'skill fade' will have the biggest impact on operational effectiveness in the A & B Echelons, plus other more complex support needs.

You can train up and equip a rifle company pretty quick to do what's required in the cold. It's harder to make sure that you can exist longer than a week or so, which is where the echelon being equipped and trained properly comes in. E.g., the helicopters, my Gawd, the things you need to do to keep those things flying at mega sub-zero temps just isn't worth thinking about (for an infantryrman that is, it hurts my brain).

 

[Old Sweat]

Here is an indication of how quickly a major skill that altered our way of doing things can be mastered. In late 1964 the first M113A1s arrived in 4 CIBG and were issued to 1 PPCLI. Much of 1965 and 1966 was devoted to training in the operation of the APCs and in the platoon and company formations and tactics, along with cooperation with the armoured regiment. It really meant that the infantry, which had moved and thought at a speed Marlborough and Wellington would have been comfortable with, had to undergo a major shift. This was also true for the other arms. Anyway, in the fall of 1966 the brigade took part in a division exercise as part of 1 (BR) Corps. This included an assault water crossing of a major obstacle - the Weser River, I think - which saw 2 RCR swim all four "rifle" companies across under tactical conditions. The battalion had rotated to Germany over the winter of 1965-1966, so it only had had several months to master the new role.

 

[pbi]

There may be some here who will disagree, but in terms of arctic operations, the 'skill fade' will have the biggest impact on operational effectiveness in the A & B Echelons, plus other more complex support needs...
You can train up and equip a rifle company pretty quick to do what's required in the cold. It's harder to make sure that you can exist longer than a week or so, which is where the echelon being equipped and trained properly comes in. E.g., the helicopters, my Gawd, the things you need to do to keep those things flying at mega sub-zero temps just isn't worth thinking about (for an infantryrman that is, it hurts my brain).

Very good point. CSS soldiers have to be soldiers first, but effective supporters right after that. Having commanded Admin Coy/1PP on a winter exercise in Wainwright when windchill took us down to about -50, I agree completely. As an example, one very cold night, the main generator unit that was lighting the  camp (and powering heaters, etc.), failed. As a result, while almost everybody was asleep, things began to freeze up, including the main generator itself, other generators, heaters, etc. That isn't funny when it gets very cold. Of course, once you get below -25, unheated diesel will start to gel, which poses its own set of problems. Our veh techs managed to get one generator inside a repair van, thaw it out, and then use it to power up a single heater. From there, we gradually got everything thawed out and going again. Good thing nobody was trying to kill us at the same time. (Although some people probably wanted to...)

The other problem that you face with CSS folks is that while almost everybody in a rifle coy has a solid Army field background, that isn't the case with all of your support people, esp in Log and Med. Even though I found them to be excellent and hard working folks for the most part, sometimes you had to start from square one just to teach them about life in the Army. Add surviving under winter conditions to that and it can be a challenge, never mind doing support or combat tasks.

Cheers